Speculation: Armchair GM Thread - Looking to the offseason

[Predsanddead24]

I'm not saying Poile has no expectations for this roster. I'm saying his expectations MAY not be as high as they were for that roster.

Laviolette's only ideas were, "more jam" and "more shots".

As far as Hynes having answers or not, it seems that he at least has ideas and is trying to implement changes. Are his ideas good or right and is he capable of getting the group to make the adjustments? I think he says the right things and seems to be trying the right things but whether he can get the players to adjust I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

That may be a fair point about Poile's expectations, but is this roster really appreciably worse than what we had in 19-20?

Regarding making adjustments if we're massively simplifying things you can say that Hynes's only ideas are "having a higher compete level" and "playing the game the right way". Lavi's downfall was the powerplay and he did bring in Lambert to fix it and even though we tried a lot of adjustments nothing ever worked.

 

[nine_inch_fang]

That may be a fair point about Poile's expectations, but is this roster really appreciably worse than what we had in 19-20?

Regarding making adjustments if we're massively simplifying things you can say that Hynes's only ideas are "having a higher compete level" and "playing the game the right way". Lavi's downfall was the powerplay and he did bring in Lambert to fix it and even though we tried a lot of adjustments nothing ever worked.

Hynes and the players have been talking about working on creating better breakouts that create more offense. Sure there are simple platitudes that he uses about playing the right way but I think it's clear they are at least TRYING to coach the team which never happened with Lavi.

 

[Predsanddead24]

Hynes and the players have been talking about working on creating better breakouts that create more offense. Sure there are simple platitudes that he uses about playing the right way but I think it's clear they are at least TRYING to coach the team which never happened with Lavi.

You think Lavi never tried to coach the team? If that's true then he has a damn good resume for a guy who just yells "Jam" at guys and tells them to go play. Maybe Hynes should try that instead of coaching then because it seems to be way more successful.

 

[Armourboy]

Hynes has been trying to fix the same problems since he got here. We've seen roughly the same hockey since the midpoint of last season and if anything bringing in the type of players he wanted made things worse not better. The only thing that has made this team look any better is once again having some young guys come up and get things going. Taylor should be the coach not Hynes.

 

[Bringer of Jollity]

You think Lavi never tried to coach the team? If that's true then he has a damn good resume for a guy who just yells "Jam" at guys and tells them to go play. Maybe Hynes should try that instead of coaching then because it seems to be way more successful.

Lavi is more a mentality guy than an Xs/Os one. There were definitely some parts of his system that were intentional--up-tempo, quick transitions, frequently activating defensemen, and a high volume of shots from all angles (attempting to create rebounds or get the opposing team scrambling in their zone to create openings). The results of his system were evident in the first season or so.

Once teams started to catch on to this, though, he had no ability to adjust what he wanted to do (again, he's not a tactical coach)--opposing teams simply let us take the shots from everywhere and by maintaining solid positioning gave no openings for us to exploit, we were easy to counterattack on because our d-men would get caught up the ice, etc...

 

[nine_inch_fang]

You think Lavi never tried to coach the team? If that's true then he has a damn good resume for a guy who just yells "Jam" at guys and tells them to go play. Maybe Hynes should try that instead of coaching then because it seems to be way more successful.

Obviously, that's not what I'm saying. He and McCarthy do have an expectation of how the game should be played and they do have a knack for super charging a well coached team to be able to score goals but once things start going south he also has a horrible track record of failure.

Sell out for offense and man on man defense aren't hard to coach but there also isn't a structure to fall back on when you can't out score the other team.

The PP and defense fell apart after Housley left for Buffalo. He was able to keep things structured to some extent without stifling the offensive instincts but his replacements and ultimately Laviolette couldn't figure it out how to adjust their systems.

Triggrman and I have discussed how there are obvious changes in the defensive structure that have been made this season and the goals against have gone down since that adjustment. Sure there is a bit of a chicken or the egg type question because Saros has started playing better around the same time but both thing can happen at the same time independently while being mutually beneficial.

Now we're hearing about and watching adjustments to the breakouts and transitions. Better breakouts will not only help the offense but will cut down on odd man rushes coming back a the goalies after Nzone turnovers.

All of these things are fixable and need to get fixed to have success. Whether Hynes and his staff can get these players there is the question at hand.

 

[Kat Predator]

Lavi has openly said his "philosophy" is to outscore the opponent.

