Around the League - 2022-23 season thread part I

[youryeah]

I didn't realize how well the young guns of the habs have been playing

issue is everyone else... kinda hasn't been playing well lol. should be a fun game tomorrow night though. I'm excited to see slaf for a full game

 

[njdevils1982]

As I understand it the cap hit remains but the actual cash payout is subject to escrow so not all of it ultimately gets paid and the payments get suspended if there is a lockout as opposed to signing bonuses which get paid even in the event of lockout.

so it doesnt matter how much the signing bonus vs salary is.....the cap is same..

thats what i thought

but then there are overages for stats based bonus if players reach them...i dont if any of our guys have that

 

[HBK27]

im trying to understand how 50/50 split of signing bonus to salary keeps the cap hit down?

The cap hit remains the same regardless of the split. However, players receive 100% of signing bonus money compared to a percentage of actual salary - I’m not sure of the exact percentage as it varies year-by-year and I don’t think it’s ever formally announced, but players do lose a significant chunk of salary due to escrow and getting to the 50/50 owner/player split.

So, net value of a contract goes up the higher the signing bonuses are. Thus, some players may be willing to lower the AAV of a contract in exchange for more more signing bonus money as they look at net value.

 

[njdevils1982]

The cap hit remains the same regardless of the split. However, players receive 100% of signing bonus money compared to a percentage of actual salary - I’m not sure of the exact percentage as it varies year-by-year and I don’t think it’s ever formally announced, but players do lose a significant chunk of salary due to escrow and getting to the 50/50 owner/player split.

So, net value of a contract goes up the higher the signing bonuses are. Thus, some players may be willing to lower the AAV of a contract in exchange for more more signing bonus money as they look at net value.

thats what i thought but the way you worded the 50/50 ("to help keep down his cap number") was confusing

 

[Guttersniped]

Sometimes I wonder how much of coaching is just psychologically messing with the players. I think that was part of the reason why Larry Robinson enjoyed being an assistant more than a head coach. He could help the players out without the mind games.

Mike Rupp told an amusing story about getting called up as a rookie in 2003 and Pat Burns chewed him out during an intermission in front of the team. Rupp was confused since he was a 4th liner who barely got any ice time. After Burns left the room, Joe Nieuwendyk told Rupp something like "Don't worry about it rook, he's just yelling at you because he's already yelled at everybody else."

Feel like Sutter is demoting Huberdeau to try to get him going. Some coaches seem to relish to see if a player responds to negative reinforcement. Huberdeau also might not be 100%, he was just in a walking boot last week and couldn't put on a skate.

I don’t think players particularly like coaches who lean too heavy on the power of mind games. (Or at all really.)

That’s what sunk Babcock in the end both in Toronto and the NHL.

Alain Vigneault managed to have multiple teams trade players because his relationship was so toxic with them (JT Miller in NY, Voracek in Philly) ironically months before they fired him.

Laviolette seems to be a guy who does that too but the prick is still working, so go figure (I obviously don’t have a lot of info to go on, but personally not a fan of his).

And despite his public rep, generally players reportedly really like Tortorella because he’s so straight forward and talks directly to them. He never bullshits them.

To circle back to AV, I loved the rumors that he and certain Flyers only communicated through assistant coaches by the end of his reign. Heh.

 

[Guttersniped]

The cap hit remains the same regardless of the split. However, players receive 100% of signing bonus money compared to a percentage of actual salary - I’m not sure of the exact percentage as it varies year-by-year and I don’t think it’s ever formally announced, but players do lose a significant chunk of salary due to escrow and getting to the 50/50 owner/player split.

So, net value of a contract goes up the higher the signing bonuses are. Thus, some players may be willing to lower the AAV of a contract in exchange for more more signing bonus money as they look at net value.

Signing bonuses are also effected by escrow, just the same as escrow. That’s why many contracts went from being front loaded to middle-loaded with bigger signing bonuses. Players wanted to avoid the current giant escrow payments.

Players like them because it makes their contract but out proof and it’s simply preferable to get your money in one giant lump sum in the summer rather than as a salary every month during the season like some lunch box swinging chump.

IIRC one thing it does not affect is AHL salaries and I believe that includes guys on 1 way deals.

Amusingly when all the players agreed to give up their last checks in 2019-20 (I think that was when it happened) to help out with COVID losses, the guys who got paid through signing bonus obviously didn’t contribute much. I think they worked out something to make them cough up more money in the end. (If you care more than I do you can Google it to learn more exciting COVID-era league financial lore.)

