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Around the League 2018-2019 Part 2- Everyone is having fun except us

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No one is calling Brent Burns a Rod Langway clone.

But the object of the game is to put pucks into the other teams net and keep pucks out of your net. Over a full season Brent Burns may be responsible for 10-15 more goals ending up in his teams net than Drew Doughty, but if he's contributing 20-25 goals more than Drew than he is helping his team win more, and that has been the case this season.

It's why I never understood the lame argument "Well he's a defenseman, I don't care how many points he scores, his job is to defend" . No his job is to help his team end up with more goals than the other team. You can certainly do that by being a defensive stud and keeping pucks out, but in this era of hockey where it's an offensive arms race it is ridiculous to overlook the offensive contributions of Burns.

Burns has helped his team win this season than Drew, period.

Edit: And yes Drew would benefit more from playing with better players, being on the team with the worst skill in the league doesn't help his numbers but the bigger problem is a terrible PP which Drew has a big hand in.
 
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Herby said:
No one is calling Brent Burns a Rod Langway clone.

But the object of the game is to put pucks into the other teams net and keep pucks out of your net. Over a full season Brent Burns may be responsible for 10-15 more goals ending up in his teams net than Drew Doughty, but if he's contributing 20-25 goals more than Drew than he is helping his team win more, and that has been the case this season.

It's why I never understood the lame argument "Well he's a defenseman, I don't care how many points he scores, his job is to defend" . No his job is to help his team end up with more goals than the other team. You can certainly do that by being a defensive stud and keeping pucks out, but in this era of hockey where it's an offensive arms race it is ridiculous to overlook the offensive contributions of Burns.

Burns has helped his team win this season than Drew, period.

Edit: And yes Drew would benefit more from playing with better players, being on the team with the worst skill in the league doesn't help his numbers but the bigger problem is a terrible PP which Drew has a big hand in.
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Defensemen should do both or you might as well dress a forward. Just like they do with Burns. :) But Giordano does both. He kills penalties and scores on the PP.
 
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Oliver Wahlstrom bailing from Boston College after a season, albeit his next destination is unknown. Apparently he doesn't like the team who has his rights in the QMJHL, but perhaps they could be convinced to trade him. Islanders could sign him and put him in the AHL, but that might not be the best step for his development.

I spent an inordinate amount of time defending Brady Tkachuk for his "bad" NCAA numbers last year. I didn't have anything against Wahlstrom, but I'm fighting the urge of bumping a thread where several folks confidently picked Wahlstrom over Tkachuk because of cherry picked stats. My favorite possibly being somebody showing Wahlstrom's numbers against NCAA competition without realizing those games were exhibitions against the USNTDP. In most of those games, the NCAA team split their goalies or outright started their backup. In a couple cases, there seemed to be a Rudy situation where the #3 goalie got to play (and proceeded to get lit up).
 
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Brodeur said:
Oliver Wahlstrom bailing from Boston College after a season, albeit his next destination is unknown. Apparently he doesn't like the team who has his rights in the QMJHL, but perhaps they could be convinced to trade him. Islanders could sign him and put him in the AHL, but that might not be the best step

I spent an inordinate amount of time defending Brady Tkachuk for his "bad" NCAA numbers last year. I didn't have anything against Wahlstrom, but I'm fighting the urge of bumping a thread where several folks confidently picked Wahlstrom over Tkachuk because of cherry picked stats. My favorite possibly being somebody showing Wahlstrom's numbers against NCAA competition without realizing those games were exhibitions against the USNTDP. In most of those games, the NCAA team split their goalies or outright started their backup. In a couple cases, there seemed to be a Rudy situation where the #3 goalie got to play (and proceeded to get lit up).
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This kids recruitment was a circus, he committed to Maine, then told a bunch of other schools he might he coming, then ended up at BC but there were rumors he was going to leave BC midseason.

The Islanders will probably just sign him and put him in the AHL. He is 19 with a year of NCAA experience, if he is worth a damn as a prospect he should do ok in the AHL.

But he was pretty terrible this season and was unimpressive at the WJC's. And yes you are correct, the NCAA teams don't value games vs. the NTDP, never have and never will.
 
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Herby said:
No one is calling Brent Burns a Rod Langway clone.

