Are you feeling more or less optimistic about the leafs future since Dubas took over?

[shortfuze]

Not without Leafs retaining IMO. Nobody values Marner at 11 AAV in the league especially since he doesn't have the history of producing such numbers without elite centers playing with him.

Only saving grace could be that some cheapskate team is willing to pay the "real dollars" to marner after the signing bonuses are paid off not caring about the cap hit and want to reach the cap floor. Besides Ottawa and Arizona I don't see any team doing it.

How do you know they don’t value Marner at 11 million?

 

[Dekes For Days]

That's not true.

Of course it's true. Lou was signing veteran cap anchors, chasing high-value UFAs, keeping valuable pending UFAs, and trading for rentals at the deadline. Those are all things done within a "win now" mode, not during a rebuild.

 

[ottomaddox]

You're delusional if you think that Marner doesn't get picked if he was exposed. I'm sorry, but it's that simple.

Price's two playoff performances don't negate the fact that he's clearly on a decline and the fact that Montreal needed to shell out actual cap space for a 1B to just make the playoffs last year. Seattle isn't just going to assume that he's going to keep up these magical playoff runs for years to come and just deal with the fact that he was a .901 in the regular season.

That's not the same as one of the league's best playmakers with two bad playoff performances.

I'm not really here to contribute to a dichotomy debate. I'm not saying "Marner is a bum." I am however saying that his contract is not ideal. Same with Tavares and Kerfoot.

Marner not being exposed means nothing.

His contract is not ideal.

 

[ToneDog]

I'm not really here to contribute to a dichotomy debate. I'm not saying "Marner is a bum." I am however saying that his contract is not ideal. Same with Tavares and Kerfoot.

Marner not being exposed means nothing.

His contract is not ideal.

Marner would have been picked up in a heartbeat. He is owed 24+m over the next 4 years and Francis has plenty of cap space. They aren't making the playoffs so Marner playoff no-shows and puck over the glass penalties won't matter.

 

[Trapper]

That's not true.

The narrative changes to match the situation.
Win the North and we’re ready to take out Tampa and are Cup contenders.

Lose in the 1st round and oh, we’re not ready yet, just need to learn some killer instinct.

How many posters here would laugh their ***** off if Montreal had 3 11 million dollar players and couldn’t win a round. Not just one time but repeatedly? If you answer yes then what are you defending here?

Expected goals, expected wins but what really is ignored is how about just plain ol’ expectations.

 

[koyvoo]

Nope.

Ya, those signings under Lou were more -insulate the youth with veteran leadership- more than opening the window, even if the leadership Lou choose was bad, and that rubbed off on our two gutless fakers, possibly.

But you’re arguing with guys who if Dubas traded away a 1st rounder for a 2nd rounder straight up, would go the ends of the earth to convince you it was great trade.

 

[egd27]

Ya, those signings under Lou were more -insulate the youth with veteran leadership- more than opening the window, even if the leadership Lou choose was bad, and that rubbed off on our two gutless fakers, possibly.

But you’re arguing with guys who if Dubas traded away a 1st rounder for a 2nd rounder straight up, would go the ends of the earth to convince you it was great trade.

Correct on both counts.

Apparently adding one deadline vet to a team icing 8(?) rookies is "win now" mode for Dubites.

 

[PromisedLand]

Highlights since Dubas took over

• did not even make playoffs after losing the playins against CBJ
• blowing a 3-1 series lead against montreal
• Zamboni driver
• CN tower lit in montreal colours
• No picks/prospects in the system
• Bleak future
• Tavares' prime years wasted
• massive overpayments; always under cap crunch
• no quality depth
• UFAs walking left, right and center
• traded 1st and 4th for injured foligno, and picks for rittich, hutton, riley nash all wasted
• players taking no accountability after montreal loss

I am sure there are others.

Tell me how can one be optimistic about Leafs' future

 

[hamzarocks]

Highlights since Dubas took over

• did not even make playoffs after losing the playins against CBJ
• blowing a 3-1 series lead against montreal
• Zamboni driver
• CN tower lit in montreal colours
• No picks/prospects in the system
• Bleak future
• Tavares' prime years wasted
• massive overpayments; always under cap crunch
• no quality depth
• UFAs walking left, right and center
• traded 1st and 4th for injured foligno, and picks for rittich, hutton, riley nash all wasted
• players taking no accountability after montreal loss

I am sure there are others.