 

[Guttersniped]

One thing that did screw the escrow up was the two “free” compliance buyouts in 2013 and 2014.

Those buyouts took millions of dollars out of the owners revenue, but since it didn’t count against the cap, the players’ escrow was responsible for it.

LTIR and performance bonuses add to it too but the buyouts added a ridiculous amount to it. The players should have never agreed to that.

 

[Bleedred]

I don’t think players particularly like coaches who lean too heavy on the power of mind games. (Or at all really.)

That’s what sunk Babcock in the end both in Toronto and the NHL.

Alain Vigneault managed to have multiple teams trade players because his relationship was so toxic with them (JT Miller in NY, Voracek in Philly) ironically months before they fired him.

Laviolette seems to be a guy who does that too but the prick is still working, so go figure (I obviously don’t have a lot of info to go on, but personally not a fan of his).

And despite his public rep, generally players reportedly really like Tortorella because he’s so straight forward and talks directly to them. He never bullshits them.

To circle back to AV, I loved the rumors that he and certain Flyers only communicated through assistant coaches by the end of his reign. Heh.

AV is probably the most overrated head coach of the last 20 years. I don't think he was ever any good. But all it takes is one team to hire him because he speaks French and it gets his foot in the door, then a few years later another org (Vancouver) decides to give him a crack and he lucks into an HOF goaltender in his prime who walks in the door at the same time. Never mind another goalie down the road in the same city that could have been an all time great if not for physically falling apart. A goalie we're all familiar with.

And then he ends up with the Rangers with yet ANOTHER hall of fame goalie.

And there you have it, AV looks like a good head coach. He appears to be a good head coach. Then he gets fired after said HOF goalie starts to decline, there's a big surprise, right?

Then he goes to Philly, only he didn't have an HOF goalie there or really an HOF anything, other than Giroux who might get in. He did have a good year from Carter Hart and that's probably why he got a third year there (or the start of one) after his second season went so bad.

Babcock is probably somewhat overrated too, but I think he actually was good at one time, but his Leafs tenure and the way he coached in the playoffs in what I think was his last year there? That probably ruined him a bit. He was probably good at one time, but he also had hall of famers. Loads of them in Detroit and probably a couple future ones in Toronto.

And then somehow he lucked into the Detroit job after Anaheim. I mean, Anaheim did win the cup a couple years after he left, so if he stayed there he could have won the cup anyway, but Detroit was a bit more successful for a few more years longer than that Ducks team was. Of course the Ducks had a resurgence later on after some down years, when the bottom was falling out in Detroit and Babcock was already in Toronto, but Anaheim was getting pretty meh a couple years after the cup. Whereas Detroit was still making the playoffs every year under him (I'm not saying it was or wasn't because of him) and they went to back to back SCF's and were usually making the second round in the couple years before and after those cup finals.

Of all the teams that could have hired him after Anaheim, it just so happens that Detroit bring him into their lap. He didn't get fired by Anaheim, I think he just decided not re-sign there. I'm not sure if the Detroit offer was already on the table and he chose there or not.

I think he's basically been blacklisted from the league after the Marner incident and too much slimy shit has come out about him. Johan Franzen went off about him a couple years ago. Between player abuse claims and all that, I think he's pretty much done. It might be forgotten about at some point, but he'll be too old by then and I'm not sure he'll be a hot commodity by that point.

AV just sucks and I think the NHL knows that now. I don't think he'll coach again either. Not as a head coach. I don't think he's ever been an assistant at the NHL level?

I had to look it up, he was an assistant for expansion Ottawa, but that was almost 30 years and 4 head coaching jobs ago.

 

[njdevils1982]

AV is probably the most overrated head coach of the last 20 years. I don't think he was ever any good. But all it takes is one team to hire him because he speaks French and it gets his foot in the door, then a few years later another org (Vancouver) decides to give him a crack and he lucks into an HOF goaltender in his prime who walks in the door at the same time. Never mind another goalie down the road in the same city that could have been an all time great if not for physically falling apart. A goalie we're all familiar with.

And then he ends up with the Rangers with yet ANOTHER hall of fame goalie.

And there you have it, AV looks like a good head coach. He appears to be a good head coach. Then he gets fired after said HOF goalie starts to decline, there's a big surprise, right?

Then he goes to Philly, only he didn't have an HOF goalie there or really an HOF anything, other than Giroux who might get in. He did have a good year from Carter Hart and that's probably why he got a third year there (or the start of one) after his second season went so bad.

