Around the League - 2022-23 Season Edition

[TheTotalPackage]

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One of those names is not like the other.

 

[TheTotalPackage]

Man some heated debate here about Provorov. The sooner people learn to live with difference of opinions the better it will be.

8 billion people on the planet, everyone has their own comfort zone and as long as nobody is causing any physical/financial harm to anyone else people should just move on. Life is short, live and let live ffs.

This may be unpopular, but I wish the NHL did away with these types of things. Way too polarizing. They can keep Cancer awareness because it universally affects everyone. But beyond that, no need to bring unnecessary attention when it for sure is going to be met with some criticism and dislike.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

Again, nothing is being forced on him. Yes, he signed a contract to play hockey, but participating in team warmups and wearing team jerseys is part of that. And with that job and all that money and public fame that he's been handed comes a responsibility as role models and representatives of an organization and community. Provorov was asked to do the absolute bare minimum possible, in joining his teammates for one warmup in a slightly colourful jersey as a superficial show of support for a marginalized group and their right to live their life like everybody else, and have access to the sport that gave Provorov everything he has. He instead made a choice to essentially spit on a portion of his fanbase, and criticism of that is justified.

You can criticize all you want. What you can’t do is pretend something completely unrelated to what he is being paid to do is being forced upon him. That’s completely disingenuous. You are however free as a person to be as completely judgmental as you wish to be, regardless of whether you’ve spoken to the person or not. Just don’t forget that when you point your finger, there’s three pointing back.

 

[Dekes For Days]

You can criticize all you want. What you can’t do is pretend something completely unrelated to what he is being paid to do is being forced upon him. That’s completely disingenuous. You are however free as a person to be as completely judgmental as you wish to be, regardless of whether you’ve spoken to the person or not.

Nothing was forced on him. He was given a choice, he made the wrong one, and now he is facing the consequences and justified criticism for his choice.
In fact, even what he was asked to do was literally nothing. He was asked to come to team warmup and put on the team jersey like every other day - which, for the record, is related to what he is being paid to do - and he instead chose to abandon his teammates, reflect badly on his team, and spit on a portion of his fanbase because he couldn't stand the idea of being associated with a tiny, superficial show of support for another group of human beings, because of some irrelevant aspect of how they were born.
I don't need to speak to him. Actions speak louder than words, and his action was pretty loud.
Calling out bad positions/actions and holding people accountable for their choices and how they affect others isn't being "judgmental".

 

[ULF_55]

Nothing was forced on him. He was given a choice, he made the wrong one, and now he is facing the consequences and justified criticism for his choice.

We cannot decide whether he made the wrong choice or not.
Only he can decide that because it is his choice, his consequence.

From social media posts I've read, it is not being slammed by everyone.

Not the choice I would have made, but it isn't like I would go out of my way for either position.
I'd passively join in with my company's position, and not really care one way or the other.

 

[Gabriel426]

So around 12% of players who have 500+ scored their 500th. in Vancouver?

Now show us the stats where players get their 500,501 and 502 Vs the Nucks, lol.

 

[Gabriel426]

We cannot decide whether he made the wrong choice or not.
Only he can decide that because it is his choice, his consequence.

From social media posts I've read, it is not being slammed by everyone.

Not the choice I would have made, but it isn't like I would go out of my way for either position.
I'd passively join in with my company's position, and not really care one way or the other.

I think the media just like to jump on this bc it creates buzz.

Like you, I really don’t care one way or the other and if it is one of our Leafs who did this, my opinion will stay the same.

There is this one guy in Twitter who claimed he is gay and stated that he has no hard feeling for Prov bc that’s his beliefs and choice and everyone should respect that. However, he did stated that the Flyers could had handle it better and if someone if not comfortable with what they are doing, they should just scrap the idea instead of going ahead with it.
At least from what I read-twits and comments, I find that people who are on the case of Prov are those who is not part of the LGBTQ community but those who didn’t have a negative comment are either LGBTQ or have close ones who are.

 

[Dekes For Days]

We cannot decide whether he made the wrong choice or not.
Only he can decide that because it is his choice, his consequence.
From social media posts I've read, it is not being slammed by everyone.

I think it's pretty safe to say that bigoted actions are the wrong choice. Nothing in this world is "slammed by everyone" on social media, even stuff way worse than this. That doesn't mean anything.