But the object of the game is to put pucks into the other teams net and keep pucks out of your net. Over a full season Brent Burns may be responsible for 10-15 more goals ending up in his teams net than Drew Doughty, but if he's contributing 20-25 goals more than Drew than he is helping his team win more, and that has been the case this season.

It's why I never understood the lame argument "Well he's a defenseman, I don't care how many points he scores, his job is to defend" . No his job is to help his team end up with more goals than the other team. You can certainly do that by being a defensive stud and keeping pucks out, but in this era of hockey where it's an offensive arms race it is ridiculous to overlook the offensive contributions of Burns.

Burns has helped his team win this season than Drew, period.

Edit: And yes Drew would benefit more from playing with better players, being on the team with the worst skill in the league doesn't help his numbers but the bigger problem is a terrible PP which Drew has a big hand in.
Click to expand...
This season he has been what you might call a "high event" player. Lots of goals both ways. Frankly, the sport would be more entertaining to watch with more high event players.

The goals against might be a product of the Sharks having awful goaltending. Tied for last for team save percentage. If they even had decent goaltending this year, they'd be ahead of the Flames for first in the West.
 
Herby said:
No one is calling Brent Burns a Rod Langway clone.

But the object of the game is to put pucks into the other teams net and keep pucks out of your net. Over a full season Brent Burns may be responsible for 10-15 more goals ending up in his teams net than Drew Doughty, but if he's contributing 20-25 goals more than Drew than he is helping his team win more, and that has been the case this season.

It's why I never understood the lame argument "Well he's a defenseman, I don't care how many points he scores, his job is to defend" . No his job is to help his team end up with more goals than the other team. You can certainly do that by being a defensive stud and keeping pucks out, but in this era of hockey where it's an offensive arms race it is ridiculous to overlook the offensive contributions of Burns.

Burns has helped his team win this season than Drew, period.

Edit: And yes Drew would benefit more from playing with better players, being on the team with the worst skill in the league doesn't help his numbers but the bigger problem is a terrible PP which Drew has a big hand in.
Click to expand...

I don't find that a fair argument at all, especially because you are just using hypothetical numbers that suit your argument. A defenseman's primary goal should be keeping pucks out of the net, there are 3 forwards on the ice whose main focus is getting the puck in the opponent's net. We constantly see the drag that offensive dmen have on goals against, it is a high risk style of play that puts additional pressure on the team around him. Burns has an ES GF of +9 which is decent, but not exactly stellar. He is simply a high action player currently sitting 12th in ES GA and 7th in ES GF, so the value is narrow.

As for you comparing him to Doughty, Dewey has been shit this year and is not a good comparison for breaking down the value between strictly O blue liners and 2 way guys. It would be just as unfair of me to bring up last season where Burns had a -9 ES GF and a -5.84 GF% Rel to show how useless Burns is.

If you read the full comment, the reason he mentioned Burns in the first place was to bring up how well he thought Giordano was playing. Doughty wasn't trying to say that he desevred the Norris over Burns, but that Gio did and if you actually look into the stats you would have to agree.

Gio is a +24 ES GF, has an ES GA/60 of 2.37, a 5.34 CF% Rel, .97 PPG and is second on his team in PK TOI/GP at 2.44.
Burns is a +9 ES GF, has an ES GA/60 of 3.10, a 3.55 CF% Rel, 1.01 PPG and is third on his team in PK TOI/GP at 1:57.

Outside of scoring a couple points less, Gio has put up a much better all around season from the defensive position.
 
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crassbonanza said:
I don't find that a fair argument at all, especially because you are just using hypothetical numbers that suit your argument. A defenseman's primary goal should be keeping pucks out of the net, there are 3 forwards on the ice whose main focus is getting the puck in the opponent's net. We constantly see the drag that offensive dmen have on goals against, it is a high risk style of play that puts additional pressure on the team around him. Burns has an ES GF of +9 which is decent, but not exactly stellar. He is simply a high action player currently sitting 12th in ES GA and 7th in ES GF, so the value is narrow.

As for you comparing him to Doughty, Dewey has been **** this year and is not a good comparison for breaking down the value between strictly O blue liners and 2 way guys. It would be just as unfair of me to bring up last season where Burns had a -9 ES GF and a -5.84 GF% Rel to show how useless Burns is.

If you read the full comment, the reason he mentioned Burns in the first place was to bring up how well he thought Giordano was playing. Doughty wasn't trying to say that he desevred the Norris over Burns, but that Gio did and if you actually look into the stats you would have to agree.