Babcock is probably somewhat overrated too, but I think he actually was good at one time, but his Leafs tenure and the way he coached in the playoffs in what I think was his last year there? That probably ruined him a bit. He was probably good at one time, but he also had hall of famers. Loads of them in Detroit and probably a couple future ones in Toronto.

And then somehow he lucked into the Detroit job after Anaheim. I mean, Anaheim did win the cup a couple years after he left, so if he stayed there he could have won the cup anyway, but Detroit was a bit more successful for a few more years longer than that Ducks team was. Of course the Ducks had a resurgence later on after some down years, when the bottom was falling out in Detroit and Babcock was already in Toronto, but Anaheim was getting pretty meh a couple years after the cup. Whereas Detroit was still making the playoffs every year under him (I'm not saying it was or wasn't because of him) and they went to back to back SCF's and were usually making the second round in the couple years before and after those cup finals.

Of all the teams that could have hired him after Anaheim, it just so happens that Detroit bring him into their lap. He didn't get fired by Anaheim, I think he just decided not re-sign there. I'm not sure if the Detroit offer was already on the table and he chose there or not.

I think he's basically been blacklisted from the league after the Marner incident and too much slimy shit has come out about him. Johan Franzen went off about him a couple years ago. Between player abuse claims and all that, I think he's pretty much done. It might be forgotten about at some point, but he'll be too old by then and I'm not sure he'll be a hot commodity by that point.

AV just sucks and I think the NHL knows that now. I don't think he'll coach again either. Not as a head coach. I don't think he's ever been an assistant at the NHL level?

I had to look it up, he was an assistant for expansion Ottawa, but that was almost 30 years and 4 head coaching jobs ago.

what about this sens coach and scout.

 

[Forge]

I didn't realize how well the young guns of the habs have been playing

View attachment 607991

issue is everyone else... kinda hasn't been playing well lol. should be a fun game tomorrow night though. I'm excited to see slaf for a full game

Dach is the only surprising one. I figured Caufield could hit 40 goals as soon as this year and Suzuki has always been good.

They moved Dach to wing, I believe, plopped him on a line with the other two and bingo bango.

 

[Bleedred]

what about this sens coach and scout.

Weird

Just a few days ago after Peter McNab passed away, I remember thinking back to his time here with Doc and I remember thinking ''What was Chico up to those few years between retirement and joining the broadcast team in 96? Didn't he coach somewhere for some team? What team was it? I forgot. I know it wasn't any of the teams he played for. Was it one of the expansion teams?''.

It's just so strange that I was just thinking about this the other day.

 

[njdevils1982]

Weird

Just a few days ago after Peter McNab passed away, I remember thinking back to his time here with Doc and I remember thinking ''What was Chico up to those few years between retirement and joining the broadcast team in 96? Didn't he coach somewhere for some team? What team was it? I forgot. I know it wasn't any of the teams he played for. Was it one of the expansion teams?''.

It's just so strange that I was just thinking about this the other day.

it's because i bugged your brain.... i know what you think. *cue twillight zone theme music from 80's ...the grateful dead one*

 

[bossram]

AV is probably the most overrated head coach of the last 20 years.

Babcock is probably somewhat overrated too, but I think he actually was good at one time,

Of all the teams that could have hired him after Anaheim, it just so happens that Detroit bring him into their lap. He didn't get fired by Anaheim, I think he just decided not re-sign there. I'm not sure if the Detroit offer was already on the table and he chose there or not.

AV just sucks and I think the NHL knows that now. I don't think he'll coach again either. Not as a head coach. I don't think he's ever been an assistant at the NHL level?

In Vancouver at least, AV was a pretty good and innovative coach. He leaned into extreme zone start deployment quite early, and the PP tactics were, at the time, very new to the league. He was also able to completely transition the team's style of play from a trap team when he first took over, to a rush-based transition chance team (at Gillis' request). He got the most out of his top players (Sedins, Kesler, Edler, Ehrhoff, Hamhuis, Bieksa).

It kinda went downhill after that.

Babcock seems way more overrated to me. He just continually assumed the job with already competitive teams, and they won in spite of his strange decisions. He's also known for the borderline abuse of his players (Franzen and Marner incidents). His reputation was basically built off being gifted the job for the best cap era team of all time and team Canada. A scarecrow could win behind the bench of those teams.