Tell me how can one be optimistic about Leafs' future

Next year leafs either pull things together and the vision that Shanny/Dubas/Keefe have works and we make a deep run, which hopefully ends with a parade in July or we have our 6th failure which ends the Shanny/Dubas/Keefe era, we bring in new management who moves out the core and initiates a major retool or even rebuild

Either option is something to be optimistic towards. This core either delivers on their promised potential or they are broken up and we try to build again with a proper management team.

I've stopped caring about almost all of the players on the team at this point so anyone being moved out won't sting like it would have from 2015-2019. Leaf fans should be in a no lose situation. We either win or we blow things up and accept the failed Shannaplan for what it was.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Highlights since Dubas took over

• did not even make playoffs after losing the playins against CBJ
• blowing a 3-1 series lead against montreal
• Zamboni driver
• CN tower lit in montreal colours
• No picks/prospects in the system
• Bleak future
• Tavares' prime years wasted
• massive overpayments; always under cap crunch
• no quality depth
• UFAs walking left, right and center
• traded 1st and 4th for injured foligno, and picks for rittich, hutton, riley nash all wasted
• players taking no accountability after montreal loss

I am sure there are others.

Tell me how can one be optimistic about Leafs' future

Some additional minor (yet still significant) ones.

• Blowing a 3-2 series lead against Boston
• No show on Tavares first game back on the Island
• No show on Kaskisuo's first nhl game
• Captain Underpants situation
• Leaf players don't (or rarely) protect each other
• Losing two games in a row to covid ravished Vancouver team
• Dubas voted by agents as biggest push-over

Can this all be blamed on Dubas? I think so. There's a clear "culture" problem. An inability to finish teams off. An inability to show up for emotionally important games. A country club "no consequences" attitude from core players.

 

[Gallagbi]

Correct on both counts.

Apparently adding one deadline vet to a team icing 8(?) rookies is "win now" mode for Dubites.

Felt like the first year was a "reward" for a young team. Signing Marleau that off-season to a boat anchor contract, acquiring Pleks at the TDL and keeping our own high value rentals seemed to be the end of any "classic" rebuild and a team trying to win now.

But you could also argue any true rebuild and patient approach ended the second we won the lottery and Lou pitched Stamkos.

 

[Racer88]

Next year leafs either pull things together and the vision that Shanny/Dubas/Keefe have works and we make a deep run, which hopefully ends with a parade in July or we have our 6th failure which ends the Shanny/Dubas/Keefe era, we bring in new management who moves out the core and initiates a major retool or even rebuild

Either option is something to be optimistic towards. This core either delivers on their promised potential or they are broken up and we try to build again with a proper management team.

I've stopped caring about almost all of the players on the team at this point so anyone being moved out won't sting like it would have from 2015-2019. Leaf fans should be in a no lose situation. We either win or we blow things up and accept the failed Shannaplan for what it was.

You have made some good points but my only concern is that even if they fail this year Shanny and Dubas don’t get fired

 

[Racer88]

Some additional minor (yet still significant) ones.

• Blowing a 3-2 series lead against Boston
• No show on Tavares first game back on the Island
• No show on Kaskisuo's first nhl game
• Captain Underpants situation
• Leaf players don't (or rarely) protect each other
• Losing two games in a row to covid ravished Vancouver team
• Dubas voted by agents as biggest push-over

Can this all be blamed on Dubas? I think so. There's a clear "culture" problem. An inability to finish teams off. An inability to show up for emotionally important games. A country club "no consequences" attitude from core players.

And people still defend Dubas……..unbelievable

 

[Dekes For Days]

Apparently adding one deadline vet to a team icing 8(?) rookies is "win now" mode for Dubites.

No, quite obviously, signing multiple UFA veterans, chasing high-value UFAs, keeping multiple valuable pending UFAs, and trading for multiple rentals at the deadline are representative of a "win now" mode, not a rebuild.

