Around the League 20-21 Thread: Playoffs Edition

[King'sPawn]

Buffalo didn't have enough elite picks. They had three of them, drafted one superstar, and one ok player. They had a lot of what is the worst thing, being bad enough to miss the playoffs but not terrible enough to end up with elite picks, the same thing that has plagued the Kings since the 2nd cup. There is not a worse spot to be picking than 8-12.

The McDavid decision was whatever, they were trying to get the guy who is the best player to enter the league since Mario Lemieux. I thought it was a worthy play by playing the odds. They struck out, but he was a once in a few decades type player.

So your philosophy is be the worst team for as long as you can.

Pittsburgh, Tampa Bay, Washington and Chicago have all had ONE first overall pick as part of their core for their cup teams. Boston, St. Louis and LA have had 0.

Why is Buffalo the only team who needs multiple first overall picks to get the elite players they need? Why can't they acquire them with other top-10 picks like the rest of the league has been able to do (aside from Edmonton, but they still haven't won anything with their core of multiple 1st overalls).

 

[YP44]

So your philosophy is be the worst team for as long as you can.

Pittsburgh, Tampa Bay, Washington and Chicago have all had ONE first overall pick as part of their core for their cup teams. Boston, St. Louis and LA have had 0.

Why is Buffalo the only team who needs multiple first overall picks to get the elite players they need? Why can't they acquire them with other top-10 picks like the rest of the league has been able to do (aside from Edmonton, but they still haven't won anything with their core of multiple 1st overalls).

because you need to hit on picks other than just your top picks. Buffalo and Edmonton have sucked at that.

 

[SFKingshomer]

because you need to hit on picks other than just your top picks. Buffalo and Edmonton have sucked at that.

That and the Oilers had #1 in mediocre to terrible drafts.

 

[Herby]

So your philosophy is be the worst team for as long as you can.

Pittsburgh, Tampa Bay, Washington and Chicago have all had ONE first overall pick as part of their core for their cup teams. Boston, St. Louis and LA have had 0.

Why is Buffalo the only team who needs multiple first overall picks to get the elite players they need? Why can't they acquire them with other top-10 picks like the rest of the league has been able to do (aside from Edmonton, but they still haven't won anything with their core of multiple 1st overalls).

Nope not as long as you can. I think Buffalo can trade Reinart and Eichel, be horrible in the next 2 years and then be ready to roll. But I also don't believe in the super slow rebuild like some here do, if you get the right impact players it can be turned around quickly. They are then loaded with elite young players mostly on ELC's. They are so loaded they can do what Blake should do if he won't scorch Earth and trade a couple of pieces for a veteran in his prime. You still have a loaded system and now you have the cap freedom to add to it. You also have the cap space to bring in quality older veterans who are good in the room, you know like Dean did with the Kings in his early years. No one is suggesting to run with a team full of guys under 23.

It's not strictly first overall picks, the odds are Buffalo will not get a 1st overall pick, but being the worst team guarantees you no worse than the 3, the 3 is going to provide an opportunity to draft potential superstars in the next 2 drafts. They know this, that is why they are unloading Reinart. The higher you draft the more likely you are to draft an elite player, again I know that you know this. Why would they not try and tank to draft those players, does having stupid seasons like the Kings had in 15, 17, and 21 help you in any way? Of the Top 25 scorers in the NHL this year 12 were taken with Top 4 picks.

You cite Raty, yes one example for sure. But for the most part the best players in the league were all identified as younger players, sure some fall through the cracks and to quote a popular word "fizzle out" but most don't, I know you know that. The odds of any of those players not being elite prospects on their draft night are very slim.

I am a believer that players win championships, not managers. Dean Lombardi won squat in SJ and suddenly comes to LA inherits two hall of fame players, drafts another and wins. He hasn't been able to find a GM job since. Ray Shero inherits three Hall of Fame players, wins a championship and is laughably bad in his next spot. John Muckler and Glen Sather in Edmonton, never won squat without their Hall of Famers. Dale Tallon wins a championship in Chicago with his Hall of Fame core, goes to Florida and can't do anything.

 

[Bandit]

You bought into the notion that Tampa was "to soft"

When did I say that?

Why do we have to hear the excuses like "Won in the bubble" or "Going to fizzle out" when things we say are proven wrong.

- Because last season and this one were/are extraordinary circumstances and they will always have an asterisk on them as far as I'm concerned.
- This is where you keep going wrong, I have not been proven wrong about Caufiled after 20 games, no matter how many times you say it.

Seems like you just wanna argue about anything and everything with everyone right now.

 

[Bandit]

They probably got married at the "Chapel-O-Love". I like how he just walks off without her too. Stay classy Vegas.