I also think putting Huberdeau with Lewis is dumb, but to be fair, Sutter has tried to stick with the Huberdeau - Lindholm - Toffoli combination and it simply hasn't worked.

In the absence of scoring, I can see some rationale for Sutter just trying to build four competent lines that can hopefully play to a draw.

Yeah I agree, it's easy to coach when your goalie is on a heater and you have probably the best line in the league. He doesn't have those things now though.

Sutter's line changes seem to have got something out of the club. Every line contributed.

 

[markog]

Laine out 3-4 weeks. Columbus will have an upper hand on having the worst record with already being bad and without Laine and Werenski plus teams like Arizona, Chicago, Philadelphia and Montreal already banked more points than anyone would think. For now only Anaheim is worse.

 

[HBK27]

Signing bonuses are also effected by escrow, just the same as escrow. That’s why many contracts went from being front loaded to middle-loaded with bigger signing bonuses. Players wanted to avoid the current giant escrow payments.

Players like them because it makes their contract but out proof and it’s simply preferable to get your money in one giant lump sum in the summer rather than as a salary every month during the season like some lunch box swinging chump.

IIRC one thing it does not affect is AHL salaries and I believe that includes guys on 1 way deals.

Amusingly when all the players agreed to give up their last checks in 2019-20 (I think that was when it happened) to help out with COVID losses, the guys who got paid through signing bonus obviously didn’t contribute much. I think they worked out something to make them cough up more money in the end. (If you care more than I do you can Google it to learn more exciting COVID-era league financial lore.)

Have signing bonuses always been impacted by escrow or is this something that has changed? Or maybe I just misunderstood how this all worked, because I was under the impression that signing bonuses were a bit of a loophole for players to lower the amount of money they lose to escrow.

I wasn't able to find much information on it, though the article below mentions that "Per the MOU, signing bonuses and player performance bonuses are not included when calculating escrow which is presently set at 20 percent of a player's salary before taxes for the upcoming season."

NHL 2021: Explaining escrow, deferred payments and how it can impact the upcoming season | Sporting News

NHL 2021: How escrow, deferred payments could impact the upcoming season

www.sportingnews.com

I thought this is why many prominent players, particularly those in large markets, were structuring their contracts to maximize signing bonuses.

A few examples:
* McDavid - $86M out of $100M paid in signing bonuses
* Matthews - $54.52M / $58.195M
* Marner - $61M / $61.54M
* Tavares - $70.9M / $77M
* Panarin - $74.5M / $81.5M
* MacKinnon...his contract seems to be the opposite of lockout proof, as he only has a high base salary during the potential lockout year.

Gaudreau's contract with Columbus is structured to give a flat $2M in signing bonuses and $7.75M in salary each season, which is a bit surprising as well.

I think that signing bonuses should be subject to escrow just like salary, as it benefits big market teams if it's not. Just not sure if that's actually the case.

 

[Guttersniped]

Have signing bonuses always been impacted by escrow or is this something that has changed? Or maybe I just misunderstood how this all worked, because I was under the impression that signing bonuses were a bit of a loophole for players to lower the amount of money they lose to escrow.

I wasn't able to find much information on it, though the article below mentions that "Per the MOU, signing bonuses and player performance bonuses are not included when calculating escrow which is presently set at 20 percent of a player's salary before taxes for the upcoming season."

NHL 2021: Explaining escrow, deferred payments and how it can impact the upcoming season | Sporting News

NHL 2021: How escrow, deferred payments could impact the upcoming season

www.sportingnews.com

I thought this is why many prominent players, particularly those in large markets, were structuring their contracts to maximize signing bonuses.

A few examples:
* McDavid - $86M out of $100M paid in signing bonuses
* Matthews - $54.52M / $58.195M
* Marner - $61M / $61.54M
* Tavares - $70.9M / $77M
* Panarin - $74.5M / $81.5M
* MacKinnon...his contract seems to be the opposite of lockout proof, as he only has a high base salary during the potential lockout year.

View attachment 608137

Gaudreau's contract with Columbus is structured to give a flat $2M in signing bonuses and $7.75M in salary each season, which is a bit surprising as well.

I think that signing bonuses should be subject to escrow just like salary, as it benefits big market teams if it's not. Just not sure if that's actually the case.

I knew I should have kept my mouth (fingers?) shut, I hate this shit.

I swear to god I remembered at some point discovering that the bonuses were whacked in some way by escrow but I’m googling around and don’t see it. Brain worms? Only science knows.