Gio is a +24 ES GF, has an ES GA/60 of 2.37, a 5.34 CF% Rel, .97 PPG and is second on his team in PK TOI/GP at 2.44.
Burns is a +9 ES GF, has an ES GA/60 of 3.10, a 3.55 CF% Rel, 1.01 PPG and is third on his team in PK TOI/GP at 1:57.

Outside of scoring a couple points less, Gio has put up a much better all around season from the defensive position.
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Absolutely. It's about net gain. Burns' Norris year slowed down at the end but he was at something absurd like 75% GF at 5v5 most of the year. That would outweigh anything anyone does, even if he's leaking GA. In contrast, the year everyone was chest thumping Erik Karlsson, he was still -2, was on the ice for the most goals against in the entire league, and his team was nearly a goal and a half better against with him off the ice. It's about putting it all together when it comes to the Norris, but Drew is absolutely right that people are blinded by points (it's obviously not only +/- either, just being simplistic for sake of quick discussion).

His theory here is more about high event vs. low event dmen and the theory that they don't get enough recognition and he's absolutely right. Luckily Gio probably won't get robbed because they're relatively close in actual points too. You don't want Burns out there to defend in the last couple of minutes, that's for sure, but he's more likely to score for you in the last couple of minutes as well. I have a hard time seeing why that's so controversial, saying different d-men are different.
 
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Raccoon Jesus said:
Absolutely. It's about net gain. Burns' Norris year slowed down at the end but he was at something absurd like 75% GF at 5v5 most of the year. That would outweigh anything anyone does, even if he's leaking GA. In contrast, the year everyone was chest thumping Erik Karlsson, he was still -2, was on the ice for the most goals against in the entire league, and his team was nearly a goal and a half better against with him off the ice. It's about putting it all together when it comes to the Norris, but Drew is absolutely right that people are blinded by points (it's obviously not only +/- either, just being simplistic for sake of quick discussion).

His theory here is more about high event vs. low event dmen and the theory that they don't get enough recognition and he's absolutely right. Luckily Gio probably won't get robbed because they're relatively close in actual points too. You don't want Burns out there to defend in the last couple of minutes, that's for sure, but he's more likely to score for you in the last couple of minutes as well. I have a hard time seeing why that's so controversial, saying different d-men are different.
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And Doughty even says Burns and Karlsson are the best at what they do on the offensive side. It's not like he completely dumpsters them.
 
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Is anybody keeping tabs on Vilardi? What I mean is, do we know if he's skating or lifting weights or getting back surgery or watching TV or delivering snacks (ala Scott Barney a while ago).......? Well, what's he doing?


And please do not respond with "the Kings have shut down Vilardi for the remainder of the season"..... that phrase means almost zero.
 
Basilisk said:
Is anybody keeping tabs on Vilardi? What I mean is, do we know if he's skating or lifting weights or getting back surgery or watching TV or delivering snacks (ala Scott Barney a while ago).......? Well, what's he doing?


And please do not respond with "the Kings have shut down Vilardi for the remainder of the season"..... that phrase means almost zero.
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They put a blue tarp over him and placed him in the shed until next fall.
 
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Basilisk said:
Is anybody keeping tabs on Vilardi? What I mean is, do we know if he's skating or lifting weights or getting back surgery or watching TV or delivering snacks (ala Scott Barney a while ago).......? Well, what's he doing?


And please do not respond with "the Kings have shut down Vilardi for the remainder of the season"..... that phrase means almost zero.
Click to expand...

He’s working at a Tim Hortons in Kingston.
 
Columbus was on the brink.

Up 1-0 in 2nd INT, Montreal up big and Carolina tied 1-1 in 2nd INT.

Columbus gets two in the 3rd and going to win and Carolina now down 3-1. Had it gone the other way they were in big trouble. Now it's kind of a 3 horse race again.
 
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Tampa Bay has 122 points?? They might end up with double the amount the Kings have at the end of the season.
 
If you would have told me before the season that our on-paper second line of Kovalchuk - Carter - Toffoli would score less goals combined than Jake Guentzal and less goals each individually than Brad Richardson (in only 61 games no less), I would have laughed at you.

Does anyone think they just scratch Kovalchuk for the rest of the season to prevent an injury and to be able to trade him?
 
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