Around the League 20-21 Thread: Playoffs Edition

[Steve Zissou]

Kopitar on the half wall isn't the worst thing in the world, a lot of teams have their best player set up there to start, the Kings problem is there is never any movement, him and Doughty are just glued to their spots and have almost always been that way. I think with Doughty it's just a weakness that he has had most of his career, Doughty does many great things but his offensive game sense, especially knowing when to jump in is not and has really never been a strength. The fact that he has been glued to the blueline despite having multiple different PP coaches says its likely on him and not anyone else.

The addition of a right shot sniper to play at the left circle, which many teams use would also help out the Kings. Maybe Jarret Stoll can come out of retirement and re-assume that role.

Kaliyev is actually super dangerous on that same half wall that Kopitar likes to lurk during the PP.

He has such a good shot that when the penalty killers play the shot it opens up a lane for others. His fake slapper pass will continue to be deadly when he makes it into the NHL on a full-time basis.

 

[Bandit]

Racoon Jesus, you tell me I have an irrational hatred of Alex Turcotte? No my friend, this is an irrational hatred of a player.

Tampa won last year and is in the final this year with a smaller skilled team. I guess 10 months ago is to long to remember back.

Nah, I actually don’t care about Caufield at all. What I find absurd is your ongoing strokefest over a player who’s played 20 games.

And yeah Tampa won in a pandemic bubble last year and is in the semi final this year. Only a shit ton of millions over the cap too. I guess you can keep talking about outliers like they’re normal if you want. I’ve never tried it myself but I hear that Tennessee moonshine can be some serious shit.

 

[Herby]

Nah, I actually don’t care about Caufield at all. What I find absurd is your ongoing strokefest over a player who’s played 20 games.

And yeah Tampa won in a pandemic bubble last year and is in the semi final this year. Only a shit ton of millions over the cap too. I guess you can keep talking about outliers like they’re normal if you want. I’ve never tried it myself but I hear that Tennessee moonshine can be some serious shit.

Ofcourse discrediting Tampa with a lame excuse rather than admitting that it is possible for a smaller skilled team to win. You must have missed the Penguins back to back cups as well? The Pens had a massive roster with behemoth tough guys like Sidney Crosby, Bryan Rust, Kris Letang, Phil Kessell, Carl Hagelin, Trevor Daley, Jake Guentzel, Connor Sheary and Patric Hornqvist.

Tampa has the best record in the NHL over the past 7 seasons, has won a Cup, lost in the final another year and is in the semi-final this year. Yeah their roster made up largely of smaller skilled forwards clearly has no idea how to win.

 

[Reclamation Project]

 

[KINGS17]

Kings management reminds me of the scene in the Apollo 13 movie where they had to retrofit a filter for CO2 that was for 2 guys and had to be changed for three guys.

“ok guys, draft and free agency is over, we got to make this fit into that.”

Well done, steely-eyed missile man.

 

[kovacro]

If Carolina lets him go, I definitely see Francis reuniting with Brind’Amour. If not, Tocchet might be the leading candidate there.

I bet Brind'Amour stays in Carolina.

Looks as if one of Brind'Amour's assitant coaches is leaving. Canes' have given Dean Chynoweth permission to speak with other clubs.

Tocchet is a good call for Seattle. haven't heard much about other candidates they may have interviewed. Maybe guys like Boudreau, Julien or Torts get a look?

 

[SFKingshomer]

Ofcourse discrediting Tampa with a lame excuse rather than admitting that it is possible for a smaller skilled team to win. You must have missed the Penguins back to back cups as well? The Pens had a massive roster with behemoth tough guys like Sidney Crosby, Bryan Rust, Kris Letang, Phil Kessell, Carl Hagelin, Trevor Daley, Jake Guentzel, Connor Sheary and Patric Hornqvist.

Tampa has the best record in the NHL over the past 7 seasons, has won a Cup, lost in the final another year and is in the semi-final this year. Yeah their roster made up largely of smaller skilled forwards clearly has no idea how to win.

