Around the League 2018-2019 Part 3

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A candidate to be signed and exposed in the expansion?

Possibly.

Also if they plan on trading Forbort/Martinez they'll need another left shooting damn as a place holder until some of Clague/Brickley/Bjornfot/Anderson hopefully arrive.

Forbort is a pending UFA.
 
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I expect the Kings will be pursuing Chase Priskie as well.

I'm really warming to the idea of adding Priskie or Hutton. Hutton is the same age as LaDue and Priskie is younger than Brickley, adding either would be a huge benefit to the overhaul of the blue line.
 
Is this the only way we evaluate centers in the league? If that's the case, I'm shocked you didn't bring up 2009 as a bad year.

I said I still think he is a Top 20 center in this league but I wholeheartedly agree that the consistent thing about him since 2014 is that he alternates bad/good seasons and it is no coincidence that the Kings missed the playoffs those years, although I won't pin 2019 squarely on him. The team goes as far as its best players take it: Kopitar's seasons in 2015 and '17 are the primary reason they missed the playoffs: not Trevor Lewis or Kyle Clifford.

He had 16 goals in 2015 and only took 134 shots. He was basically at 200 shots or more every season prior. His good seasons since 2014 feature him taking way more shots and then he goes back to being Perimetar. You see him just go for it in 2018 and then revert back to just circling around the boards in 2019 and you have to wonder why this has been happening since 2014.

Back to your main point, the amount of points scored is not the only way to judge a center but Kopitar is the Kings leading scorer and there isn't anyone else on his level on the roster. If he gets outscored by Jeff Carter, the Kings are in trouble. He is not paid $11MM or whatever to just be a Selke candidate so, for Kopitar, 2015, '17 and '19 are bad seasons with the latter being the only one where his shortcomings didn't determine making the playoffs since the entire thing was a tire fire. It does look really bad, however, when it comes on the heels of a Hart nomination.

All that said, he's a made man and I love the guy. Kings don't have two Cups without him and his number will rightfully hang from the rafters. Doesn't mean we have to ignore that he has alternated bad/good seasons since 2014. His bad season is a career year for most of the roster but when compared to what he is capable of, those years stink.
 
Absolutely correct, Malkin in the past had consecutive seasons of 37 points in 43 games, 109 points in 75 games, and 33 points in 31 games. He is just the epitome of inconsistency.
Ivonne-Wierink_146750768-1984x878.jpg

While you're up there, grab some secondary assists for me.
 
I said I still think he is a Top 20 center in this league but I wholeheartedly agree that the consistent thing about him since 2014 is that he alternates bad/good seasons and it is no coincidence that the Kings missed the playoffs those years, although I won't pin 2019 squarely on him. The team goes as far as its best players take it: Kopitar's seasons in 2015 and '17 are the primary reason they missed the playoffs: not Trevor Lewis or Kyle Clifford.

He had 16 goals in 2015 and only took 134 shots. He was basically at 200 shots or more every season prior. His good seasons since 2014 feature him taking way more shots and then he goes back to being Perimetar. You see him just go for it in 2018 and then revert back to just circling around the boards in 2019 and you have to wonder why this has been happening since 2014.

Back to your main point, the amount of points scored is not the only way to judge a center but Kopitar is the Kings leading scorer and there isn't anyone else on his level on the roster. If he gets outscored by Jeff Carter, the Kings are in trouble. He is not paid $11MM or whatever to just be a Selke candidate so, for Kopitar, 2015, '17 and '19 are bad seasons with the latter being the only one where his shortcomings didn't determine making the playoffs since the entire thing was a tire fire. It does look really bad, however, when it comes on the heels of a Hart nomination.

All that said, he's a made man and I love the guy. Kings don't have two Cups without him and his number will rightfully hang from the rafters. Doesn't mean we have to ignore that he has alternated bad/good seasons since 2014. His bad season is a career year for most of the roster but when compared to what he is capable of, those years stink.


That's all fine but Kopitar wasn't paid 10 million in all those years either.