That's not wrong if you can do it. Giving up 3 goals instead of 2 isn't a big deal if your scoring jumps from 2 goals to 5. It looks really bad and gets you fired though when you give up 3 goals and score 0 in most games.

The odd thing is that he and McCarthy just put together feeble powerplay units. If the plan is to outscore everyone (see e.g. the Oilers), it is only common sense to have a turbocharged lethal league leading PP. Just blowing the PP off and instead putting all the chips on long bomb passes to forwards flying the zone is, well, batty.

 

[Enoch]

Hey, like, I get the revisionist history people here, but we darn near won a Stanley Cup with Lavi. We definitely won the President's trophy, the division, and multiple playoff series. Heck, we swept the Blackhawks.

Those comparing the two and giving the edge to Hynes are ignoring the only thing that matters: Actual success, actual playoff wins, actual results.

Lavi was flawed, but he took a mediocre team to the finals, almost won with every center on the roster injured. Hynes can't stop himself from running over his young players time and time again. Heck, he did it with Forsberg, RyJo, and Duchene for an entire season until they literally were the only players who could score with 3rd/4th line minutes in the playoffs.

This is easily one of the worst decisions Poile has made. He continues to make it by giving this guy more and more voice in the organization.

 

[nine_inch_fang]

Hey, like, I get the revisionist history people here, but we darn near won a Stanley Cup with Lavi. We definitely won the President's trophy, the division, and multiple playoff series. Heck, we swept the Blackhawks.

Those comparing the two and giving the edge to Hynes are ignoring the only thing that matters: Actual success, actual playoff wins, actual results.

Lavi was flawed, but he took a mediocre team to the finals, almost won with every center on the roster injured. Hynes can't stop himself from running over his young players time and time again. Heck, he did it with Forsberg, RyJo, and Duchene for an entire season until they literally were the only players who could score with 3rd/4th line minutes in the playoffs.

This is easily one of the worst decisions Poile has made. He continues to make it by giving this guy more and more voice in the organization.

Nobody needs to revise Laviolette's history. He can get results out of teams early in his tenure and still fail to sustain that success, thise things aren't mutually exclusive. I'll let you argue with yourself why that's the case.

 

[Scoresberg]

Player Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick

Someone posted a comparison of ekholm and chychrun on the main board thread ekholm available thread. Is it just me or is this favorable to ekholm?

It's really favorable to Ekholm, actually. The only thing Chychrun has going for him in that sheet is actual goals for, which is affected by the two times smaller sample size in games played by Chychrun compared to Ekholm.

 

[Armourboy]

Nobody needs to revise Laviolette's history. He can get results out of teams early in his tenure and still fail to sustain that success, thise things aren't mutually exclusive. I'll let you argue with yourself why that's the case.

At least he gets success somewhere, Hynes never gets it at all

 

[triggrman]

At least he gets success somewhere, Hynes never gets it at all

There's no doubt that Lavy can win more games and is a more successful coach. Hynes is more systematic though, like Trotz, I just don't understand the system.

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

It's really favorable to Ekholm, actually. The only thing Chychrun has going for him in that sheet is actual goals for, which is affected by the two times smaller sample size in games played by Chychrun compared to Ekholm.

Chychrun has had some points since coming back, but I always wondered why he seems to be such a hot commodity. He's injured a lot. Still, as a 24-year old defenseman, one wonders why Arizona would trade players like that. Do they not EVER want to just start playing a core group of players and building something?

 

[drwpreds]

Hey, like, I get the revisionist history people here, but we darn near won a Stanley Cup with Lavi. We definitely won the President's trophy, the division, and multiple playoff series. Heck, we swept the Blackhawks.

Those comparing the two and giving the edge to Hynes are ignoring the only thing that matters: Actual success, actual playoff wins, actual results.

Lavi was flawed, but he took a mediocre team to the finals, almost won with every center on the roster injured. Hynes can't stop himself from running over his young players time and time again. Heck, he did it with Forsberg, RyJo, and Duchene for an entire season until they literally were the only players who could score with 3rd/4th line minutes in the playoffs.

This is easily one of the worst decisions Poile has made. He continues to make it by giving this guy more and more voice in the organization.

I've posted about this many times, but it never ceases to amaze me that just about any time Laviolette is brought up it is almost always nothing but negativity as if the guy is a horrible coach.