That is all true but it took them acquiring Maroon, Bogosian, Cernak, Coleman, and Goodrow to get them over the hump. They had the skill but needed the physical role guys to takeover a shift after a goal against or bad shift. Similar to the Islanders 4th line. You can win with skilled guys but it takes the right mix.

 

[DoktorJeep]

It was no surprise to see Vegas dunk goals on Price all night long in game 1. If your best forward is Tyler Toffoli, you’re good enough to be the best playoff team in Canada this season and that’s pretty much it.

I called Vegas sweeping the Habs before the series, but Montreal managed to keep up for one period last night, so I’m thinking they could win at least one home game. In the other series, I think the lighting find a way to solve the Islanders defense and tie that one up tonight.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Kaliyev is actually super dangerous on that same half wall that Kopitar likes to lurk during the PP.

He has such a good shot that when the penalty killers play the shot it opens up a lane for others. His fake slapper pass will continue to be deadly when he makes it into the NHL on a full-time basis.

Gonna be so weird having an Ovy-style dual threat lurking low.

I want to say "we can all bond on dunking over Perry" but f*** VGK and f*** Whitecloud because he made the choice so sign with them instead of us

Love that kid's game though

It was no surprise to see Vegas dunk goals on Price all night long in game 1. If your best forward is Tyler Toffoli, you’re good enough to be the best playoff team in Canada this season and that’s pretty much it.

I called Vegas sweeping the Habs before the series, but Montreal managed to keep up for one period last night, so I’m thinking they could win at least one home game. In the other series, I think the lighting find a way to solve the Islanders defense and tie that one up tonight.

Reminded me a little of the Kings series with them, we had full periods at times where we just went HAM and could not score because Fleury kept them afloat long enough to drink their coffee and punch us in the face.

Vegas is the weirdest great team I've seen in that sense, they'll go 15 minutes sometimes looking like absolute dog shit and being their own worst enemies then all of a sudden all the pieces lock into place and look like the inevitable champs. ANd it's not exclusive to the bottom lines (Nic Roy always sucks though, if there's one player who looks like he doesn't fit on that team at all it's him, he looks like the friend being carried in beer league that does all the shit talking with no right), even last night Stone and Marchessault were passing to the wrong team for an extended period of time

 

[Bandit]

Ofcourse discrediting Tampa with a lame excuse rather than admitting that it is possible for a smaller skilled team to win. You must have missed the Penguins back to back cups as well? The Pens had a massive roster with behemoth tough guys like Sidney Crosby, Bryan Rust, Kris Letang, Phil Kessell, Carl Hagelin, Trevor Daley, Jake Guentzel, Connor Sheary and Patric Hornqvist.

Tampa has the best record in the NHL over the past 7 seasons, has won a Cup, lost in the final another year and is in the semi-final this year. Yeah their roster made up largely of smaller skilled forwards clearly has no idea how to win.

It's hilarious to see you get so worked up over opinions about other teams. Tampa is the second heaviest team in the league this year. Similarly last year. I mention heavy since height is useless as every NHL team averages 6'1" or 6'2". Why? Because most NHL players are big.

Hedman 6'6"
Foote 6'4"
Rutta 6'3"
Sergachev 6'3"
Cernak 6'3"
Savard 6'2"
McDonagh 6'1"

Good luck against that Defense mighty mouse. But yeah, Tampa Bay is "small". Not to mention 5'10" and 5'7" are not the same, but I'm sure that's just a minor inconvenient detail.

 

[Herby]

It's hilarious to see you get so worked up over opinions about other teams. Tampa is the second heaviest team in the league this year. Similarly last year. I mention heavy since height is useless as every NHL team averages 6'1" or 6'2". Why? Because most NHL players are big.