 

[hamzarocks]

You have made some good points but my only concern is that even if they fail this year Shanny and Dubas don’t get fired

I can't see that happening. Dubas was clear when he said this was the do-or-die year for him. He knows this, and I respect him enough for acknowledging the fact. Honestly, had he made a move this summer and moved Marner or Nylander it would have probably bought him more time and taken the pressure off the hot seat for him. He's sticking to his guts, which if it works on the 4th try will make him look very strong and fans will praise him. If it fails for a 4th time then his times up, which will lead to Keefe and Shanahan also being on the outs.

MLSE I don't see being lenient enough to give Dubas another shot at the can if he fails in year 4, making over 50% of the JT contract pointless and a waste. We will have a clear-cut outcome once the playoffs are finished next year for management and the team.

 

[Racer88]

I can't see that happening. Dubas was clear when he said this was the do-or-die year for him. He knows this, and I respect him enough for acknowledging the fact. Honestly, had he made a move this summer and moved Marner or Nylander it would have probably bought him more time and taken the pressure off the hot seat for him. He's sticking to his guts, which if it works on the 4th try will make him look very strong and fans will praise him. If it fails for a 4th time then his times up, which will lead to Keefe and Shanahan also being on the outs.

MLSE I don't see being lenient enough to give Dubas another shot at the can if he fails in year 4, making over 50% of the JT contract pointless and a waste. We will have a clear-cut outcome once the playoffs are finished next year for management and the team.

I sure hope so

 

[Trapper]

Some additional minor (yet still significant) ones.

• Blowing a 3-2 series lead against Boston
• No show on Tavares first game back on the Island
• No show on Kaskisuo's first nhl game
• Captain Underpants situation
• Leaf players don't (or rarely) protect each other
• Losing two games in a row to covid ravished Vancouver team
• Dubas voted by agents as biggest push-over

Can this all be blamed on Dubas? I think so. There's a clear "culture" problem. An inability to finish teams off. An inability to show up for emotionally important games. A country club "no consequences" attitude from core players.

Don’t worry about who to trade. I’d let the players decide that.

First thing you do is sit down with the 4, Rielly and Muzzin and watch the playoffs. Boston,Tampa,NY, etc.

We are going to learn how to get the puck in deep, we will forecheck, if the game opens up by all means skill away, if it’s closed down we are going to learn how to grind out goals, win board battles and do this all starting on time in the playoffs.

If you don’t want to, congratulations, you’ve just been traded.
And that is culture.

 

[RoadWarrior]

Posted this in another thread.

Atlantic Division:

• Boston signs Hall for cheap and still has plenty of capspace
• Florida is trading for Reinhart; that organization under Coach Q is going to be solid
• Montreal will have plenty of capsape to bolster their roster with prospects/picks and the SCF trip AND Weber going on LTIR
• Tampa is Tampa even will selling they will have a solid roster with a 1C (point), 1D (Hedman), 1G (Vasy) with premium wingers (Stamkos, Kucherov)
• Ottawa is a team on the upswing

Sabres are the only one that suck.

And the Leafs can't do F all because not a lot of cap space; no prospects/picks, no playoff success to show and next season looking like a wash

It sometimes really ticks me off that people have started blaming the players while completely absolving dubas; its not like dubas was the one that created the cap crunch; its not like dubas is the one that let the ufas keep walking and then traded the farm and overestimated this team's ability to do things in the playoffs. Its not like dubas is the one who orchestrated the cap structure such that quality depth cannot be had since his high AAV guys cannot carry a dud and make that dud productive to compensate for not having quality depth.

someone explain to me how is it that dubas fans always find a way to absolve him of everything? is this a Toronto Maple Leafs forum or the Kyle Dubas forum? I mean seriously!

The leafs have $9M in cap space with 17 roster players under contract so they can do plenty. They need to add a couple of wingers - including a first liner- and maybe 1 right shot D in free agency. They also need a backup goaltender.

The only reason why they didn't add a big name is because of their resistance to trade Marner and his massive contract for somebody who actually contributes in the playoffs. This is the definition of insanity. Dubas belief in the "core 4" at this point has reached a level of religious devotion divorced from the basic facts.

