Around Hockey XII (All Non-Jackets Hockey talk in here)
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The beginning of this scenario is good, but doesn't go far enough.
1. Sign Bob (5M)
2. Sign Arty (2.5M?)
3. Amnesty RJ (drop 4.6M, net loss to cap 2.9M)
4. Look to acquire/sign 2 top six forwards - Who would be a candidate? My pipe dream is Bobby Ryan.
5. Re-sign Vinny (2M or less)
6. Possibly re-sign Comeau
6. Sign 3rd Goaltender - two way contract
Double-Shift Lasse
Just post better
FANonymous
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- Nov 7, 2010
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Honestly I'm not surprised by this. I have it on good information from someone inside the organization that he has cooties and eats his own boogers.
Mayor Bee
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- Dec 29, 2008
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Of course, because simply walking away is easier than actually discussing the point.
The closest thing we've seen to an actual "goaltending pipeline" in the last 15 years is Nashville. They started with Tomas Vokoun and Mike Dunham out of the expansion draft, then have selected:
Brian Finley (1st round, 1999)
Jan Lasak (2nd round, 1999)
Kyle Kettles (7th round, 1999)
Jure Penko (7th round, 2000)
Mike McKenna (6th round, 2002)
Matthew Davis (9th round, 2002)
Teemu Lassila (4th round, 2003)
Miroslav Hanuljak (7th round, 2003)
Kyle Moir (5th round, 2004)
Pekka Rinne (8th round, 2004)
Mark Dekanich (5th round, 2006)
Jeremy Smith (2nd round, 2007)
Atte Engren (7th round, 2007)
Chet Pickard (1st round, 2008)
Anders Lindback (7th round, 2008)
Magnus Hellberg (2nd round, 2011)
Marek Mazanec (6th round, 2012)
Goalies who have 25 career NHL games are bolded.
The entirety of what Nashville has managed to recoup out of all those goalies is as follows:
- 2007 2nd-rounder, 2008 1st-rounder, 2008 2nd-rounder (for Tomas Vokoun). This became Nick Spaling and Colin Wilson, since both 2008 picks were traded to move up two spots and take Wilson.
- 2012 2nd-rounder, 2012 2nd-rounder, 2013 3rd-rounder (for Anders Lindback)
- Rem Murray (for Mike Dunham)
Since Vokoun and Dunham were expansion draft picks, let's set those aside for a second. That means that out of all of those goalie picks that Nashville has made in 13 drafts (setting aside 2011 and 2012), they have Pekka Rinne, 38 games of Anders Lindback, less than 50 total NHL games from everyone else, and the return on Lindback (2 2nds and 1 3rd).
That's in exchange for two 1st-rounders, two 2nd-rounders, one 4th-rounder, two 5th-rounders, one 6th, four 7ths, and one 9th.
CapnCornelius
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- Oct 28, 2006
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I agree.
Look at Chicago. They let Niemi walk and won the Cup with a guy whose glove hand is poor, at best. If you build a solid enough defense, league average goaltending is good enough. Paying $5 million plus leaves you with guys like Luongo and Bryzgalov. It's poor cap management. And we're talking about that for a guy who has a mixed track record?
Robert
Foligno family
Mayor had a good point... you are done with more conversations recently than Carter has liver pills... (too many hissy fits)
LetsGOJackets!!
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Nanabijou
Booooooooooone
As Mayor points out, it's pretty damn near impossible to build a goalie pipeline. They are just so hit-and-miss to use draft picks on. The best you can hope is that you take a flyer on one or two with draft picks every year and hope one pans out now and then.
However, Blah makes a fair point about how sinking money long-term into a starting goalie is a good way to tie an anchor to a franchise. Many of the less desirable contracts in the league have been tied to goalies in recent years. The Brodeurs and Roys that can live up to the long-term contracts are seemingly becoming rarer and rarer.
However, Blah makes a fair point about how sinking money long-term into a starting goalie is a good way to tie an anchor to a franchise. Many of the less desirable contracts in the league have been tied to goalies in recent years. The Brodeurs and Roys that can live up to the long-term contracts are seemingly becoming rarer and rarer.
