Around the League 2022-23 season thread - part II

[Bleedred]

I certainly respect everyone's religion. And no matter how terrible your beliefs are on any subject, I think you have a right to have them. I learned long ago that you can't change people's beliefs, no matter how ugly they are. And I would never attack or belittle someone's religious beliefs.

But I always think of the Vito storyline from the The Sopranos when this type of thing comes up. I remember how disgusted they were, particularly Phil and his wife were over Vito's homosexuality and having a gay in the family. And Phil's wife saying ''Father says if he doesn't repent, he's damned to hell'' and I always thought ''What the f*** man? You people are murderers, thieves. most of you are adulterers, You belong with the lousiest of lousy human beings in the afterlife. You don't actually believe you're damned to hell?''.

Of course, this is not a real life example, but there's plenty of that in real life as well. I've experienced plenty of that.

 

[NJDevs26]

What LGBT rights were actually violated, when he decided not to don the themed jersey? I think we tend to get sucked into this over-socialization feedback model and conflate feelings with right violations.

None, I’m saying the fact we view nights like this as political is ridiculous.

Now, do I believe the owners and the league are completely altruistic here? Of course not, it certainly drives publicity and makes them a little money with the specialized jerseys…guess what, more than one thing can be true. You can do something commendable and still make money from it.

 

[Bleedred]

Things like race, sexuality, gender, etc, those have always been human issues to me and not political. We just made them political.

They've just been made political. But in a way I guess they always been political, but I don't see them as such, or at least I don't believe they should be seen as such.

I've never been registered to vote and I won't ever be. I probably couldn't force myself to vote, as I know I'd be voting for someone that has at least one policy that would piss me off.

 

[Tundra]

None, I’m saying the fact we view nights like this as political is ridiculous.

Now, do I believe the owners and the league are completely altruistic here? Of course not, it certainly drives publicity and makes them a little money with the specialized jerseys…guess what, more than one thing can be true. You can do something commendable and still make money from it.

I think the military pageantry at sport events is highly political, but most have been brow beaten to accept it. The DoD doesn't spend millions on the Super Bowl because they love the troops. I sense a similar undercurrent with this Pride Night and the various incarnations.

 

[Satans Hockey]

i always find it funny with military stuff. like this guy/gal went to fight for our freedoms and lifestyle to choose this and that. now you MUST stand and not have a choice to support them

I've seen plenty of people not stand, they are certainly in the minority when it happens but I've definitely seen it.

And I'm curious why it would be a thing to him now when these nights have been taking place for years, presumably meaning he's worn the warmup jersey in the past.

I was trying to find out the answer to this, from what I saw this is apparently the first time the Flyers actually wore jerseys, in the past it was optional pride tape.

 

[MartyOwns]

I think the military pageantry at sport events is highly political, but most have been brow beaten to accept it. The DoD doesn't spend millions on the Super Bowl because they love the troops. I sense a similar undercurrent with this Pride Night and the various incarnations.

yeah they’re the same, except one is jingoistic nonsense supporting a country-invading military that is soulless, over budget and morally bankrupt and the other is about diversity and inclusion.

 

[Satans Hockey]

I will say that I don't think sports teams do all these different themed nights because they actually care about the topic, they do it because they think it will get them more $$$ in the future by attracting more fans, merch, etc. They certainly wouldn't have these nights if they thought it would hurt their bottom line.

This is an old tweet from 2015 that Vince McMahon's daughter still has up and it sums it up best to me as to how I think sports teams view these topics...

 

[Saugus]

I think the military pageantry at sport events is highly political, but most have been brow beaten to accept it. The DoD doesn't spend millions on the Super Bowl because they love the troops. I sense a similar undercurrent with this Pride Night and the various incarnations.

How do you mean? I see the military boosterism as somewhat different.

For starters, there isn't some government Department of Gay Dudes that is sponsoring these Pride Nights, not unless Buttigieg has made some really big changes at Transportation.

But seriously, the owners do these nights because they see a market opportunity among the likely majority of their fanbase that are pro-LGBT. That market opportunity also exists to an extent with the subset of fans who appreciate military theme nights, but the difference is that the DoD (as you mentioned) pays them handsomely for the advertising and recruitment assistance also.

 

[HBK27]

I still have yet to see anyone adequately articulate what exactly is the just cause Provorov ‘believes’ in that isn’t something negative when you protest a hockey for all night.

And the fact LGBT rights are viewed as ‘political’ is everything that’s wrong with society now.

He didn't protest a hockey night for all, but just didn't participate within it. I think there is a notable difference.

As far as the why behind his decision - that's difficult to say, as he hasn't really spoken much on the topic. He deferred to religious beliefs, which may or may not be the case. Assuming it is, it could be as simple as not wanting to support a lifestyle that is viewed in his religion as sinful. Can he hold this belief (if that is the case, again this is just speculation) and still treat those in the LGBT community with respect and want to see them have equal rights? I believe so, though I speculate many others don't. Can he also hold this belief while falling short in several aspects in his own personal life versus what he should be doing according to his own religion? Again, I think so as nobody is perfect nor is perfection demanded as part of a religion, but others will say this is a form of hypocrisy.

There could also be other reasons, such as not supporting all aspects of what the current LGBTQ+ movement has become, but who knows. Maybe he really is actually hateful and homophobic - can't rule that out either.

None, I’m saying the fact we view nights like this as political is ridiculous.

Now, do I believe the owners and the league are completely altruistic here? Of course not, it certainly drives publicity and makes them a little money with the specialized jerseys…guess what, more than one thing can be true. You can do something commendable and still make money from it.