 

[kb]

I think the media just like to jump on this bc it creates buzz.

Like you, I really don’t care one way or the other and if it is one of our Leafs who did this, my opinion will stay the same.

There is this one guy in Twitter who claimed he is gay and stated that he has no hard feeling for Prov bc that’s his beliefs and choice and everyone should respect that. However, he did stated that the Flyers could had handle it better and if someone if not comfortable with what they are doing, they should just scrap the idea instead of going ahead with it.
At least from what I read-twits and comments, I find that people who are on the case of Prov are those who is not part of the LGBTQ community but those who didn’t have a negative comment are either LGBTQ or have close ones who are.

This is true. I have avoided posting until now, but this is exactly it. My nephew has no issues with what Provorov did at all. He's far more pissed at the faux outrage and hypocritical virtue signalers who have no connection to LGBTQ talking on his behalf as to what he thinks or feels.

Maybe people should find out first how the actual people in the movement feel instead of presuming, and not by basing their opinions on the loud 1% of the movement who somehow get air time and presume to talk for the other 99%.

 

[77eagles77floyd77]

i do not mean to be sensationalistic in saying i am a part of that community, lgbtq plus. i support what provorov did

 

[Fogelhund]

This is true. I have avoided posting until now, but this is exactly it. My nephew has no issues with what Provorov did at all. He's far more pissed at the faux outrage and hypocritical virtue signalers who have no connection to LGBTQ talking on his behalf as to what he thinks or feels.

Maybe people should find out first how the actual people in the movement feel instead of presuming, and not by basing their opinions on the loud 1% of the movement who somehow get air time and presume to talk for the other 99%.

Putting aside this discussion for a moment... He's an employee of a business, and represents them. He wants to be traded. The NHL is a product, selling it's product. He's hurt his employer, by devaluing his trade value... as there will be teams who won't touch him now. It may affect future offers too... some teams just don't want that controversy now.

 

[Guinnes66]

I think it's pretty safe to say that bigoted actions are the wrong choice. Nothing in this world is "slammed by everyone" on social media, even stuff way worse than this. That doesn't mean anything.

Why do you keep saying that his actions were bigoted or that his actions means he does not accept their right to exist?

This is not a logical conclusion you can make based on the evidence and in fact the only words he said seems to suggest the opposite of what you are claiming.

Please explain how exactly it is intolerant or hatred of a group to decline participation in wearing pride colours? Saying that provorov should be criticized because of religious beliefs can also be labeled as a form of intolerance as it is certainly intolerant to other belief systems. What if the NHL were to have a Christian celebration night and forced players to wear crosses. If a Muslim player would decline that means he does not believe in Christians right to exist according to you? That is a ridiculous logical fallacy.

The very nature of a multi cultural society is that it consists of a group of very different populations some of which are in direct opposition to others. In order to coexist you cannot force everyone to accept all other beliefs. The only thing you can do is force people to follow the laws which includes bans against discrimination or hate speech and to not cause harm towards another group. That is it! That is the social contract we have as a society.

Multi culturalism is still very much an experiment and it remains to be seen whether it will be successful in the end. The only way for success though is not through force, it is through true tolerance which includes tolerance of diversity of cultures, beliefs, and thoughts as long as one does not infringe upon the rights of others.

Many cultures around the world do not accept LGBTQ. When these cultures come to Canada, rightly or wrongly we do not force them to accept our way of life, we allow them to maintain their way of life as long as they are able to follow our laws.

Your argument simply rests upon this idea that not supporting something means one is in opposition to something. This is false. I attend the gay parade every year, mostly because I find it interesting and fun. My best friend who is gay refuses to go. Why? Because he personally doesn't agree with overtly pushing a cause in peoples faces and trying to force them to accept something (I can give you plenty of examples of this that happen every year at the parade). And he does have a point since as soon as you try to push something upon someone there inherently will be some people that feel their freedom is being infringed upon and will become even more defensive and non willing to accept such a cause despite the fact that they initially couldn't care less about it. This is human nature and I can tell you that almost everyone will act the same way it just depends on what the cause is that pushes your buttons.