Here are his 5 full seasons here:
104 points. 2nd in division. Lost in round 1
96 points. 4th in division. Lost in round 2
94 points. 4th in division. Lost in SCF
117 points. President's trophy. Won division. Lost in round 2
100 points. Won division. Lost in round 1

The best 5 year run we have ever had. I don't know about anyone else and maybe I am just nuts, but give me any coach who can even come close to that for the next 5 years and I will gladly take it. I don't care if he can't sustain it longer than that. Just give me that 5 years of success and I will happily take it and look for another coach in year 6.

 

[Predsanddead24]

I've posted about this many times, but it never ceases to amaze me that just about any time Laviolette is brought up it is almost always nothing but negativity as if the guy is a horrible coach.

Here are his 5 full seasons here:
104 points. 2nd in division. Lost in round 1
96 points. 4th in division. Lost in round 2
94 points. 4th in division. Lost in SCF
117 points. President's trophy. Won division. Lost in round 2
100 points. Won division. Lost in round 1

The best 5 year run we have ever had. I don't know about anyone else and maybe I am just nuts, but give me any coach who can even come close to that for the next 5 years and I will gladly take it. I don't care if he can't sustain it longer than that. Just give me that 5 years of success and I will happily take it and look for another coach in year 6.

Hell you can remove the Stanley Cup Run season from his resume and that would still be better than any stretch we've ever had. He's been successful everywhere he goes yet somehow the narrative is that he just takes over well coached teams and lets them loose and that he himself can't actually coach.

Anyways I didn't intend to this to turn into a rehashing of Lavi's time here I really just wanted to point out that it's remarkable that Hynes is doing as bad or worse than what got Hynes fired yet it seems like he isn't even really on the hot seat. Maybe its Poile just keeping things close to the vest though or not wanting to make a midseason hire again.

 

[nine_inch_fang]

Lord, as usual, trying to have a rational conversation just goes to the extremes.

Laviolette came here and got great results out of an up and coming team and was more successful than any time in team history. As the team started to regress and there didn't seem to be any solutions coming from the coaching staff Poile pushed him to make changes to his staff that he was unwilling to make, at that point he was let go.

That situation is different from the make up of the team when Hynes entered the organization and the progress to this point so comparing the two isn't realistic. Poile is patient and clearly still feels they are in building mode and haven't gotten through the "competitive rebuild" just yet.

Trying to point out differences in the two situations doesn't have to be distilled into 'Lavi is a horrible coach and Hynes is great' type conversation. Or at least it shouldn't.

 

[Predsanddead24]

Lord, as usual, trying to have a rational conversation just goes to the extremes.

Laviolette came here and got great results out of an up and coming team and was more successful than any time in team history. As the team started to regress and there didn't seem to be any solutions coming from the coaching staff Poile pushed him to make changes to his staff that he was unwilling to make, at that point he was let go.

That situation is different from the make up of the team when Hynes entered the organization and the progress to this point so comparing the two isn't realistic. Poile is patient and clearly still feels they are in building mode and haven't gotten through the "competitive rebuild" just yet.

Trying to point out differences in the two situations doesn't have to be distilled into 'Lavi is a horrible coach and Hynes is great' type conversation. Or at least it shouldn't.

Dude you literally said " but I think it's clear they are at least TRYING to coach the team which never happened with Lavi." so don't try and lecture us about having a rational conversation without going to the extremes.

 

[drwpreds]

Lord, as usual, trying to have a rational conversation just goes to the extremes.

Laviolette came here and got great results out of an up and coming team and was more successful than any time in team history. As the team started to regress and there didn't seem to be any solutions coming from the coaching staff Poile pushed him to make changes to his staff that he was unwilling to make, at that point he was let go.

That situation is different from the make up of the team when Hynes entered the organization and the progress to this point so comparing the two isn't realistic. Poile is patient and clearly still feels they are in building mode and haven't gotten through the "competitive rebuild" just yet.

Trying to point out differences in the two situations doesn't have to be distilled into 'Lavi is a horrible coach and Hynes is great' type conversation. Or at least it shouldn't.

Just for the record, my post was not directed at you or any one person in particular.

But not to beat a dead horse, as there is no reason to rehash this again- you are still in this post minimizing Laviolette's tenure/contritbution

"Came in and got great results out of an up and coming team"- well, all I know is that up and coming team is one that many, many Preds fans were wanting blown up late in the season in the SC run year. Very few people would have described us as "up and coming" in the second half of the SCF season.