Retroactively punishing him for his current contract going all the way back to 2014 when he was making 6.8 million is a new low wrinkle.

Also, from 2014 to 2015 he dropped from 70 points to 64. Then right back up to 74 in 2016. I think he could have done more especially down the stretch but all this acting like his 2015 was the start of some major dump off is crazy. a 10 point range across 3 years is inconsistent (even less than that if you go by PPG given he missed some games with the robotech arm issue that year, almost the most games he's missed in a season)? What is everyone smoking?

Alternating good and bad over the last three years is a legit criticism. Going all the way back to 2014, though, is an overstatement.
 
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While you're up there, grab some secondary assists for me.
Total non-sequitur, you were picking from the Malkin cherry tree to show inconsistency. There is ample evidence to show Kopitar has not been as consistent as a player with a $10M cap hit, $80M contract needs to be for the team who signed him to be successful.

Again, my original response was to the question, "Why isn't Kopitar considered to be a top 20 center in the NHL by pundits?" My answer is he is inconsistent. If he had come back from his Hart nominated season with another 75-point season, he would be on the top 10 list.
 
Total non-sequitur, you were picking from the Malkin cherry tree to show inconsistency. There is ample evidence to show Kopitar has not been as consistent as a player with a $10M cap hit, $80M contract needs to be for the team who signed him to be successful.

Again, my original response was to the question, "Why isn't Kopitar considered to be a top 20 center in the NHL by pundits?" My answer is he is inconsistent. If he had come back from his Hart nominated season with another 75-point season, he would be on the top 10 list.

I'll give and say yes, his last four seasons have alternated between great and good-ish..
Last season though was a really weird one with almost the entire team going htrough a regression..
Remove the first 20-ish games and Kopitar scored at a PPG rate.. If Iafallo had anything that resembled a scoring touch Kopi probably adds another 10-15 assists.. and there's your 70-75 point season.
 
The last 2 consecutive solid seasons for Kopitar, on paper, are probably 10-11 and 11-12.

My god. I really am taking crazy pills, I guess.

Edit: I'm guessing you forgot the lockout season was shorter. At least, I hope. 42 pts in 47 games is a
73 point pace, and he followed with 70 again the next year too.

Total non-sequitur, you were picking from the Malkin cherry tree to show inconsistency. There is ample evidence to show Kopitar has not been as consistent as a player with a $10M cap hit, $80M contract needs to be for the team who signed him to be successful.

Again, my original response was to the question, "Why isn't Kopitar considered to be a top 20 center in the NHL by pundits?" My answer is he is inconsistent. If he had come back from his Hart nominated season with another 75-point season, he would be on the top 10 list.

You're totally right that it's probably the most extreme example, but Kopitar has played close to full seasons every year and has averaged 70 points in that time. Sometimes a little higher, sometimes a little lower, but almost never the polar swings other players have season to season. Health counts too. Give me the guy who has played 97% of his possible NHL games and is a near lock for a Selke finalist and 70 points season in, season out over the guy who misses a third of every season on average and whose points can vary from 40-50 on a season to season basis. My criticism is "inconsistent" is a bad label when compared to other top players (minus the absolute cream of the crop like McDavid).

And re: salary again, you're retroactively punishing him for a contract signed far after the years he's getting shit on for, too.

Your response is 'wrong' because that list is done by literally organizing the points standings year after year. There's not even that much thought going into it. When he was scoring 75 points repeatedly, he still wasn't on that list. I know YOU don't see that as problematic, and we shouldn't really give a shit maybe what outsiders think--my beef is that people who have watched him nearly every night of his career are now going back to f***ing the early 2010s to talk about how not good he is. This summer can't end soon enough.

If people want to say he's not a top 20 nhl center right this moment based on last season alone and they think he can't bounceback that's whatever, I won't fight that. But to dig back 5-6+ years and pretend he shoudn't be in everyone's top handful of centers retroactively is utter crap.
 