Im pretty open minded myself but I also don't like having agendas pushed on me even if I happen to agree with a cause. Actively supporting a cause should be left to those that are passionate or knowledgeable or wish to participate. Taking it the next step where you try to coerce support out of someone will likely end up with a net negative result for the cause. No idea why you want that. It's now 2023, most people in North America either support or simply don't care about gay rights. Sure there may still be a few that actively have hatred towards gays but trying to change those minority by force will end up alienating the large group of people in the middle that believe in gay rights but don't want it shoved in their face (especially if they are not even given a choice to decline) just as they don't want plenty of other good causes shoved in their face.

 

[Gabriel426]

Putting aside this discussion for a moment... He's an employee of a business, and represents them. He wants to be traded. The NHL is a product, selling it's product. He's hurt his employer, by devaluing his trade value... as there will be teams who won't touch him now. It may affect future offers too... some teams just don't want that controversy now.

That’s more to do with the business side instead of Prov’s character.

To me, Flyers could had handle it a lot better. Medias are just jumping on anything that creates buzz.
As mentioned in my previous post, comments I read from LGBTQ are usually fine with Prov’s action.

Actually, I even read a few comments saying Flyers is doing this for jersey sales instead of really pushing the idea of Hockey is inclusive.

It might hurt Prov’s trade value for now but he ain’t getting traded today and if he is traded on TDL, most medias will be covering other trades instead of commenting on the risk from fans reaction for the team trading for Prov bc of this incident.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Why do you keep saying that his actions were bigoted

Because they very literally were. He was asked to do the same thing he did every day - show up to team warmup and wear the team jersey - but because on that one day, the jerseys were slightly colourful to show a superficial showing of support for a marginalized community's right to exist and play the same game we all love, he abandoned his teammates, his team, hurt his trade value, and spat on a portion of his fanbase. If you think that doesn't deserve criticism, you will never find agreement here.

 

[ULF_55]

Putting aside this discussion for a moment... He's an employee of a business, and represents them. He wants to be traded. The NHL is a product, selling it's product. He's hurt his employer, by devaluing his trade value... as there will be teams who won't touch him now. It may affect future offers too... some teams just don't want that controversy now.

Perhaps.
But he's just a temp.
Most loyal fans cheer for the crest, not the player.

As far as the individual goes, he doesn't sound like the type to put money ahead of faith.

 

[Guinnes66]

Because they very literally were. He was asked to do the same thing he did every day - show up to team warmup and wear the team jersey - but because on that one day, the jerseys were slightly colourful to show a superficial showing of support for a marginalized community's right to exist and play the same game we all love, he abandoned his teammates, his team, hurt his trade value, and spat on a portion of his fanbase. If you think that doesn't deserve criticism, you will never find agreement here.

When you say his actions were literally being bigoted, what precisely did he do that warrants that accusation? Did he say LGBTQ people did not have the right to exist? Did he wish harm upon them in anyway? Did he say something disrespectful or disparaging towards them? Did he say that they should not participate in hockey? Only you are projecting these things. You cannot conclude any of the above are his feelings towards LGBTQ. We don't know what his true feelings are. It's quite possible he just doesn't feel this is a cause he should be involved in given his upbringing and beliefs.

You are also making a bunch of other false projections about him abandoning his teammates or spitting on his fanbase. It's certainly possible some may feel that way as you do and they have the right to feel that way but it does not mean you can conclude that was his intention in any way. If someone feels offended by someone it does not mean the person actually meant to be offensive or meant any harm.

This is pretty similar to vaccines really. I am pro vaccine but did not agree with forced mandates. So according to you if I don't support the cause of mandated vaccines then I am antivax? If I don't support BLM I am against a certain minority group from existing? These are not logical conclusions.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Did he say LGBTQ people did not have the right to exist? Did he wish harm upon them in anyway? Did he say something disrespectful or disparaging towards them? Did he say that they should not participate in hockey?

People can be bigoted through their actions, not just in what they say. In fact, actions speak louder than words. He took active steps to protest the tiniest show of support for a group of people's right to exist and participate in hockey, and he did so because of how that group of people was born. Based on your comments, I don't think we're going to agree here.

 

[Malachi Crunch]

When you say his actions were literally being bigoted, what precisely did he do that warrants that accusation? Did he say LGBTQ people did not have the right to exist? Did he wish harm upon them in anyway? Did he say something disrespectful or disparaging towards them? Did he say that they should not participate in hockey? Only you are projecting these things. You cannot conclude any of the above are his feelings towards LGBTQ. We don't know what his true feelings are. It's quite possible he just doesn't feel this is a cause he should be involved in given his upbringing and beliefs.