Sore Loser
Sorest of them all
Ultimate Small World Story?
I almost didn't believe my Father-In-Law tonight as we sat enjoying some short season, single-A baseball here in rainy Spokane, WA. He claimed that last night, they sat next to a famous hockey player, er, dare I say, the famous hockey player - Wayne Gretzky. Assured me that he had gotten me an autograph and all.
Why would Wayne Gretzky be in Spokane - and why would Wayne Gretzky be in Spokane, attending what is literally the lowest level of professional sports in the country? Apparently, one of The Great One's offspring plays for the mighty Boise Hawks, and he has a home not too far away, so he made the trek over to see his kid swing the old lumber. Sure enough, when my Father-in-Law finally figured out the iPhone and showed me the picture, there was Wayne, in all of his glory, posing for pictures with local yokels.
I kid you not.
I almost didn't believe my Father-In-Law tonight as we sat enjoying some short season, single-A baseball here in rainy Spokane, WA. He claimed that last night, they sat next to a famous hockey player, er, dare I say, the famous hockey player - Wayne Gretzky. Assured me that he had gotten me an autograph and all.
Why would Wayne Gretzky be in Spokane - and why would Wayne Gretzky be in Spokane, attending what is literally the lowest level of professional sports in the country? Apparently, one of The Great One's offspring plays for the mighty Boise Hawks, and he has a home not too far away, so he made the trek over to see his kid swing the old lumber. Sure enough, when my Father-in-Law finally figured out the iPhone and showed me the picture, there was Wayne, in all of his glory, posing for pictures with local yokels.
I kid you not.
EspenK
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- Sep 25, 2011
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Robert
Foligno family
It would have been even better if Wayne had told your father in law he was checking out Arena's in the area...
CapnCornelius
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- Oct 28, 2006
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Wayne has a house in Seattle. There's a difference between having a house somewhere and living somewhere when you are that rich.
Wayne actually lives on a regular basis in an area north of Los Angeles called Westlake Village. The son in question (Trevor) used to play football in high school and was the backup to Nick Montana, Joe's son. I believe that one of Will Smith's kids was also on the team because that's how they roll in that neck of the woods.
Sore Loser
Sorest of them all
Wayne also apparently has a cabin nearby - Northern Idaho or Western Montana, that he frequents in the summer. Not surprising. I used to work near the local airport, and some of my previous customers include Donte Cullpepper, Harvey Keitel, Andy Sipowitz (seriously, does anyone call him Dennis Franz?), and a few other decent level celebrities. There is a lot of money in this part of the country, for wealthy people who enjoy skiing, or even just great scenery.
We even saw Burt Reynolds once ... I immediately quoted Happy Gilmore "Wow ... must be Burt Reynolds or something..."
We even saw Burt Reynolds once ... I immediately quoted Happy Gilmore "Wow ... must be Burt Reynolds or something..."
EspenK
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- Sep 25, 2011
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Hockey players tough or stupid?
http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/2013/06/26/bergeron-has-been-in-boston-area-hospital-since-conclusion-of-game-6/
A hole in his lung. I'm no doctor but that seems a bit much to ignore to play a game.
http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/2013/06/26/bergeron-has-been-in-boston-area-hospital-since-conclusion-of-game-6/
A hole in his lung. I'm no doctor but that seems a bit much to ignore to play a game.
EspenK
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- Sep 25, 2011
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You're kidding me right? Letang turns down 54 mill wants 60 +?
http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/2013/06/27/report-penguins-offer-letang-an-eight-year-54-million-deal/
http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/2013/06/27/report-penguins-offer-letang-an-eight-year-54-million-deal/
Makes Wiz's contract look real good. He does know he's playing the post NHL lockout where the cap went down, right?
Sadly contracts like this are going to depress role player contracts, long term, as teams will be fighting to stay under the cap. I wonder how this is going to shake out over the next couple of years. If we keep paying pre-lockout prices during the post-lockout there are going to be additional problems if the cap doesn't climb steadily.