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I'll give and say yes, his last four seasons have alternated between great and good-ish..
Last season though was a really weird one with almost the entire team going htrough a regression..
Remove the first 20-ish games and Kopitar scored at a PPG rate.. If Iafallo had anything that resembled a scoring touch Kopi probably adds another 10-15 assists.. and there's your 70-75 point season.

Maybe it really is just semantics because I'm okay calling them "Great vs. good" rather than "good vs bad." 92 is a lot more than good. 60 is a lot better than bad. Without examining anything else even.
 
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That's all fine but Kopitar wasn't paid 10 million in all those years either.

Retroactively punishing him for his current contract going all the way back to 2014 when he was making 6.8 million is a new low wrinkle.

Also, from 2014 to 2015 he dropped from 70 points to 64. Then right back up to 74 in 2016. I think he could have done more especially down the stretch but all this acting like his 2015 was the start of some major dump off is crazy. a 10 point range across 3 years is inconsistent (even less than that if you go by PPG given he missed some games with the robotech arm issue that year, almost the most games he's missed in a season)? What is everyone smoking?

Alternating good and bad over the last three years is a legit criticism. Going all the way back to 2014, though, is an overstatement.

I'm saying since 2014, so I mean starting with the 2015 season. The 2014 season was 70 points but it was also the run through the playoffs on top of it.

When your #1 stud center--who was just put into the Top 5 players in the league by some during the 2014 playoffs--drops off to 16 goals while putting up the fewest shots of his career, you've got yourself a bad season. It is still a fluke to me that they missed the playoffs in 2015, but scoring more than 16 goals would have gone a long way towards getting in. Hell, doing better than 1-for-9 in shoot out attempts would have gone a long way. I'm not the biggest analytics guy--not that I don't believe in them but rather I don't know what the hell they mean--but they don't appear to be too great for that season either.

Love the guy. Pretty much a model of consistency up until the 2015 season and an absolute stud in the 2012 and '14 playoffs. I'm in the fan club. I also have the highest of expectation on him and Doughty. If Adrian Kempe has a 2015 season--even a 2017 season--like Kopitar did those years, I'd be ecstatic. For Kopitar, however, those are poor seasons. Just calling a spade a spade.
 
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My god. I really am taking crazy pills, I guess.

Edit: I'm guessing you forgot the lockout season was shorter. At least, I hope. 42 pts in 47 games is a
73 point pace, and he followed with 70 again the next year too.

It's the goals, and he had 10 in those 47 games in 2013, a projected total of 17 in 82 games. On pace can be deceptive, and 2013 was obviously a weird year, and a lot of players had weird totals. Bergeron also only had 10 goals. The playoffs that year were odd as well. Not just Kopitar, but Brown and Doughty also sort of take a back seat, where it was a struggle to generate anything.

It's weird with #11. Every time the team has tried to bring in some help, the following season, he seems to not do well. When it was clear the team had no offense in 11-12, even after getting Richards, he still put up the goals. Coming back in 2013, thankfully they had Carter with the Cy Young numbers that year. A projected 17 goals in 82 games would've been a career low at the time. Had Carter not scored all the goals, Kopitar probably would've been forced to. They get Gaborik in 2014, and he produces so much, that they can beat both the Hawks and Rangers with 0 goals from the #1C. Then with Gaborik for a full season, Kopitar ends up with an at the time career low in goals, and almost a career low in points. That got flipped in 15-16 with Lucic though, but AK also was playing for a contract that year. Then the wrist injury. Then a career year all around with almost no help on the roster. Then they get Kovalchuk, and he doesn't fit with anyone, not just Kopitar.

Is Kopitar in the top 20 C's? What's the difference between 17 and 21? 12 and 16? You have your elite guys, and then Kopitar is in the mix of the 2nd tier somewhere. Maybe higher, maybe lower, depends on the year.
 
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It's the goals, and he had 10 in those 47 games in 2013, a projected total of 17 in 82 games. On pace can be deceptive, and 2013 was obviously a weird year, and a lot of players had weird totals. Bergeron also only had 10 goals. The playoffs that year were odd as well. Not just Kopitar, but Brown and Doughty also sort of take a back seat, where it was a struggle to generate anything.

