- Nov 12, 2021
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Look at the defenders that will mature In the next 5 years.
You don’t watch u18 hockey, do you ?
Are there still enough gold medal candidates?
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You don’t watch u18 hockey, do you ?
teravaineSAROS
Registered User
- Jul 29, 2015
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We are talking about today, not tomorrow. For your 18 y.o and younger guys to mature they need 5-7 years. And considering that Sweden is the best euro country in producing defensemen honestly what kind of argument is that? Sweden produces World Class defensemen every year.
Svedu
Registered User
- Apr 23, 2019
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Well I´ve seen him in two tournaments and I don't think he's a goaltender I would rely on. Also, if we wanna take a closer look at stats? They were not good in NA nor last years WC.
One mistake here or there can be fine in the group stages and so on, that happens. I'm talking about his overall goaltending, it's just like with Larmi not convincing. Don't worry, I've felt like this with Korpisalo when he got the opportunity with Leijonat as well, and you could consider him a more known and perhaps even better goalie than Vejmelka.
Besides HOF Hasek and the intriguing prospect in Dostal I always felt Cechmanek at his best were underrated and a game winning goalie.
My point is, you have a history of good goaltenders but lately I've been a bit surprised of the semi-low level in these last Skodas. But then again, goaltenders are a bit more tricky to analyze because you always need to consider what they have in front of them.
Defensemen, exactly. Mostly that
novisor
Registered User
Malkin is almost 37, he is aging its a fact. Kuznetsov has some serious off ice issues. This group of centers is just very weak compared to the TOP 4 period.
There is positional weakness, and then there is russian center problem. Lets say, if we look at russian C and swedish Wing issue its not even close, russian problem is way bigger, I would say Sweden has better wingers than Russia has defensemen
Agree for all but wingers US has better ones
Hedman is still number 1 on Lightning, one bad season where he was playing injured doesn't change that. Sergachev isnt a true number 1 d anyway, maybe he will become, but not at the moment, he is not a contender even for nomination for Norris.
Provorov regressed, he is a number 1 d on a bad team.
30gp is a short sample, Orlov is who he is
Zub is not a legit 1/2 pairing d, he is a very average player. Gavrikov is better, good shutdown guy, 2nd pairing.
Russian d is better than finnish based on names
I said since 2012, so 2012 doesn't count.
You also forgot World Cup 2016
2014 was a special case due to Sochi olympics, everybody sent their C squads, Russia sent their A squad, because they needed to save face after Sochi flop, olympics 18 and 22 were without NHL, so Russia naturally had advantage, 16,17,19 Russia had dream teams.
They had very bad roster at 2021. But why are you dishonest? Take a look at other years, they had all the best avaliable players.
Who declined and when? Can you tell, when it happened? Russian players always went to play for NT, unless they were injured or in Stanley Cup playoffs. 2021 was first time in ages that Russia had some declines, probably due to Panarin scandal.
2014- Bobrovsky, Ovechkin, Malkin, Kulemin, Orlov, Belov, Anisimov. No declines
2015-Malkin, Ovechkin, Tarasenko, Bobrovsky, Anisimov, Kulikov No declines aswell
2016-Bobrovsky, Orlov, Yemelin, Datsyuk, Kuznetsov, Ovechkin, Panarin No declines(maybe Markov)
2017-Vasilevsky, Orlov, Provorov, Kucherov, Kuznetsov, Panarin No declines
2018-Everybody was in playoffs except for Radulov and Tarasenko
2019-Vasilevsky, Orlov, Sergachyov, Zaitsev, Zadorov, Dadonov, Kovalchuk, Kucherov, Kuznetsov, Malkin, Ovechkin
And all of that with the fact, that due to financial abilities, Russia kept a lot of star players at home, Kovalchuk, Datsyuk, Shipachyov etc
I have just demonstrated that they hadd all the best players avaliable almost every year except 2021. It is their problems that they have no depth. Vasilevsky was present every time he had a chance. When he was not present they had Bobrovsky.
What kind of argument is this?
2016 played at home and were heavy favorites to win it all in front of the biggest fan, lost to underdog despite having their A team against finnish B squad
MacKinnon was not a big thing back in 2017, Marner was 19, Point was not a big thing aswell.