Hedman 6'6"
Foote 6'4"
Rutta 6'3"
Sergachev 6'3"
Cernak 6'3"
Savard 6'2"
McDonagh 6'1"

Good luck against that Defense mighty mouse. But yeah, Tampa Bay is "small". Not to mention 5'10" and 5'7" are not the same, but I'm sure that's just a minor inconvenient detail.

I never said I want a small defense. Defense is one area where yes, you want more size, you can't win with a bunch of sub 6' d-man, I never said otherwise. As much as I loved Erik Karlsson and Quinn Hughes and believe they are difference making players, I always said you need to have the right partner for them. I never said I wanted a team of 5'7 players. But having a 5'7 player with an elite skill set doesn't prevent teams from winning, especially with how important being able to score on the PP is to the success of a team with how many penalties are called in the modern NHL. You just choose to reject having a player like that straight up, no matter how good they may be, you will take a less talented 6 footer, to each his own I guess.

Tampa and Pittsburgh played nothing like the Kings did, which you think is the only way to win. Vegas is built on the strength of wingers, which flies in the face of the Kings organizational philosophy of strength down the middle. You think Dean Lombardi builds a team with William Karlsson and Chandler Stephenson as the 1-2's down the middle? The whole point is there are plenty of ways to win in the league and the teams who have won the last decade back that up. You bought into the notion that Tampa was "to soft" and then they won, and instead of just giving them credit we are now at the point of resorting to "They won in the bubble" excuse. Why can't you just give them credit for what they accomplished and say "you know what, I was wrong, I didn't think they could win that way and they did". I didn't think the Kings could win playing a defensive style in the post lockout era, when they did I just admitted I was wrong, why is that so tough to do? Everyone has been wrong on this board, some of us (myself included) spectacularly wrong. Why do we have to hear the excuses like "Won in the bubble" or "Going to fizzle out" when things we say are proven wrong.

 

[SFKingshomer]

The Girard to LA thread makes me realize how small LA's D is. God I hate the Cernak trade almost as much as the Lucic deal.

 

[deeshamrock]

Sounds like Reinhart might be on the move...

 

[Steve Zissou]

 

[Herby]

Sounds like Reinhart might be on the move...

I like what Buffalo is doing now. The scorched Earth tear it down strategy.

They will get two top 10 picks this year, one of which being a perfect compliment to Dahlin. Say they trade with the Kings for Reinart and get Johnson with the pick. They likely get a few good young pieces from whoever trades for Eichel, say hypothetically they were to get Kaako as the big piece from NYR.

Suddenly they have

Dahlin (21)
Power (18)
K. Johnson (18)
Kaako (20)
Cozens (20)
R. Johnson (20)

They send Power and Johnson back to school for a year and field what will almost surely be the worst team in the NHL. They are in position to draft Wright, Lambert or Savoie in 2022 all of whom look like they could have star potential.

They are terrible again in 2022-2023 and are suddenly in a position to hit the jackpot with Bedard or Michkov who both look like they have generational potential. You know a draft is loaded when someone like Adam Fantilli is projected to go #3.

After the 2023 draft (only 2 short years from now) they have

Bedard/Michkov/Fantilli (18). (#1, #2, or #3 OA picks)
Wright/Lamber/Savoie (19) (#1, #2, #3 OA picks)
Kaako (22) (#2OA pick)
Dahlin (23) (#1 OA pick)
Power (20) (#1 OA pick)
K. Johnson (20) (Top 10 pick)
Cozens (22) (Top 10 pick)
R. Johnson (1st round pick)

This is why scorched Earth is better to do than what Blake has done. Buffalo has a stronger more loyal fanbase than LA though, that city has suffered with it's two teams for decades, easier to sell a laughable team for a couple of years to end up with something like this.

Buffalo will be the envy of the league 5 years from now if their management goes scorched Earth.

 

[King'sPawn]

I like what Buffalo is doing now. The scorched Earth tear it down strategy.