It's weird with #11. Every time the team has tried to bring in some help, the following season, he seems to not do well. When it was clear the team had no offense in 11-12, even after getting Richards, he still put up the goals. Coming back in 2013, thankfully they had Carter with the Cy Young numbers that year. A projected 17 goals in 82 games would've been a career low at the time. Had Carter not scored all the goals, Kopitar probably would've been forced to. They get Gaborik in 2014, and he produces so much, that they can beat both the Hawks and Rangers with 0 goals from the #1C. Then with Gaborik for a full season, Kopitar ends up with an at the time career low in goals, and almost a career low in points. That got flipped in 15-16 with Lucic though, but AK also was playing for a contract that year. Then the wrist injury. Then a career year all around with almost no help on the roster. Then they get Kovalchuk, and he doesn't fit with anyone, not just Kopitar.

Is Kopitar in the top 20 C's? What's the difference between 17 and 21? 12 and 16? You have your elite guys, and then Kopitar is in the mix of the 2nd tier somewhere. Maybe higher, maybe lower, depends on the year.

And Brown had 18 goals and 11 assists, partially because Kopitar was feeding the everliving shit out of him and Williams. Those two combined had 29 goals, and Kopitar's 32 assists were 10 more than anyone else...seriously, Kopitar scores 42 points, and the next several guys have 33, 33, 32, 29, 25. He outscores the team by 10 or more with great regularity and it shouldn't matter if he's the one finishing the play.

Wanting him to be greedy and shoot more because he's a phenomenal player is a take on it I can stomach. Criticizing him for not scoring more is one I can't, because it suggests he's not the guy actually driving the play up the entire ice and setting up the eventual goal scorer. Are we really pretending Gaborik was scoring in spite of Kopitar and not because of him? Gaborik got loose by driving the net hard while Kopitar was wearing Hossa, Toews, and Keith sweaters in one series and McDonagh/Stepan/B. Richards jerseys in another. They saw him scoring at the Malkin Conn Smythe pace through two series and decided to let someone else beat them, hence the 70s line was born since the Hawks though shutting down kopitar would allow Kane/Saad/Sharp and co to run over everyone else.

I even am ok with @BigKing s criticism that we needed more goals from him down the stretch in 2015 because no one was scoring. But if literally everyone else is scoring and it's in large part because of his playmaking, I don't give a crap if he has 0 goals and 90 assists, we know where the offense is coming from, and I find a lot of this conversation about point splits between goals, primary assists, secondary assists intentionally disingenuous.
 
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If the Kings sign Forbort im going to jump.

Also if the jump doesn't kill me, I'd then tie my arms behind my back climb in a ring against 3 tigers and a coked out Mike Tyson.

plot twist--they attack forbort because he's slower.
 
And Brown had 18 goals and 11 assists, partially because Kopitar was feeding the everliving **** out of him and Williams. Those two combined had 29 goals, and Kopitar's 32 assists were 10 more than anyone else...seriously, Kopitar scores 42 points, and the next several guys have 33, 33, 32, 29, 25. He outscores the team by 10 or more with great regularity and it shouldn't matter if he's the one finishing the play.

Wanting him to be greedy and shoot more because he's a phenomenal player is a take on it I can stomach. Criticizing him for not scoring more is one I can't, because it suggests he's not the guy actually driving the play up the entire ice and setting up the eventual goal scorer. Are we really pretending Gaborik was scoring in spite of Kopitar and not because of him? Gaborik got loose by driving the net hard while Kopitar was wearing Hossa, Toews, and Keith sweaters in one series and McDonagh/Stepan/B. Richards jerseys in another. They saw him scoring at the Malkin Conn Smythe pace through two series and decided to let someone else beat them, hence the 70s line was born since the Hawks though shutting down kopitar would allow Kane/Saad/Sharp and co to run over everyone else.