I remember the game, good game by mediocre russian team
Olympic squad lost to a team with almost zero NHLers, and then Vasilevsky won them bronze
Lost in 1/4 as expected from such team
They have not won best on best since USSR. They didn't even play in finals. Maximum-1/2 loss. There is a reason for that. They had some WC success but it is only because, russians took WC way more seriously than everyone else, and always brought their best players. After 2012 nothing impressive there aswell. 2014 was a special case, olympics(best on best) year
And currently, Russia is number 5 and aging
Caser
Moderator
- May 21, 2013
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Buchnevich looked not too awful at C this season, so with Russia's center deficit I'd say it would make sense to consider him as one.
MeHateHe
Registered User
- Dec 24, 2006
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I added some extra bolding that seems important.
No one is denying (I hope) that Russia can send good teams to the world championships. And as a hockey fan, I would like to have them there losing to Canada on a regular basis. (As someone whose family came to Canada from Mariupol, I am less enthusiastic.)
But all you've posted here is evidence that Russia has had a way of underperforming. When the going gets tough, the big red machine gets going - in the opposite direction.
From 1963 to 1986 only two countries won the Gold Medal at the IIHF world championships, a span of 24 years and 22 world championships during which the USSR won 18 gold medals, Czechoslovakia 4 gold medals and every other country, including notably Canada, Sweden and the USA, none at all.
From 1964 through 1991 only four countries shared the medals at the World Champions-the USSR, Czechoslovakia, Sweden and Canada. Not even the USA or Finland broke into the medals at the World Championships during those years.
Now we have four countries having won in the last decade, nine medalling in the last ten years and ten in the last twelve years.
The fact that it isn't best on best contributes to relative parity, but even at best on best Canada and the USSR used to be so far ahead of everyone else that any other country winning was a huge upset..
As closed as hockey is at the top, it isn't nearly as extreme was it was fifty years ago.
From 1964 through 1991 only four countries shared the medals at the World Champions-the USSR, Czechoslovakia, Sweden and Canada. Not even the USA or Finland broke into the medals at the World Championships during those years.
Now we have four countries having won in the last decade, nine medalling in the last ten years and ten in the last twelve years.
The fact that it isn't best on best contributes to relative parity, but even at best on best Canada and the USSR used to be so far ahead of everyone else that any other country winning was a huge upset..
As closed as hockey is at the top, it isn't nearly as extreme was it was fifty years ago.
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Overall, we have had really big problems in the national team lately with the goalkeeper really supporting us with his performance. In the past, apart from Hašek, we also had Vokoun, who was behind many Czech successes. Something like this hasn't happened in years and the goalkeeper is really our weak point most of the time. Vejmelka had a great first half of the competition in the NHL, and there was even speculation about his transfer to a better team. He did not transfer and since then his performance has gone down a lot. But if you look at his stats, he ended up having really good stats in this championship. This year's problem was mainly elsewhere. An old team, led by a coach who believes in extremely defensive tactics. This is not characteristic of Czech hockey, the nature of their players, and the team simply played extremely poorly. I would also add the injuries of key players Sedlák and Chytil, and the failure was the logical outcome of the given situation.Well I´ve seen him in two tournaments and I don't think he's a goaltender I would rely on. Also, if we wanna take a closer look at stats? They were not good in NA nor last years WC.
One mistake here or there can be fine in the group stages and so on, that happens. I'm talking about his overall goaltending, it's just like with Larmi not convincing. Don't worry, I've felt like this with Korpisalo when he got the opportunity with Leijonat as well, and you could consider him a more known and perhaps even better goalie than Vejmelka.
Besides HOF Hasek and the intriguing prospect in Dostal I always felt Cechmanek at his best were underrated and a game winning goalie.
My point is, you have a history of good goaltenders but lately I've been a bit surprised of the semi-low level in these last Skodas. But then again, goaltenders are a bit more tricky to analyze because you always need to consider what they have in front of them.
Defensemen, exactly. Mostly that
In no universe is Finland's lineup better than Russia's. The only position Finland has the advantage is center.
Goaltending - Russia.
No explanation needed.
Defense - Russia.
Finland is super thin beyond Heiskanen. While Russia lacks a true #1, Finland has nowhere the depth of Sergachev, Orlov, Provorov, etc.
Center - Finland
No explanation needed
Wing - Russia
Finland has nowhere near the top end talent or depth of a Kucherov, Kaprizov, Ovechkin, Svechnikov, Nichushkin, Panarin, Buchnevich, Tarasenko,
Zine
Registered User
- Feb 28, 2002
- 12,497
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Part of Russia's problem is the an over-reliance on top NHLers at the World Championships.