 

[SFKingshomer]

I never said I want a small defense. Defense is one area where yes, you want more size, you can't win with a bunch of sub 6' d-man, I never said otherwise. As much as I loved Erik Karlsson and Quinn Hughes and believe they are difference making players, I always said you need to have the right partner for them. I never said I wanted a team of 5'7 players. But having a 5'7 player with an elite skill set doesn't prevent teams from winning, especially with how important being able to score on the PP is to the success of a team with how many penalties are called in the modern NHL. You just choose to reject having a player like that straight up, no matter how good they may be, you will take a less talented 6 footer, to each his own I guess.

Tampa and Pittsburgh played nothing like the Kings did, which you think is the only way to win. Vegas is built on the strength of wingers, which flies in the face of the Kings organizational philosophy of strength down the middle. You think Dean Lombardi builds a team with William Karlsson and Chandler Stephenson as the 1-2's down the middle? The whole point is there are plenty of ways to win in the league and the teams who have won the last decade back that up. You bought into the notion that Tampa was "to soft" and then they won, and instead of just giving them credit we are now at the point of resorting to "They won in the bubble" excuse. Why can't you just give them credit for what they accomplished and say "you know what, I was wrong, I didn't think they could win that way and they did". I didn't think the Kings could win playing a defensive style in the post lockout era, when they did I just admitted I was wrong, why is that so tough to do? Everyone has been wrong on this board, some of us (myself included) spectacularly wrong. Why do we have to hear the excuses like "Won in the bubble" or "Going to fizzle out" when things we say are proven wrong.

TB is soft and didn’t win until they added some grit. Cernak, Coleman, and Goodrow were great additions. Also, Vegas has the worst group of centers I’ve seen go this far. Can you name any worse? Maybe the Ducks with Rucchin/Pahlsson? NJ? It usually takes 2 good top 6 centers to win…

Crosby/Malkin
Datsyuk/Zetterberg
Toews/Sharp
Modano/Nieuwendyk
Yzerman/Datsyuk
Gretzky/Messier
Sakic/Forsberg

 

[Herby]

- Because last season and this one were/are extraordinary circumstances and they will always have an asterisk on them as far as I'm concerned.
- This is where you keep going wrong, I have not been proven wrong about Caufiled after 20 games, no matter how many times you say it.

Seems like you just wanna argue about anything and everything with everyone right now.

Ok, if you didn't say that I apologize and was wrong for saying it. Now I'd appreciate if you would do the same and stop saying that I am calling or have ever called Caufield a generational talent. I have said on numerous occasions when you bring it up I don't feel that way but you keep saying it.

Tampa has been the best team in the league for 7 seasons. They have won more regular season games and more playoff series than any team in that time. Is it possible that maybe just maybe they were the best team in the NHL last year and deserved to win a championship? Cheapening their win, or the Dodgers or the Lakers is ridiculous.

Caufield doing what hes done so far has already proven you wrong since a midget like him shouldn't be able to produce in the big, tough, ehavy checking playoffs. I would say doubting a guy the day he was drafted and then less than 2 years later having that player playing 1st line on a team in the Semi-Finals might constitute you are wrong. But even if he scores 40 goals and makes the Olympic team next year you will probably just go back to the "He's going to suffer a career ending injury" since that one worked out so well the last time.

 

[Herby]

TB is soft and didn’t win until they added some grit. Cernak, Coleman, and Goodrow were great additions. Also, Vegas has the worst group of centers I’ve seen go this far. Can you name any worse? Maybe the Ducks with Ruccin and Pahlson and Neidermayer? NJ? It usually takes 2 good top 6 centers to win…

Crosby/Malkin
Datsyuk/Zetterberg
Toews/Sharp
Modano/Niuewendyk
Yzerman/Datsyuk
Gretzky/Messier
Sakic/Forsberg

There are plenty of ways to win the Stanley Cup. I do agree it's unusual for a team with such weak centers to win the SC, but no more unusual than a team without multiple Hall of Fame players. Going back to 1995 lockout look at the rosters and the Hall of Famers or guys who will be Hall of Famers when they retire.

