Are there still enough gold medal candidates?

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Russia has problems with centers and with d, their star group is aging.
Thing with iihf wc is that they always sent their best. Every year you see some swedish or finnish players decline invitations due to being busy with their family, insurance issues, having some minor injuries etc For russians it was never a good reason at least from the middle 2000s.

Their D is fine. with some really solid shut down defenseman in guys like Zub and Gavrikov. Yeah, they are weaker down the middle, butMalkin - Kuznetsov - Barbashev - Namestnikov is still a plenty fine group of centers. And for as weak as they are down the middle, they probably have the best wingers in the world:

Kaprizov - Malkin - Kucherov
Panarin - Kuznetsov - Svechnikov
Buchnevich - Barbashev - Tarasenko
Ovechkin - Namestnikov - Nichushkin
Kuzmenko

Sergachev - Provorov
Orlov - Zub
Gavrikov - Romanov
Zadorov

Shesterkin
Vasilevsky
Sorokin

That team could beat anyone in the world in a single game. Would they beat USA or Canada in a best of 7? Probably not, but they could absolutely win a gold medal in single elimination tournament, especially with that goaltending.

 

[jj cale]

Their D is fine. with some really solid shut down defenseman in guys like Zub and Gavrikov. Yeah, they are weaker down the middle, butMalkin - Kuznetsov - Barbashev - Namestnikov is still a plenty fine group of centers. And for as weak as they are down the middle, they probably have the best wingers in the world:

Kaprizov - Malkin - Kucherov
Panarin - Kuznetsov - Svechnikov
Buchnevich - Barbashev - Tarasenko
Ovechkin - Namestnikov - Nichushkin
Kuzmenko

Sergachev - Provorov
Orlov - Zub
Gavrikov - Romanov
Zadorov

Shesterkin
Vasilevsky
Sorokin

That team could beat anyone in the world in a single game. Would they beat USA or Canada in a best of 7? Probably not, but they could absolutely win a gold medal in single elimination tournament, especially with that goaltending.

Russia is not to be discounted at this time.......................or any time for that matter.

 

[ORRFForever]

I know this is not a popular option but...

I miss Russia in hockey.

 

[jj cale]

I know this is not a popular option but...

I miss Russia in hockey.

Great hockey players.....................miss what they bring to the table.

 

[Old Man Jags]

Sweden is number 2 or 3 based on roster. Ahead of Russia and Finland There is no argument for Czech at all.

Sadly correct. We have Pastrnak but after that there is a big bloody drop-off, both in terms of individual talent and depth. As much as it pains me to say it, if it was best-on-best or Sweden B, C or D team against the corresponding Czech team, in each case the Swedes would be the favourites. That’s just the reality at this point in time.

 

[ORRFForever]

Great hockey players.....................miss what they bring to the table.

Me, too. I also miss the competition - a member of the Big 5.

 

[alko]

Ok, lets look to 50 years in future:

What country has the most potential to grow ice-hockey to the absolute top level?

First that comes is China. More about 1 000 000 000 people and if only 0,01 % , or some region will be from some reason focused to ice-hockey... Why not? There were big plans in the past decade and they hit the reality. But still this is a country, that could change something. Plus, there isnt soccer such popular. Because soccer will be always a break in Europe countries and kids will be always more inclined to play it and not ice-hockey.

50 years is a lot of time. Look to Finland. They won first medal in 1992!

 

[Garl]

Their D is fine. with some really solid shut down defenseman in guys like Zub and Gavrikov. Yeah, they are weaker down the middle, butMalkin - Kuznetsov - Barbashev - Namestnikov is still a plenty fine group of centers. And for as weak as they are down the middle, they probably have the best wingers in the world:

Kaprizov - Malkin - Kucherov
Panarin - Kuznetsov - Svechnikov
Buchnevich - Barbashev - Tarasenko
Ovechkin - Namestnikov - Nichushkin
Kuzmenko

Sergachev - Provorov
Orlov - Zub
Gavrikov - Romanov
Zadorov

Shesterkin
Vasilevsky
Sorokin

That team could beat anyone in the world in a single game. Would they beat USA or Canada in a best of 7? Probably not, but they could absolutely win a gold medal in single elimination tournament, especially with that goaltending.