They will get two top 10 picks this year, one of which being a perfect compliment to Dahlin. Say they trade with the Kings for Reinart and get Johnson with the pick. They likely get a few good young pieces from whoever trades for Eichel, say hypothetically they were to get Kaako as the big piece from NYR.

Suddenly they have

Dahlin (21)
Power (18)
K. Johnson (18)
Kaako (20)
Cozens (20)
R. Johnson (20)

They send Power and Johnson back to school for a year and field what will almost surely be the worst team in the NHL. They are in position to draft Wright, Lambert or Savoie in 2022 all of whom look like they could have star potential.

They are terrible again in 2022-2023 and are suddenly in a position to hit the jackpot with Bedard or Michkov who both look like they have generational potential. You know a draft is loaded when someone like Adam Fantilli is projected to go #3.

After the 2023 draft (only 2 short years from now) they have

Bedard/Michkov/Fantilli (18). (#1, #2, or #3 OA picks)
Wright/Lamber/Savoie (19) (#1, #2, #3 OA picks)
Kaako (22) (#2OA pick)
Dahlin (23) (#1 OA pick)
Power (20) (#1 OA pick)
K. Johnson (20) (Top 10 pick)
Cozens (22) (Top 10 pick)
R. Johnson (1st round pick)

This is why scorched Earth is better to do than what Blake has done. Buffalo has a stronger more loyal fanbase than LA though, that city has suffered with it's two teams for decades, easier to sell a laughable team for a couple of years to end up with something like this.

Buffalo will be the envy of the league 5 years from now if their management goes scorched Earth.

Drafting means jack without development and vision.

Plus scorched earth and risking falling out of the top-2 for 2023 is a really bad idea, especially since you can't win the lottery more than 2 years in a row.

Plus, a year changes a lot. This time last year, Raty was the expected No. 1 overall.

Scorched earth is a bad policy.

 

[Herby]

Drafting means jack without development and vision.

Plus scorched earth and risking falling out of the top-2 for 2023 is a really bad idea, especially since you can't win the lottery more than 2 years in a row.

Plus, a year changes a lot. This time last year, Raty was the expected No. 1 overall.

Scorched earth is a bad policy.

The same was said when Pittsburgh did it and had Top 3 picks for four straight years, they turned out ok.

The next two drafts just have so much potential in the Top 3. Even if they don't win it they are still going to get studs in back to back drafts. The vision is to add a bunch of elite players and build around them, that is what they are apparently going to do.

What is the development and vision of the Kings rebuild? Seems to be just accumulating like Buffalo is going to do but with less talented players?

Why do we trust the Kings who haven't exactly set the world on fire with drafting and development the last decade but not Buffalo?

What would you do if you were Buffalo's GM?

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

I like what Buffalo is doing now. The scorched Earth tear it down strategy.

They will get two top 10 picks this year, one of which being a perfect compliment to Dahlin. Say they trade with the Kings for Reinart and get Johnson with the pick. They likely get a few good young pieces from whoever trades for Eichel, say hypothetically they were to get Kaako as the big piece from NYR.

Suddenly they have

Dahlin (21)
Power (18)
K. Johnson (18)
Kaako (20)
Cozens (20)
R. Johnson (20)

They send Power and Johnson back to school for a year and field what will almost surely be the worst team in the NHL. They are in position to draft Wright, Lambert or Savoie in 2022 all of whom look like they could have star potential.

They are terrible again in 2022-2023 and are suddenly in a position to hit the jackpot with Bedard or Michkov who both look like they have generational potential. You know a draft is loaded when someone like Adam Fantilli is projected to go #3.

After the 2023 draft (only 2 short years from now) they have

Bedard/Michkov/Fantilli (18). (#1, #2, or #3 OA picks)
Wright/Lamber/Savoie (19) (#1, #2, #3 OA picks)
Kaako (22) (#2OA pick)
Dahlin (23) (#1 OA pick)
Power (20) (#1 OA pick)
K. Johnson (20) (Top 10 pick)
Cozens (22) (Top 10 pick)
R. Johnson (1st round pick)

This is why scorched Earth is better to do than what Blake has done. Buffalo has a stronger more loyal fanbase than LA though, that city has suffered with it's two teams for decades, easier to sell a laughable team for a couple of years to end up with something like this.

