Around the League 20-21 Thread: Playoffs Edition

[tomd]

That’s my point, Avs hung onto their picks and got rid of players like Duchene to get better in other areas.

They also have the 8th youngest team in the league, and six of their regulars in the lineup are 24 or younger, and they only have three players on the roster who are in their 30s.

Worth pointing out that the majority of Colorado's current roster was built via trades. Mackinnon, Rantanen, Landeskog, and Makar are the drafted core. Almost every else of any consequence was acquired outside the organization.

Also worth pointing out that Colorado didn't do a rebuild keeping their top 5 highest paid veterans.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Worth pointing out that the majority of Colorado's current roster was built via trades. Mackinnon, Rantanen, Landeskog, and Makar are the drafted core. Almost every else of any consequence was acquired outside the organization.

Also worth pointing out that Colorado didn't do a rebuild keeping their top 5 highest paid veterans.

Worth pointing out that Colorado also went eight consecutive years without winning a playoff round, and missed the playoffs in six of those years. We also heard similar vocal critics (like yourself) who called Joe Sakic the worst GM in the league during that time.

 

[Bandit]

That’s my point, Avs hung onto their picks and got rid of players like Duchene to get better in other areas.

They also have the 8th youngest team in the league, and six of their regulars in the lineup are 24 or younger, and they only have three players on the roster who are in their 30s.

I dunno, maybe we’re saying the same thing but if so it means that we’ve got 5 more years before Vilardi = Landeskog and that’s not even taking into account Vilardi’s stunted development.

 

[Schrute farms]

That’s not a high stick - but how is that not a hit to the roughing head?!? Refs blew that and it’s going to get worse. Someone on avs is going down hurt with some dirty knights crap eventually

 

[Bandit]

Yeah that was a headshot but refs gonna ref.

 

[KingsFan7824]

Worth pointing out that the majority of Colorado's current roster was built via trades. Mackinnon, Rantanen, Landeskog, and Makar are the drafted core. Almost every else of any consequence was acquired outside the organization.

Also worth pointing out that Colorado didn't do a rebuild keeping their top 5 highest paid veterans.

Also worth pointing out that Colorado didn't do a rebuild this time with any of the players that won a Cup for them still on the team. The cap doesn't matter though. It's really an irrelevant part of the process. Also worth noting that they kind of did a rebuild of a rebuild. Even after sucking in 2009, they still sucked in 2011, and still sucked in 2013, and still sucked yet again in 2017.

But yes, an annoying thing is when people make a projected roster of only prospects. That's never happened, that's never going to happen. It's pointless.

Also worth pointing out that really nobody is saying the Kings should never make a trade ever again. It's more a question of doing it now, or doing it later. Do you do it before the team even makes the playoffs? Before you even know what you have in prospects? And yes, it sucks that Kopitar and Doughty have had to suffer through the losing, but they both willingly signed here, and then both contributed to the downfall of the post-2014 team. The contracts make them basically untradeable, but then the cap doesn't mean anything, so bad teams should be able to get rid of all their veterans, no matter what their contracts are.

 

[KingsFan7824]

Come on Vegas, do more violence. If you're going to lose, go out swinging. If only the Kings had .10% of this giving a damn.

 

[Schrute farms]

Well that was predictable. Reeves was hunting like a shark. Just a matter of time.

 

[ru4reals]

Come on Vegas, do more violence. If you're going to lose, go out swinging. If only the Kings had .10% of this giving a damn.

Said it many times before Kings would watch their player get smoked, tuck their tail and run the other way.

 

[tomd]

Worth pointing out that Colorado also went eight consecutive years without winning a playoff round, and missed the playoffs in six of those years. We also heard similar vocal critics (like yourself) who called Joe Sakic the worst GM in the league during that time.

Interestingly Colorado has only finished with a sub .500 record 3 times in the last 11 years of their rebuild and never in consecutive years. They got very lucky the years they were bad though...2011 (Landeskog), 2013 (MacKinnon), and 2017 (Makar). Winning the lottery in 2013 didn't hurt either.

I don't recall criticizing Sakic (I'm not sure why I would have) but he got exceptionally lucky in getting the foundational players needed to rebuild. Do you think the Kings have been similarly lucky? I sure don't. And like I said, Sakic didn't keep his most expensive players as part of the rebuild. How Blake thought that would work is beyond me but no one seems to want to talk about that.