Our stars are critisized mercilessly if they don't play. It's almost a patriotic obligation. I recall Malkin once being asked if he was going to play and he laughed and said something like 'I have to'. This leads to tired players whose hearts aren't into it being on the roster. It leads to disjointed teams.
Worse is when coaches leave several roster spots open for guys who are eliminated from the playoffs, We'll then fly them in and expect them to work miracles fresh off the plane ride.
This rarely turns out well regardless of how talented a player is.
On the contrary, the last 2 tournaments (2018, 2022 olympics) in which our coaches didn't have this 'luxury' we performed very well.... winning Gold and Silver respectively.
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NyQuil
Big F$&*in Q
It's a good thing all of the other teams adopted the same philosophy of not having any NHLers at all at those two tournaments.
Russia just needs all of the other teams to not send any of their best players and their accomplishments speak for themselves.
WarriorofTime
Registered User
- Jul 3, 2010
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Geesh, the hatred of Russian hockey players on this board is something else..
They are "fine", they don't win a lot, which only Canada really seems to do, but could plausibly win and are on the podium a lot when they are there. They hit a bad rut with defenseman for a while but have come out of it. Before getting banned, they were "in the mix" so to speak with the U20s and U18s indicating that they continue to churn enough players to plausibly stay competitive for the foreseeable future. Every year you can watch the Stanley Cup Finals and watch at least one high performing Russian contributor. The national team is a bit of a mess with nepotism and being banned due to geopolitical events, but as a hockey producing nation they seem to keep on keeping on.
They are "fine", they don't win a lot, which only Canada really seems to do, but could plausibly win and are on the podium a lot when they are there. They hit a bad rut with defenseman for a while but have come out of it. Before getting banned, they were "in the mix" so to speak with the U20s and U18s indicating that they continue to churn enough players to plausibly stay competitive for the foreseeable future. Every year you can watch the Stanley Cup Finals and watch at least one high performing Russian contributor. The national team is a bit of a mess with nepotism and being banned due to geopolitical events, but as a hockey producing nation they seem to keep on keeping on.
Eye of Ra
Grandmaster General of the International boards
its not hatred, its fact. russia rarely win golds, they should win more golds with the rosters they have. even sweden have more golds than russia last 15 years. and people call sweden chokers (thats not hate?).
WarriorofTime
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MeHateHe
Registered User
- Dec 24, 2006
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Respectfully, these are excuses.
To misquote Donald Rumsfeld, you go to war with the army you have, not the army you wish you have. Canada has sent a coalition of the willing for several years, sometimes with a few stars and sometimes with a handful of AHLers or Europe-based players, and they've managed to be in the final seven of the past eight years.
If your complaint is that the addition of Evgeni Malkin or other NHL stars makes Russia's team less capable of winning gold against teams filled with non-NHLers and 3rd liners, I'll just be kind and say that's a problem 15 other countries would like to have. If those stars can't put their egos in check and play the same system as everyone else, then that says more about their commitment to the program, and that's nobody else's problem. I'll say it again, the games are played on the ice and the teams who are there have to perform, or they go home without a gold medal.
- Apr 27, 2005
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They've won gold in 25% of the men's WC/OIympics they've played in since 2012, with 3 golds, 2 silvers, and 3 bronzes in their last 12 tournaments.
They fit in just fine with the other top nations in terms of gold medal count over those last 12 tournaments:
Canada 4x golds
Russia 3x golds
Sweden 3x golds
Finland 2x golds
You mean the tournament that Russia didn't play in?And he forgot WC Gold 2022.
What does it matter? Russia is suspended and Finland has knocked out Russia more times in their gold medal wins.
- Apr 27, 2005
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It matters because we are talking about how Russia compares when they compete with the other nations. In the last 12 tournaments they've played, Russia has more medals than any other nation.
WarriorofTime
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- Jul 3, 2010
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It's really amazing how off topic the thread is. My topic was primarily about GOLD MEDALS and not about other medals. This relates to the recent past. The circle of candidates became smaller, partly e.g. because Russia is no longer there. But since Russia is also blocked indefinitely, I'm surprised that it's still an issue. Then the USA is mentioned again and again. Why, they proved they can't. Realistic!
- Apr 27, 2005
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You know that teams that win medals are typically thought of as candidates to win the gold, right?
This isn't complicated. The San Jose sharks were legit cup contenders for years but were never able to win it. It doesn't mean they weren't a cup contender.
Peiskos
Registered User
- Jan 4, 2018
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Ah yes, I meant 2002 and 2003 world junior gold for Russia instead of 2003 and 2004.
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