 

[RoadWarrior]

Don’t worry about who to trade. I’d let the players decide that.

First thing you do is sit down with the 4, Rielly and Muzzin and watch the playoffs. Boston,Tampa,NY, etc.

We are going to learn how to get the puck in deep, we will forecheck, if the game opens up by all means skill away, if it’s closed down we are going to learn how to grind out goals, win board battles and do this all starting on time in the playoffs.

If you don’t want to, congratulations, you’ve just been traded.
And that is culture.

I don't sense that this management group is big on accountability.

 

[The CyNick]

Highlights since Dubas took over

• did not even make playoffs after losing the playins against CBJ
• blowing a 3-1 series lead against montreal
• Zamboni driver
• CN tower lit in montreal colours
• No picks/prospects in the system
• Bleak future
• Tavares' prime years wasted
• massive overpayments; always under cap crunch
• no quality depth
• UFAs walking left, right and center
• traded 1st and 4th for injured foligno, and picks for rittich, hutton, riley nash all wasted
• players taking no accountability after montreal loss

I am sure there are others.

Tell me how can one be optimistic about Leafs' future

I have been a Leafs fan for many decades and if I were come up with the top ten worst memories of my time watching the team, a good number of them have come under the Dubas regime.

For comparison, none came under Lou.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

I can't see that happening. Dubas was clear when he said this was the do-or-die year for him. He knows this, and I respect him enough for acknowledging the fact. Honestly, had he made a move this summer and moved Marner or Nylander it would have probably bought him more time and taken the pressure off the hot seat for him. He's sticking to his guts, which if it works on the 4th try will make him look very strong and fans will praise him. If it fails for a 4th time then his times up, which will lead to Keefe and Shanahan also being on the outs.

MLSE I don't see being lenient enough to give Dubas another shot at the can if he fails in year 4, making over 50% of the JT contract pointless and a waste. We will have a clear-cut outcome once the playoffs are finished next year for management and the team.

And the 4 core collectively are getting worse now, not better.

The vast majority of forwards are well into their primes by 24/25 (I don't care about the rare exceptions people will reply with). So Nylander/Matthews/Marner likely aren't getting any better. I'm not saying they'll decline soon. But they've likely plateaued.

Tavares will be 31 when the season starts. The vast majority of players have already started to decline by then (I don't care about the rare exceptions people will reply with).

So as a collective 4, they're getting worse season to season. Not better.

 

[The CyNick]

And the 4 core collectively are getting worse now, not better.

The vast majority of forwards are well into their primes by 24/25 (I don't care about the rare exceptions people will reply with). So Nylander/Matthews/Marner likely aren't getting any better. I'm not saying they'll decline soon. But they've likely plateaued.

Tavares will be 31 when the season starts. The vast majority of players have already started to decline by then (I don't care about the rare exceptions people will reply with).

So as a collective 4, they're getting worse season to season. Not better.

Tavares will be very interesting to watch. The same people saying Hyman at 29 shouldn't be signed to an 8 year deal are the same ones saying Tavares will one day live up to his $11M salary even though he 31. I think his best years are behind him, but let's see.

 

[Mess]

I don't sense that this management group is big on accountability.

Hopefully its ownership that eventually looks for that accountability and do so based on the results.

 

[All Mod Cons]

Ya, those signings under Lou were more -insulate the youth with veteran leadership- more than opening the window, even if the leadership Lou choose was bad, and that rubbed off on our two gutless fakers, possibly.

But you’re arguing with guys who if Dubas traded away a 1st rounder for a 2nd rounder straight up, would go the ends of the earth to convince you it was great trade.

This

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Tavares will be very interesting to watch. The same people saying Hyman at 29 shouldn't be signed to an 8 year deal are the same ones saying Tavares will one day live up to his $11M salary even though he 31. I think his best years are behind him, but let's see.

To be fair, the argument for Hyman is based on his recent injuries, surgeries, and playstyle. Tavares had missed like 5 games the previous 4 seasons before he became ufa and has a "net-front presence" playstyle we all hoped would largely survive into his 30's.

But yeah, he already looked like he lost a step last season.

And he may be cooked from that injury.