I even am ok with @BigKing s criticism that we needed more goals from him down the stretch in 2015 because no one was scoring. But if literally everyone else is scoring and it's in large part because of his playmaking, I don't give a crap if he has 0 goals and 90 assists, we know where the offense is coming from, and I find a lot of this conversation about point splits between goals, primary assists, secondary assists intentionally disingenuous.

They do matter. Are points on a bad team vs points on a good team the same thing? I know Lombardi always said there's a difference with that. How you're generating points matters too.

Elite guys do everything. Kopitar has even done a little of everything some years. Other years, not all the time. The Kings have also played a certain way over the years, which was more about control than flash. As the roster has slowly deteriorated, Kopitar has also had to do more by himself, because he hasn't had Stoll, or the good Richards behind him. He's got a winger playing C, or Nick Shore, or crappy Richards, or crappy Carter, or whoever else they've been throwing out there. Plus no elite level wingers, ever.
 
When Kempe inks his deal, the Kings will be at 49 contracts if I’m not mistaken. Got to think they would want to dump a contract or two regardless if they would consider revisiting Hutton or going after Priske.

I don’t think they would want to go into the season at the maximum amount of contracts. Doesn’t seem ideal.
 
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They do matter. Are points on a bad team vs points on a good team the same thing? I know Lombardi always said there's a difference with that. How you're generating points matters too.

Elite guys do everything. Kopitar has even done a little of everything some years. Other years, not all the time. The Kings have also played a certain way over the years, which was more about control than flash. As the roster has slowly deteriorated, Kopitar has also had to do more by himself, because he hasn't had Stoll, or the good Richards behind him. He's got a winger playing C, or Nick Shore, or crappy Richards, or crappy Carter, or whoever else they've been throwing out there. Plus no elite level wingers, ever.

I just totally disagree, then. If Kopitar's linemates are the ones scoring goals, we all know who is (generally, 99% of the time) doing the work to set them up. That's why I find it disingenuous. It's not like we're talking about some random 3C with one good year here.

Does it also matter in reverse, then? So Kopitar had a 'bad' year last year, right? Why aren't you guys praising him for 85% of his even strength points being primary points? He had to do everything, right? Or do we only complain when he scores 75 points because 32% of his points, 24, were secondary assists?

It's cherry picked outrage fitted to the season so people can downplay him.
 
They do matter. Are points on a bad team vs points on a good team the same thing? I know Lombardi always said there's a difference with that. How you're generating points matters too.

Elite guys do everything. Kopitar has even done a little of everything some years. Other years, not all the time. The Kings have also played a certain way over the years, which was more about control than flash. As the roster has slowly deteriorated, Kopitar has also had to do more by himself, because he hasn't had Stoll, or the good Richards behind him. He's got a winger playing C, or Nick Shore, or crappy Richards, or crappy Carter, or whoever else they've been throwing out there. Plus no elite level wingers, ever.

No offense, but youre the type of fan that takes elite players for granted.. Kopitar is the type of players tat has his hand in everything offensive and defensive. It just so happensthat when hes not on the scoresheet we make the ass-sumption that its a bad game/stretch/season. Some of you need to do more than just stat watch and look at the little things he does! As i've mentioned previously, if Alex Iafallo had anything that resembled a scoring touch Kopitar would have easily had 70-75 points.. Here's another thing, why do think Brown went back to being a productive player??

I'm really tired of people using the $10 million salary excuse for the fact that this teams FO failed them, they made poor decisions, didnt retain key leadership players and have absolutely run into the ground its two most important players with insane minutes... Kopitar has seen more TOI his last 2 seasons than any other previously, while guys like Bergeron, Stamkos and others have all seen declines..
 
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Kopitar is paid to be a 30g, 80pt guy every year. There are too many seasons where he is a 25g, 70pt guy since he signed his second contract.
 
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Kopitar is paid to be a 30g, 80pt guy every year. There are too many seasons where he is a 25g, 70pt guy since he signed his second contract.

He's only been that guy for two seasons in his entire career.

Wait till you see the other guys that are making as much or more...

People haven't adjusted their expectations to the new market reality yet imo.
 
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