Buffalo will be the envy of the league 5 years from now if their management goes scorched Earth.

Zero guarantees of that.

With respect, what do you think they were doing in the early 2010s when their leading scorers were Ennis and Hodgson?

Wright would just be the new Eichel if they don't manage better around that. Whether it's drafting or development, they have a remarkable inability to get the most out of their players, even up to the vets like Hall and Skinner. There's gotta be more to the puzzle than fail and hope.

 

[Herby]

Zero guarantees of that.

With respect, what do you think they were doing in the early 2010s when their leading scorers were Ennis and Hodgson?

Wright would just be the new Eichel if they don't manage better around that. Whether it's drafting or development, they have a remarkable inability to get the most out of their players, even up to the vets like Hall and Skinner.

Buffalo made the playoffs in 2010, 2011 and missed the playoffs in 2012 by 3 points. They were only really terrible for 2 years (sound familiar) picking 2nd twice. Hardly scorched Earth.

Zero guarantees of what?

If they are the worst team in the NHL the next two years they are guaranteed to be picking in the Top 3 with the new rules.

I'll ask you the same question, why don't you have these same concerns with the vision of Kings rebuild? This is the same GM and scouting staff that have been here through this blackhole of drafts for so long. The Kings haven't exactly been efficient in drafting and developing recently, why do Rob Blake and Mark Yanetti get the benefit of the doubt?

What would you do if you were Buffalo, try and pick 8th every year? That is the worst thing possible.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Zero guarantees of what?

If they are the worst team in the NHL the next two years they are guaranteed to be picking in the Top 3.

I'll ask you the same question, why don't you have these same concerns with the vision of Kings rebuild? This is the same GM and scouting staff that have been here through this blackhole of drafts for so long. The Kings haven't exactly been efficient in drafting and developing recently, why do Rob Blake and Mark Yanetti get the benefit of the doubt?

What would you do if you were Buffalo, try and pick 8th every year?

Zero guarantees that every one of those guys hits and they'd be the envy of the league, particularly with their draft record.

I do have concerns with the Kings rebuild--I'm not sure Blake has a vision. He previously articulated the need for character and they've drafted that--but my concern is that what happens this summer matters most, it's a shit or get off the pot moment. We also completely disagree on the Kings drafting track record, because I've shown you MANY metrics that show how effective the Kings drafting has been even in the absence of top picks--what they've been missing over the last decade is usually only found in the lottery that they only recently re-entered.

If I were Buffalo I'd have my ownership group shut their f***ing mouth and throw lots of money at scouting, development, and facilities. They destroy their 1st round talent, don't do much outside the 1st round, trade for players that were effective elsewhere and turn to garbage in Buffalo--it's the reverse Midas touch. And if you recall, they recently cut a LOT of hockey personnel too. That's systematic rot, not bad luck with drafting, and it's unlikely to be corrected by simply trading Eichel and tanking. Hope isn't a strategy.

 

[kingsholygrail]

Ofcourse discrediting Tampa with a lame excuse rather than admitting that it is possible for a smaller skilled team to win. You must have missed the Penguins back to back cups as well? The Pens had a massive roster with behemoth tough guys like Sidney Crosby, Bryan Rust, Kris Letang, Phil Kessell, Carl Hagelin, Trevor Daley, Jake Guentzel, Connor Sheary and Patric Hornqvist.

Tampa has the best record in the NHL over the past 7 seasons, has won a Cup, lost in the final another year and is in the semi-final this year. Yeah their roster made up largely of smaller skilled forwards clearly has no idea how to win.

Tampa also got swept by the Blue Jackets.

 

[King'sPawn]

The same was said when Pittsburgh did it and had Top 3 picks for four straight years, they turned out ok.