1995- Brodeur, Stevens, Niedermayer
1996- Sakic, Roy, Forsberg
1997- Yzerman, Fedorov, Lidstrom, Shanahan
1998- Yzerman, Fedorov, Lidstrom, Shanahan
1999- Modano, Hull, Zubov
2000- Brodeur, Stevens, Niedermayer
2001- Sakic, Bourque, Roy, Blake, Forsberg
2002- Yzerman, Fedorov, Lidstrom, Robitaille, Hull, Shanahan
2003- Brodeur, Stevens, Niedermayer
2004- St. Louis
2006- None
2007- Pronger, Niedermayer, Selanne
2008- Lidstrom, Datsyuk, Zetterberg
2009- Crosby, Malkin, Fleury
2010- Kane, Toews, Keith
2011- Chara, Bergeron
2012- Kopitar, Doughty, Quick
2013- Kane, Toews, Keith
2014- Kopitar, Doughty, Quick
2015- Kane, Toews, Quick
2016- Crosby, Malkin
2017- Crosby, Malkin
2018- Ovechkin, Backstrom
2019- None
2020- Stamkos, Hedman, Kucherov

I like your takes but your obsession with all things centers has made you say some unfortunate things. Remember when Kane was a passenger strictly because the position he played. Kane was an absolute superstar in those playoffs and I feel like you should have seen that but just sometimes refuse to see the value in scoring wingers.

But ya, you are right, if they win this would be one of the few teams that has won without an elite center. Should it mean that teams should abandon trying to accumulate centers? No, absolutely not, having an elite center has been the best path to championships, just as having Hall of Fame (anything) is the same thing. But why do people want to emulate the 2019 Blues instead of acknowledging they were an outlier? It's the same situation, yet that is the team that the stick with the the plan guys seem to want to build like. Doesn't make much sense to me.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

I have never once questioned that the Kings are great at finding depth players in the draft. That is a small piece of drafting. But no I'm not going to applaud players like Nick Shore, Michael Amadio, Andy Andreoff and the like. You can call them NHL players, but these are all replacement level players that add as much as a veteran FA signing for the league minimum.

I'll give them credit for drafting Cernak, Kubalik and Roy who are all quality NHL players. But with 2/3 of them their obviously wasn't much in regards to evaluation after picking them. Unless DL and Blake didn't consult with their scouting staffs for current evaluations before giving one away and doing whatever it was they did with Kubalik.

We will see though. You can take the LA rebuild and I will take the Buffalo and we will see where things stand 5 years from now.

Alright, this has turned into bad faith discussion. Have fun with that. Especially given you note a team repeatedly placing IMPACT 7th rounders into the NHL and just brush past it.

Okay yeah, would love to have this discussion in 5 years. Buffalo's infrastructure is absolutely fried. If they get 'saved,' its' because Wright or Bedard is McDavid II and drags them to the first round by the skin of their teeth, or a coach finds out how to get the most out of a roster that actually has some good talent that is woefully underperforming imo. It won't be because of drafting/development.

Ok, if you didn't say that I apologize and was wrong for saying it. Now I'd appreciate if you would do the same and stop saying that I am calling or have ever called Caufield a generational talent. I have said on numerous occasions when you bring it up I don't feel that way but you keep saying it.

Tampa has been the best team in the league for 7 seasons. They have won more regular season games and more playoff series than any team in that time. Is it possible that maybe just maybe they were the best team in the NHL last year and deserved to win a championship? Cheapening their win, or the Dodgers or the Lakers is ridiculous.

Caufield doing what hes done so far has already proven you wrong since a midget like him shouldn't be able to produce in the big, tough, ehavy checking playoffs. I would say doubting a guy the day he was drafted and then less than 2 years later having that player playing 1st line on a team in the Semi-Finals might constitute you are wrong. But even if he scores 40 goals and makes the Olympic team next year you will probably just go back to the "He's going to suffer a career ending injury" since that one worked out so well the last time.

Come on, Herby. Caufield is awesome but he's scoring at an 8 goal, 40 point pace right now. If Turcotte did that you'd take the chance to say "i told you so" to anyone that would listen. Let's not pretend the current production is what we're banking on.

 

[Herby]

Alright, this has turned into bad faith discussion. Have fun with that. Especially given you note a team repeatedly placing IMPACT 7th rounders into the NHL and just brush past it.

Okay yeah, would love to have this discussion in 5 years. Buffalo's infrastructure is absolutely fried. If they get 'saved,' its' because Wright or Bedard is McDavid II and drags them to the first round by the skin of their teeth, or a coach finds out how to get the most out of a roster that actually has some good talent that is woefully underperforming imo. It won't be because of drafting/development.




Come on, Herby. Caufield is awesome but he's scoring at an 8 goal, 40 point pace right now. If Turcotte did that you'd take the chance to say "i told you so" to anyone that would listen. Let's not pretend the current production is what we're banking on.

The first part is fair enough. I think the draft should more be judged by the impact players you add and not the depth players. Since those are just easier to find on FA or in the case of guys like Shore, Amadio and Andreoff on the wire.

The second part is ludicrous. Based on your ridiculous logic why aren't I ripping into QB for scoring at a much less pace than Stutzle? Shouldn't I be ripping into him? Is that the case?