I don't think pride night is intended to be political by NHL clubs and I do support the intent...but the broader issue certainly has become politicized IMO and it was only a matter of time until it spilled over into nights like these. It's not a black-and-white, you're either for us or against us issue. As with most anything, it's a lot more nuanced and complex than that and probably something that we can't really get into with any great detail on these boards.

 

[PizzaAndPucks]

I try to respect other people's religion but when their beliefs aren't really morally right or are hateful of others that are different than I can't really respect them. It's crazy how today some Christian churches are welcoming to the LGBTQ community accepting them where as 10 years ago that wasn't really the case. I'm sure it all came down to image and the fact that more people attending their church would equate to them bringing in more money somehow. If Provorov wants to stand for what he believes in than I'm not gonna hate the guy. He's an adult and can make his own choice , it doesn't necessarily mean it's right but that is why we have freedom in this country. I just find religion to be pretty awful at times.

 

[SteveCangialosi123]

yeah they’re the same, except one is jingoistic nonsense supporting a country-invading military that is soulless, over budget and morally bankrupt and the other is about diversity and inclusion.

Sometimes there is an intersection of these causes. The military wants rainbow drone operators and cannon fodder too. Just as these businesses don’t really care about any subgroup, they just want more people to buy their shit.

 

[Tundra]

How do you mean? I see the military boosterism as somewhat different.

For starters, there isn't some government Department of Gay Dudes that is sponsoring these Pride Nights, not unless Buttigieg has made some really big changes at Transportation.

But seriously, the owners do these nights because they see a market opportunity among the likely majority of their fanbase that are pro-LGBT. That market opportunity also exists to an extent with the subset of fans who appreciate military theme nights, but the difference is that the DoD (as you mentioned) pays them handsomely for the advertising and recruitment assistance also.

I just view it as a disingenuous corporate money grab that's driven by the league office in Toronto. And it's way over the top like the military stuff. Overtly.

 

[NJDevs26]

I don’t even see the military boosterism as ‘political’ because everyone should support the military in general…what it is, is basically a well funded special interest group. I don’t see the real issue with standing silently for a minute but if you don’t want to stand still for the anthem then walk the concourse or whatever, you’re not going to be forced to stand any more than the jerks who chant Let’s Go Rangers during the anthem get thrown in fan jail.

 

[TrufleShufle]

I don't care about people not standing or coming out for the anthem and I don't care too much about this. My views on what should be done in each situation aside, it's what's happening here and everywhere else in social media/new outlets that give it legs, both good and bad.

Weird way to make my point that is going to make sound like I'm making a different point all together, but I would bet anything 10x more people in the LGBT community now know that the Flyers honored them that night than would have if he just put the jersey on.

 

[HBK27]

I try to respect other people's religion but when their beliefs aren't really morally right or are hateful of others that are different than I can't really respect them. It's crazy how today some Christian churches are welcoming to the LGBTQ community accepting them where as 10 years ago that wasn't really the case. I'm sure it all came down to image and the fact that more people attending their church would equate to them bringing in more money somehow. If Provorov wants to stand for what he believes in than I'm not gonna hate the guy. He's an adult and can make his own choice , it doesn't necessarily mean it's right but that is why we have freedom in this country. I just find religion to be pretty awful at times.

I agree that religion can be awful at times, but in this particular instance I would need to see the dots connected a bit more as to how not participating in pride night and wearing a rainbow jersey equates to being hateful of others. I'm not ruling it out and I know very little about Provorov's religion, but there seems to be this jump to conclusions that his decision must've been driven by hate and/or bigotry.

Keep in mind, this was not something Provorov asked for. He didn't bring up the issue and go out of his way to say anything negative about the LBGTQ+ community - he was forced in a position where he had to make a decision on an issue that he seemingly has strong, yet unpopular, beliefs on.

 

[BahlDeep]

Using your religion as an excuse to be prejudice against a certain group of people born a certain way is bull shit no matter what full stop. Doesnt matter where you are from and what excuses you make.

Not wearing a sweater isn't a prejudice against anyone. That's completely unreasonable.

 

[SteveCangialosi123]

I don’t even see the military boosterism as ‘political’ because everyone should support the military in general…what it is, is basically a well funded special interest group. I don’t see the real issue with standing silently for a minute but if you don’t want to stand still for the anthem then you can always walk the concourse

This is sadly true given the narrow spectrum of our political system. And that has had disastrous consequences for everyone on earth, but I’m getting off topic.

 

[NJDevs26]

Not wearing a sweater isn't a prejudice against anyone. That's completely unreasonable.

It’s a tacit approval (or at least looking the other way) of said prejudice.

 

[Tundra]

It’s a tacit approval (or at least looking the other way) of said prejudice.

Possibly, but now you are getting into the weeds of thought crime.

 

[MartyOwns]

i really hope a player refuses to wear a special warmup jersey at the next hockey fights cancer event

 

[HBK27]

It’s a tacit approval (or at least looking the other way) of said prejudice.

That's a stretch.

 

[BahlDeep]

I said it on the mainboard and I will say it here also.

I'm from a Muslim background, I don't impose my views/beliefs on anyone. I don't expect views/beliefs should be imposed on me.

I'm not out there hunting anyone. You are free to have your own orientation and this won't make me think less of you as a human being.

 

[Tundra]

Given how hyper-political society has become, I'd guess that certain targets of opportunity will be pressed further by the local press corps. There could be a domino effect that occurs. You may have another Provorov pop up. In fact, the Russians, Americans and Western Canadians are most likely to harbor these thoughts.

 

[BahlDeep]

It’s a tacit approval (or at least looking the other way) of said prejudice.

So if I don't wear something to support a specific cause, I'm automatically committing prejudice?

In the grand scheme of everything, this is all virtue signalling.

 

[Tundra]

More importantly, where does Don Cherry stand on all this? Provorov is a no good Russian.