The next two drafts just have so much potential in the Top 3. Even if they don't win it they are still going to get studs in back to back drafts. The vision is to add a bunch of elite players and build around them, that is what they are apparently going to do.

What is the development and vision of the Kings rebuild? Seems to be just accumulating like Buffalo is going to do but with less talented players?

Why do we trust the Kings who haven't exactly set the world on fire with drafting and development the last decade but not Buffalo?

What would you do if you were Buffalo's GM?

Pittsburgh traded up for No.1 in 2003 and won a unique lottery in 2005. They recovered from incompetence and unique luck.

The Kings have a history of developing a defensive mindset. Defensemen and two-way forwards. They at least have a history of that. Blake is trying to add speed and skill, but I didn't say the Kings were doing it right, either. In fact, I've said multiple times their current approach, whether it's vision or staff, has not been working as far as developing skill and offense.

Want a good example of a team where scorched earth doesn't work? Buffalo. They actively traded away the goalie who was keeping them in games so they would have a better shot at McDavid. They lost the lottery and got Eichel. Since then, they won the Dahlin lottery.

Check this... Buffalo has had *8* straight top-10 picks. 2021 will be their 9th straight. That span includes a 1st overall pick and back-to-back 2nd overall. What the ever-loving ****is LEFT to tear down?

The issue is scouting/development/vision/management. It's not the roster at this point.

 

[Herby]

I have never once questioned that the Kings are great at finding depth players in the draft. That is a small piece of drafting. But no I'm not going to applaud players like Nick Shore, Michael Amadio, Andy Andreoff and the like. You can call them NHL players, but these are all replacement level players that add as much as a veteran FA signing for the league minimum.

I'll give them credit for drafting Cernak, Kubalik and Roy who are all quality NHL players. But with 2/3 of them their obviously wasn't much in regards to evaluation after picking them. Unless DL and Blake didn't consult with their scouting staffs for current evaluations before giving one away and doing whatever it was they did with Kubalik.

We will see though. You can take the LA rebuild and I will take the Buffalo and we will see where things stand 5 years from now.

 

[Herby]

Pittsburgh traded up for No.1 in 2003 and won a unique lottery in 2005. They recovered from incompetence and unique luck.

The Kings have a history of developing a defensive mindset. Defensemen and two-way forwards. They at least have a history of that. Blake is trying to add speed and skill, but I didn't say the Kings were doing it right, either. In fact, I've said multiple times their current approach, whether it's vision or staff, has not been working as far as developing skill and offense.

Want a good example of a team where scorched earth doesn't work? Buffalo. They actively traded away the goalie who was keeping them in games so they would have a better shot at McDavid. They lost the lottery and got Eichel. Since then, they won the Dahlin lottery.

Check this... Buffalo has had *8* straight top-10 picks. 2021 will be their 9th straight. That span includes a 1st overall pick and back-to-back 2nd overall. What the ever-loving ****is LEFT to tear down?

The issue is scouting/development/vision/management. It's not the roster at this point.

Buffalo didn't have enough elite picks. They had three of them, drafted one superstar, and one ok player. They had a lot of what is the worst thing, being bad enough to miss the playoffs but not terrible enough to end up with elite picks, the same thing that has plagued the Kings since the 2nd cup. There is not a worse spot to be picking than 8-12.

The McDavid decision was whatever, they were trying to get the guy who is the best player to enter the league since Mario Lemieux. I thought it was a worthy play by playing the odds. They struck out, but he was a once in a few decades type player.

 

[Herby]

Tampa also got swept by the Blue Jackets.

Yes, so?

Chicago lost in the 1st round in both 2011 and 2012. Pittsburgh lost to Montreal in 2010. Teams are going to have hiccup years, it's the NHL.

They have still been the best team in the NHL over the past 7 years with a SC win, a finals loss and are on the brink of returning to the finals this season. I don't see how that is a bad thing.