 

[tomd]

Also worth pointing out that Colorado didn't do a rebuild this time with any of the players that won a Cup for them still on the team. The cap doesn't matter though. It's really an irrelevant part of the process. Also worth noting that they kind of did a rebuild of a rebuild. Even after sucking in 2009, they still sucked in 2011, and still sucked in 2013, and still sucked yet again in 2017.

But yes, an annoying thing is when people make a projected roster of only prospects. That's never happened, that's never going to happen. It's pointless.

Also worth pointing out that really nobody is saying the Kings should never make a trade ever again. It's more a question of doing it now, or doing it later. Do you do it before the team even makes the playoffs? Before you even know what you have in prospects? And yes, it sucks that Kopitar and Doughty have had to suffer through the losing, but they both willingly signed here, and then both contributed to the downfall of the post-2014 team. The contracts make them basically untradeable, but then the cap doesn't mean anything, so bad teams should be able to get rid of all their veterans, no matter what their contracts are.

I actually don't disagree with anything you said. My takeaways are that (1) rebuilds take a lot of luck and (2) that rebuilds should NEVER be attempted if you have no reasonable way of getting rid of your top 5 most expensive players. Especially if those players are on long term deals and are still your best players.

 

[KingsFan7824]

Interestingly Colorado has only finished with a sub .500 record 3 times in the last 11 years of their rebuild and never in consecutive years. They got very lucky the years they were bad though...2011 (Landeskog), 2013 (MacKinnon), and 2017 (Makar). Winning the lottery in 2013 didn't hurt either.

I don't recall criticizing Sakic (I'm not sure why I would have) but he got exceptionally lucky in getting the foundational players needed to rebuild. Do you think the Kings have been similarly lucky? I sure don't. And like I said, Sakic didn't keep his most expensive players as part of the rebuild. How Blake thought that would work is beyond me but no one seems to want to talk about that.

What expensive players have the Avs had?

 

[tomd]

What expensive players have the Avs had?

Duchene I suppose but that's my point...they were primed and in the proper position to do a rebuild. The Kings were not in a similar position in 18-19 however badly you wanted them to be. And as a result the Kings are in no-mans land...can't continue to tank but don't have the right pieces to get materially better without trading many of the players they've just drafted. A bad place to be.

 

[Schrute farms]

I wish my team had Makar

 

[tomd]

I wish my team had Makar

So do the fans of 30 other teams!

 

[KingsFan7824]

I actually don't disagree with anything you said. My takeaways are that (1) rebuilds take a lot of luck and (2) that rebuilds should NEVER be attempted if you have no reasonable way of getting rid of your top 5 most expensive players. Especially if those players are on long term deals and are still your best players.

The problem for Blake was that the Kings were one of the worst teams in the league half way through 18-19, coming off of the 14-15, 15-16, 16-17, and 17-18 seasons. Do you just keep throwing out the same players, who are now half a decade away from doing anything meaningful? That's all that would've happened. Nothing would've gotten better.

Yeah, most rebuilds don't end in a Cup. Most let's just try and be competitive don't end up in a Cup. If just making the playoffs is fine, maybe even win a round, then ok.

 

[tomd]

The problem for Blake was that the Kings were one of the worst teams in the league half way through 18-19, coming off of the 14-15, 15-16, 16-17, and 17-18 seasons. Do you just keep throwing out the same players, who are now half a decade away from doing anything meaningful? That's all that would've happened. Nothing would've gotten better.

Yeah, most rebuilds don't end in a Cup. Most let's just try and be competitive don't end up in a Cup. If just making the playoffs is fine, maybe even win a round, then ok.

Well this has been argued to death but it is now pretty apparent that the talent was there but the chemistry/desire/performance/culture or whatever you want to call it was not. Blake thought he could rebuild and get back into the playoffs in 21-22. I'm not sure how he figured he could do that but it's "show me" time now.

 

[KingsFan7824]

Duchene I suppose but that's my point...they were primed and in the proper position to do a rebuild. The Kings were not in a similar position in 18-19 however badly you wanted them to be. And as a result the Kings are in no-mans land...can't continue to tank but don't have the right pieces to get materially better without trading many of the players they've just drafted. A bad place to be.