You are also making a bunch of other false projections about him abandoning his teammates or spitting on his fanbase. It's certainly possible some may feel that way as you do and they have the right to feel that way but it does not mean you can conclude that was his intention in any way. If someone feels offended by someone it does not mean the person actually meant to be offensive or meant any harm.

This is pretty similar to vaccines really. I am pro vaccine but did not agree with forced mandates. So according to you if I don't support the cause of mandated vaccines then I am antivax? If I don't support BLM I am against a certain minority group from existing? These are not logical conclusions.

Great posts above. You nailed it.

Also, let's look at the bigger picture. This is about compelling players to signal ther allegiance to a political cause. This is not the Soviet Union. This is illiberal bordering on a fascist mentality. Setting things up to shame people who don't agree on an issue is the subtule advocation of the exclusion and elimination of dissident voices. The simplest test of the reasonableness of your political views on issues is the degree to which you tolerate others views. Also, in a liberal democracy, it's actually our duty to protect and defend voices like Provorov's. Especially if we want multiculturalism to work and we're not pushing all cultures to adopt western ideals......."or else!"

 

[LeafsNation75]

For once the NHL is being consistent and fined Paul Maurice $25,000, which is what they previously fined Sheldon Keefe earlier this season.

 

[Gabriel426]

1. It would be such irony if Prov came out and said he is gay and all these medias and keyboard warriors will go into hiding
2. Not showing support doesn’t mean against. That’s a very bad mindset in our society. Sadly we see that everyday everywhere
3. Maybe Prov is someone who is totally against LGBTQ but you can’t link not wearing Pride jersey as conclusive evidence
4. Maybe Prov actually supports LGBTQ but didn’t like the idea of Flyers commercialized it.

For once the NHL is being consistent and fined Paul Maurice $25,000, which is what they previously fined Sheldon Keefe earlier this season.

Being a former Leafs coach might had something to do with it, lol.

 

[Guinnes66]

People can be bigoted through their actions, not just in what they say. In fact, actions speak louder than words. He took active steps to protest the tiniest show of support for a group of people's right to exist and participate in hockey, and he did so because of how that group of people was born. Based on your comments, I don't think we're going to agree here.

Wishing to not participate does not equate to active steps to protest in the least. Maybe this is where you are going off the rails. If provorov actively set up a protest group against the NHL's desire to have an LGBTQ support night then I would agree with the rest of your points but he did no such thing.

I know for a fact some gay folks refuse to wear pride colours. Does this make them bigoted against themselves then? One issue you seem to have is that you conflate LGBTQ with human rights when LGBTQ is more of a movement that consists of many different messages and ideas within. Not everyone agrees with every single aspect of the movement so people can sometimes not wish to participate despite the fact that they have full respect for any member of that community to do as they wish.

 

[LeafsNation75]

Being a former Leafs coach might had something to do with it, lol.

I like to think it's them being consistent because he said one of the refs has a personal beef with him.

Now if the Leafs had anything to do with it, what if the Panthers had played the Coyotes and the same calls happened, does the NHL even care? So how much more attention does this get since it happened in Toronto?

 

[Nineteen67]

This may be unpopular, but I wish the NHL did away with these types of things. Way too polarizing. They can keep Cancer awareness because it universally affects everyone. But beyond that, no need to bring unnecessary attention when it for sure is going to be met with some criticism and dislike.

Exactly. There are too many different groups and they open themselves up by including some and excluding others.

 

[ACC1224]

This may be unpopular, but I wish the NHL did away with these types of things. Way too polarizing. They can keep Cancer awareness because it universally affects everyone. But beyond that, no need to bring unnecessary attention when it for sure is going to be met with some criticism and dislike.

I just wish this thread could be about hockey again.

 

[Guinnes66]

I just wish this thread could be about hockey again.

Then we should turn our attention to the thing that we should actually be outraged about: when the hell is Boston going to start losing? this is getting absurd at this point. I keep thinking they will have a massive regression to the mean event but Im starting to doubt that as they don't even seem to be benefitting from luck really.