Well I got you to make this nice presentation for the board so everyone wins lol.

God this stuff is dreary I gave up on the google search forever.

 

[JrFischer54]

I didn't realize how well the young guns of the habs have been playing

View attachment 607991

issue is everyone else... kinda hasn't been playing well lol. should be a fun game tomorrow night though. I'm excited to see slaf for a full game

dach having a nice start. always willing to give a struggling kid a second chance on a different team before writing them off.

 

[Eggtimer]

dach having a nice start. always willing to give a struggling kid a second chance on a different team before writing them off.

I’m glad for Dach but it sucks that Habs fans here go on and on about how brilliant the trade was and how their management group is so great…
It is borderline sickening. Habs fans around here thunk they are done the rebuild probably next year. Have the best prospects in the league… my favourite take is that Guhle is as good or better prospect than Luke….

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

this CANNOT be real.

 

[My3Sons]

I’m glad for Dach but it sucks that Habs fans here go on and on about how brilliant the trade was and how their management group is so great…
It is borderline sickening. Habs fans around here thunk they are done the rebuild probably next year. Have the best prospects in the league… my favourite take is that Guhle is as good or better prospect than Luke….

For whatever reason, the MTL and VAN fans have a higher percentage of insecurity as a group compared to the other Canadian fanbases in my unscientific observation. To be fair, you can probably find similar fans if you look at some NFL fanbases in the States.

 

[Guttersniped]

this CANNOT be real.

The lady’s point was more about how rare and special it is staying with one team your whole career if you have that opportunity, particularly as a top pick. She started with Nico as a contemporary example but mentioned the Pens trio in terms of what they meant to her growing up as a fan.

Then the dope with the hat earnestly says “it could be that Laf, Kakko & Fox are the next Crosby, Malkin & Letang” and the clip immediately cuts off before the other two have to awkwardly react that statement, which does sound super silly.

Obviously Fox is locked up but the other two could easily not only not end up Rangers For Life but also not be on the Rangers in a few years if they don’t produce more. The lady is being all rainbows and sunshine for suggesting that it’s up to the players to decide that.

I saved you 2:20 of your time, you’re welcome.

 

[Guttersniped]

For whatever reason, the MTL and VAN fans have a higher percentage of insecurity as a group compared to the other Canadian fanbases in my unscientific observation. To be fair, you can probably find similar fans if you look at some NFL fanbases in the States.

A portion of the Vancouver fanbase stand out as extra impossibly delusional to meand I can’t figure out why they would.

Even this off-season some were endlessly pumping that solid forward core as the best in the NHL (nope) and the team as a play off team (very unlikely with an absolute garbage defense).

I still treasure one poster claiming that if they got one “minute munching RHD” (presumably to play with Quinn” they would be a Cup Contender. Yes, you read that right and they weren’t kidding.

Other fans of losing teams just don’t do that. It’s not 2011 fellas.

For example in contrast, Ottawa fans were shocked that they liked Dorian’s moves for once but they mainly could only muster a mild mixture of hope and dread (while defending the quality of their players). That was the right move. Same shitty 8 year experience for both teams but only one is way more prone to delusion.

And Vancouver is a lovely city but some of them but talk it up like they work for the Ministry of Tourism.

I guess I’m just used the NYC mindset where it’s assumed it’s the center of the universe and you don’t have to call it a “world class city” and tell people where it ranked on polls and real estate prices etc.

If you simply realize that Montreal fanbase has the same drama as high school girl cliques it starts to make sense. It’s more that.

A good portion of their fans seem to really believe that people hate any prospect once they become Montreal prospects.

They really do lean into that victimization theory in an uncomfortable way in the prospects board and it’s wild. It’s even funnier with Slafkovsky because a bunch of their own fans hated on him for months.

Sports fans are weird.

 

[Brodeur]

Reminds me of a few beer league teammates. Really wanted to yell at this one guy but he'd probably beat me handily in a fight. Guy would take head hunter slap shots from like 30 feet away during warmups. He never seemed to get that he rarely had an opportunity during an actual game to step into one uncontested. Or if he did, he'd just shoot it into the 3-4 players between him and the net. I think he was genuinely convinced we were all impressed with his shot.

This was before the Top Gun sequel because I would have nicknamed him Hangman since he always left his other D partner out to dry.

 

[Saugus]

this CANNOT be real.

Even the question posed as written is insultingly stupid. I will give Rangers fans credit that most of them probably don't think this, but any that do are utterly delusional.

 

[Blender]