If Alex Turcotte had looked like Cole Caufield looked this year in the NHL in his D+2 at barely 20 I would absolutely not be having that take, I swear on my daughters life. I can't believe you would be suggesting that, I know we have our battles on this board but that might be the most ridiculous thing you have ever said to me, no joke.

P.s. 5 goals in 20 games is not an 8 goal pace.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

What a ridiculous pass from Kucherov to Point.

 

[unicornpig]

would kill for the kings to have a player like kucherov or pointe.

 

[unicornpig]

pelech is an idiot.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

would kill for the kings to have a player like kucherov or pointe.

Wouldn’t you rather have Roland McKeown or Alex Lintuniemi?

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

That's a shitty call but I understand why they 'have' to call it.

Can't just have guys going "whoops couldn't adjust my skates in time" or goalies could get murdered several times a night.

 

[Bandit]

That's a shitty call but I understand why they 'have' to call it.

Can't just have guys going "whoops couldn't adjust my skates in time" or goalies could get murdered several times a night.

Don’t tell bolts fans that. The salt is real.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

That's a shitty call but I understand why they 'have' to call it.

Can't just have guys going "whoops couldn't adjust my skates in time" or goalies could get murdered several times a night.

No, that’s a bad call. Point doesn’t bowl over Varlamov if he isn’t shoved into him by Pelech. He had a scoring chance with the puck on his stick.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

The first part is fair enough. I think the draft should more be judged by the impact players you add and not the depth players. Since those are just easier to find on FA or in the case of guys like Shore, Amadio and Andreoff on the wire.

The second part is ludicrous. Based on your ridiculous logic why aren't I ripping into QB for scoring at a much less pace than Stutzle? Shouldn't I be ripping into him? Is that the case?

If Alex Turcotte had looked like Cole Caufield looked this year in the NHL in his D+2 at barely 20 I would absolutely not be having that take, I swear on my daughters life. I can't believe you would be suggesting that, I know we have our battles on this board but that might be the most ridiculous thing you have ever said to me, no joke.

P.s. 5 goals in 20 games is not an 8 goal pace.

To the boldfaced--I don't disagree. But for sheer draft-position-to-value, the Kings were an absolute drafting machine the last decade +. That's why they have some goodwill at this point, so we can see what they do with higher picks.

To the second part--I was looking at your statement saying Caufield is producing in the playoffs. He looks great, but he has 1 goal (last game), 5 points in 10 playoff games. That's hardly what I'd rest my case on.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Don’t tell bolts fans that. The salt is real.

You’d be incensed if that call was made against the Kings, as would I. Terrible call.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

No, that’s a bad call. Point doesn’t bowl over Varlamov if he isn’t shoved into him by Pelech. He had a scoring chance with the puck on his stick.

I agree, I said shitty call. But Point isn't the first guy to get fouled from behind yet somehow most guys find a way to not tuck their shoulder into the goalie's dome.

I personally wouldn't have called it and I would have just told Pelech he's a jackass but this is game management reffing that everyone expects, i don't know why anyone would be surprised

 

[Herby]

What a ridiculous pass from Kucherov to Point.

Just toys. Don't make a difference in winning.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

I agree, I said shitty call. But Point isn't the first guy to get fouled from behind yet somehow most guys find a way to not tuck their shoulder into the goalie's dome.

I personally wouldn't have called it and I would have just told Pelech he's a jackass but this is game management reffing that everyone expects.

I don’t see Point tucking his shoulder to blast Varlamov.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Like I said, not defending it, I'm just not as shocked by it as apparently a ton of the hockey world is.

 

[Herby]

To the second part--I was looking at your statement saying Caufield is producing in the playoffs. He looks great, but he has 1 goal (last game), 5 points in 10 playoff games. That's hardly what I'd rest my case on.

How about having a historic season in one of the NHL's best feeder leagues and then almost immediately stepping onto an NHL teams 1st line, after a brief cup of coffee domination of the NHL's best feeder league? I mean at what point do we just concede that the (I admit valid) concerns at the time are just not. Players who aren't going to be stars very rarely look like that in the AHL in D+2 or play on the 1st line of a playoff team.

You got to stop with the hater stuff. I don't hate Turcotte, I have said numerous times I wish the Kings had gone in another direction, that does not mean I hate him. You know how highly I think of both Caufield and Zegras, so why does me saying I think they are better prospects hating? I mean, that is kind of a consensus view outside of this board, you can disagree with it but atleast acknowledge it. I also think they are better than Kaako and Dach, does that make me a Dach hater? Damn a couple of weeks ago you accused me of overhyping Dach.