 

[Enoch]

Nobody needs to revise Laviolette's history. He can get results out of teams early in his tenure and still fail to sustain that success, thise things aren't mutually exclusive. I'll let you argue with yourself why that's the case.

I'm not. I just don't favorably compare the two as it is not even remotely close in terms of success.

You are not wrong on Lavi's downward trend as he continues to coach, but he also almost hit the pinnacle of success while here.

 

[Armourboy]

I think Hynes would get more leeway if anyone really understood what he was trying to do, and that appears to include the players.

Like has been said several times, Poile went out and he kept the type of players he wanted and at the end of the day almost all of them have been kicked back to the AHL in favor of other players. The only good one has been Nino, which Josi convinced to come here.

I'll also add what Tolvanen does will be a mark on Hynes as well. If he continues to score on that right side Hynes is going to look just down right foolish.

 

[ILikeItILoveIt]

We won under Lavi. We haven't won under Hynes. Winning is the ultimate measurement.

Entertainment-wise, Lavi's team were fun to watch. Hynes teams are not.

Lavi's won a Cup. Hynes has not.

The wear-out-your-welcome or he-loses-the-room narrative used when we fired Lavi made the assumption the next coach would achieve better results. He as not.

If we could turn back time, I would not have fired Lavi and hired Hynes. Would have stuck with Lavi, and then only fire him to hire someone specific who was better than Lavi.

While time is still turned back, I also would not have:
Traded Fiala
Signed Turris
Traded Girard
Traded our #1 pick during any of the deadline deals in our history
Suspended Rads for being late in Phoenix in 2012
Passed on resigning Rads post-2012
Retained Suter unless he signed an extension
Traded Kevin Klein
Traded Tolvy
Traded Arvy

 

[triggrman]

Dude you literally said " but I think it's clear they are at least TRYING to coach the team which never happened with Lavi." so don't try and lecture us about having a rational conversation without going to the extremes.

In fairness, if coaching is installing his systems and matching lines then I'd agree, Lavi didn't try to install a system, he hasn't anywhere he's been. He rolled lines, he didn't match them, his breakouts were are based on speed of decisions not systems or positions. He is more of a manager than a coach.

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

Hynes just seems like he might be an "exhausting" kind of guy to be around, let alone to work for. Even from his day 1 plan of meeting and spending time with every player to get to know them, and his focus on "identity" and being "mentally strong", and the way he talks. Those kinds of guys who got there by working harder than everybody else, and who think that everybody else can and should live up to that standard... they're not always the best fit for every situation. We probably have a few highly talented players in our leadership core who are not necessarily like that. Sometimes guys want to relax a little bit and let steam off or have a little time to themselves. Some succeed partly on natural talent as opposed to limitless energy and unwavering work ethic.

I got the impression Lavi might scream on the bench and kick over a garbage can in the room, but he's going to the bar with that henchman of his once they all clear out. That his doghouse at least had an exit door on it. That he understood there are ditch diggers and artists both on his team. That everybody has their own identity.

I mean, when this time comes, as it always eventually does, when a fanbase starts to talk more collectively about firing coaches, we're always crippled by not truly knowing what's going on, what they're trying or saying or doing in practices or what everybody's roles and relationships look like. We just know what we see on the ice isn't working. And then fill in all the rest with guesswork. So there's another piece of guesswork.

 

[drwpreds]

Hynes just seems like he might be an "exhausting" kind of guy to be around, let alone to work for.

Fair or not, that is exactly the impression I get with Hynes.......

 

[GoldOnGold]

We won under Lavi. We haven't won under Hynes. Winning is the ultimate measurement.

Entertainment-wise, Lavi's team were fun to watch. Hynes teams are not.

Lavi's won a Cup. Hynes has not.

The wear-out-your-welcome or he-loses-the-room narrative used when we fired Lavi made the assumption the next coach would achieve better results. He as not.

If we could turn back time, I would not have fired Lavi and hired Hynes. Would have stuck with Lavi, and then only fire him to hire someone specific who was better than Lavi.

While time is still turned back, I also would not have:
Traded Fiala
Signed Turris
Traded Girard
Traded our #1 pick during any of the deadline deals in our history
Suspended Rads for being late in Phoenix in 2012
Passed on resigning Rads post-2012
Retained Suter unless he signed an extension
Traded Kevin Klein
Traded Tolvy
Traded Arvy

I've got some bad news - we actually didn't trade Tolvy.