This is why I'm very concerned about Bob and his contract. What people are proposing for him is inflated even pre-lockout. I know he has leverage, but the market needs to cool their shorts.
No because I don't want to fight about it. No I didn't ready any of what you posted. I have 4 or 5 instances of a "pipeline" on teams right off the top of my head in the last 5 years in the NHL. The most obvious are Boston, LA, and Vancouver.
You must have a young goal tender in your system, at all times, that is ready to take the reigns and you must not overspend on your goal tending.
I've rarely seen an overpaid goal tender work out for teams. Just this season Quick had a down year. Luckily he recovered in the playoffs, well until Chicago got a hold of him. However that 5.8 cap hit is going to decrease their ability to improve the team. Long term it might have been better to trade Quick and run with Bernier. He has a better regular season than quick.
Bob has a decent year, but we have to go with him because what is after him, in our system, is either isn't close to being ready or a disaster. We need to continue to add goal tending every year and we need a young, solid, backup and another in the AHL at all times. If your prospects fail, draft more/trade for more, sign more, and make sure you bring on veteran stopgaps to protect yourself.
That's my opinion and I can't say that your history lessons are going to change that.
If I'm paying 6 million for a goal tender, it better be a generational talent and not some hack like Price.
Really don't want to go over 4, but 4.5 is about the max. Personally I think this should be around 3 to 3.5 per over two years. If it's a 4 year, give him 4.5 to 5 in the final year.
I would end every single discussion with the agent, immediately, if he attempts to use the KHL as leverage. We can't compete with the KHL, so there is no point in discussing it. If this continues to go south, trade him. Perhaps do a 2 year 11 million and ship him off. If they are doing this now, they will continue to in the future and we could end up with a 7+ million goalie.
If someone off sheets him a big contract, I would look at the term to decide if I match or take the picks. By big, I mean more than like 5 per year or more.
I think you're light by around 1M/per. But understand your argument.
JK has pretty much dismissed the KHL threat. If I remember correctly he has said (paraphrase) they have different rules over there we can't use them to compare (paraphrase).
Agree on the offer sheet, say you'll match but know there is a tipping point where you take the picks and run. There are enough options in the goalie market at the moment. While it would hurt, don't think it's fatal, Vezina or not.
Worse comes to worse there's arbitration.
Light because of market or light because you think he deserves more? I'm proposing that JK end the goal insanity. At least for the Jackets. We are in a position where we are looking to pay for the sins of others.
4 months of Vezina performance over the course of 3 season isn't justification for this type of money.
Light because of Market. I have previously posted 2yrs 11M or 4yrs 18M. I think that slots him right about where he ought to be.
http://capgeek.com/leaders/?season=2013&type=SALARY&position=G&limit=25
And I don't think JK can single-handedly end the insanity, market is what the market is. It has nothing to do with the Vezina, while it came at a nice time for Bob, I simply looking at the salary slot vs performance of those around it.
Mayor Bee
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- Dec 29, 2008
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Thank you for clearing some of that up.
I maintain that, because of the logistics of goaltending, simply having a ready young guy is something that's better in theory than in practice. A backup goalie gets more action than a backup quarterback, but less than any member of a pitching rotation. He's only going to get extended action in the event of the starter either being injured or completely melting down, and even then he's on a short leash. A starter might be given three or four poor games in a row before the backup gets two or three consecutive starts, and as soon as he has a bad one, he's back on the bench.
The problem most teams have is actually in identifying whether the backup is ready. And this directly affects the player's trade value, because there's not much leverage. Jonathan Quick has enormous trade value, and Jonathan Bernier (who may be just as good) does not. Cory Schneider and Roberto Luongo most likely have wildly varying trade value, which is based partially on contract and age and partially on the fact that Schneider is still relatively unproven (at age 27). Look at Sergei Bobrovsky, who went from a rookie starter in Philadelphia one year to being moved for a 2nd and two 4ths the next; it was a very baseball type of move, where the guy with the big contract was pushed to the front at the expense of the younger guy.
Yes, teams must always have young goalies ready to the greatest extent possible. But I think there's more idealism than practicality in the peripheral benefits (like value in the trade market).
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