They can continue to tank if they so choose. You're wrong on that one.

It's not that I want them to be bad in 18-19. They were atrocious. From day 1 of training camp. I honestly don't care if Kopitar and Doughty are sick of losing. Please, demand out. What kind of player willingly signs in Los Angeles anyway? Every player that has re-signed here after 2012 has pretty much gone downhill the moment they did so.

Acquire a lot of young talent, so that you can then one day trade at least some of it? Isn't that the point of a rebuild? You're all over the place, and just want to rip on the Kings, no matter what they do. The Kings were in no man's land in 18-19.

 

[tomd]

They can continue to tank if they so choose. You're wrong on that one.

It's not that I want them to be bad in 18-19. They were atrocious. From day 1 of training camp. I honestly don't care if Kopitar and Doughty are sick of losing. Please, demand out. What kind of player willingly signs in Los Angeles anyway? Every player that has re-signed here after 2012 has pretty much gone downhill the moment they did so.

Acquire a lot of young talent, so that you can then one day trade at least some of it? Isn't that the point of a rebuild? You're all over the place, and just want to rip on the Kings, no matter what they do. The Kings were in no man's land in 18-19.

Slow down! Blake has already said they are going to make moves to IMPROVE the team this summer and NOT continue to tank. They had the choice and they made it...no more tanking (at least not intentionally).

My point about trading young talent is simple...the Kings best trade chips are prospects and picks. None of the roster players are going to bring back a big return (excluding Doughty and Kopitar who aren't going anywhere...yet). Some of those picks and prospects are going to have to be dealt this summer to improve the roster. That is not ideal for a team 2.5 years into a "rebuild". I'm not arguing for or against it...it is just reality.

 

[KingsFan7824]

Slow down! Blake has already said they are going to make moves to IMPROVE the team this summer and NOT continue to tank. They had the choice and they made it...no more tanking (at least not intentionally).

My point about trading young talent is simple...the Kings best trade chips are prospects and picks. None of the roster players are going to bring back a big return (excluding Doughty and Kopitar who aren't going anywhere...yet). Some of those picks and prospects are going to have to be dealt this summer to improve the roster. That is not ideal for a team 2.5 years into a "rebuild". I'm not arguing for or against it...it is just reality.

Right. The only way to get any real value on this roster, in the organization at all, was to tank for high draft picks. Just like the Avs. Like any team that wants to do anything in the hard cap system.

 

[johnjm22]

And as a result the Kings are in no-mans land...can't continue to tank but don't have the right pieces to get materially better without trading many of the players they've just drafted. A bad place to be.

They can absolutely continue to tank. And they probably will.

And Blake saying they're going to improve the team is irrelevant.

 

[Peter James Bond III]

I wish my team had Makar

The Kings have Makar's defensive partner from the 2018 WJC...Kale Clague. And while Clague is not Makar, he can skate like him....and makes
very well timed and calculated pinches, in which he makes some great plays. I honestly think he will be a better version of Walker, but fear
he will be lost to Seattle or given up in a deal...then go on to become a 35 pt defenseman. The Kings need more offense from the backend
and he could sure help. He was not bad defensively in the games he got to play.

I have been in Denver / Ft Collins since 2006 and have several King jerseys, when I was in LA....but the only Avs jersey I have bought,
is a MAKAR practice jersey, while he was still in college.

 

[kingsfan28]

That’s not a high stick - but how is that not a hit to the roughing head?!? Refs blew that and it’s going to get worse. Someone on avs is going down hurt with some dirty knights crap eventually

you were right.

 

[tomd]

Right. The only way to get any real value on this roster, in the organization at all, was to tank for high draft picks. Just like the Avs. Like any team that wants to do anything in the hard cap system.

I have no problem with that...the problem was Blake's plan to do a rebuild in 3 years and make the playoffs in 21-22. Rebuilds take much longer than 3 years as the Colorado example shows.

 

[tomd]

They can absolutely continue to tank. And they probably will.

And Blake saying they're going to improve the team is irrelevant.

I just don't know how to have a conversation with someone who believes the GM of the team can lie directly to the players, fans, and sponsors. Especially about something that can be so easily shown to be a lie within the next 3 months. What does Blake tell everyone in October when the team has made zero improvements to the roster??