No number 1 D,

Their D is fine. with some really solid shut down defenseman in guys like Zub and Gavrikov. Yeah, they are weaker down the middle, butMalkin - Kuznetsov - Barbashev - Namestnikov is still a plenty fine group of centers. And for as weak as they are down the middle, they probably have the best wingers in the world:

Kaprizov - Malkin - Kucherov
Panarin - Kuznetsov - Svechnikov
Buchnevich - Barbashev - Tarasenko
Ovechkin - Namestnikov - Nichushkin
Kuzmenko

Sergachev - Provorov
Orlov - Zub
Gavrikov - Romanov
Zadorov

Shesterkin
Vasilevsky
Sorokin

That team could beat anyone in the world in a single game. Would they beat USA or Canada in a best of 7? Probably not, but they could absolutely win a gold medal in single elimination tournament, especially with that goaltending.

This lineup is worse than Sweden or Finland. Goalie factor is vastly overrated, you can only ice one goalie, and any top nation can match whoever Russia puts in goal with the goalie who is as good, Russia has no Hasek or Roy.
Centers are just bad, after Datsyuk retired they have Malkin who is turning 37 in July, Kuznetsov who has rapidly declined due to well known factors and thats it.
Wingers are good, but aging, Ovechkin is almost 40 now, Tarasenko is banged up and 32, Panarin 33
They have no true 1d and lets be honest Zub and Zadorov are nowhere close to the quality of US or Swedish defense.

There is a reason why Russia won nothings on serious level since 2012 despite the fact, that unlike other top countries as I have said, Russia always brought their best, they almost never had any declines. And even with this huge advantage they last played in finals in 2015

 

[Gold Standard]

Great hockey players.....................miss what they bring to the table.

yeah, you miss 30+ years of their constant 5th, place finishes to go along with their endless whining of how everything is rigged anyway. That's what they bring to the table. Still trotting out Malkin as a number 1 center. Listen, ! got a few thousand rubles lying around in the garage, *souvenirs - relics of the years that I spent there. not that they are worth anything...but if they finish higher than 5th. in the next tournament they are allowed to compete in, I'll Fedex them to you.

 

[Garl]

Ok, lets look to 50 years in future:

What country has the most potential to grow ice-hockey to the absolute top level?

First that comes is China. More about 1 000 000 000 people and if only 0,01 % , or some region will be from some reason focused to ice-hockey... Why not? There were big plans in the past decade and they hit the reality. But still this is a country, that could change something. Plus, there isnt soccer such popular. Because soccer will be always a break in Europe countries and kids will be always more inclined to play it and not ice-hockey.
50 years is a lot of time. Look to Finland. They won first medal in 1992!

Ccp is interested in sports that can bring a lot of Gold at Olympics. Hockey can bring 2 and needs huge investment. There is a reason that China does so bad at team sports

 

[jj cale]

yeah, you miss 30+ years of their constant 5th, place finishes to go along with their endless whining of how everything is rigged anyway. That's what they bring to the table. Still trotting out Malkin as a number 1 center. Listen, ! got a few thousand rubles lying around in the garage, *souvenirs - relics of the years that I spent there. not that they are worth anything...but if they finish higher than 5th. in the next tournament they are allowed to compete in, I'll Fedex them to you.

I love your enthusiasm.

 

[Lambo]

Winning a semi-finals or quarterfinals game can be more difficult than winning the gold medal game.
A big factor in winning gold can be who you play and when.

For example do you remember when Sweden purposely lost to Slovakia at the 2006 olympics?
They did so to face Switzerland instead of Canada in the quarterfinals. They then went on to win gold.

That’s why medal count is important. It takes into account the totality of the situation as it pertains to legitimate candidates to win gold.

The Finn sees this e.g. completely different I think. In the 90s and 0s, they lost a lot of finals in a row. I think it was 7 final defeats in a row.

 

[martygod12]

Sadly correct. We have Pastrnak but after that there is a big bloody drop-off, both in terms of individual talent and depth. As much as it pains me to say it, if it was best-on-best or Sweden B, C or D team against the corresponding Czech team, in each case the Swedes would be the favourites. That’s just the reality at this point in time.

I would not be that negative, of course SWE A vs CZE A the Swedes would be favorite, but just look at our best lineup:

Forwards:
Zacha - Krejci - Pastrnak
Kubalik - Hertl - Necas
Palat - Chytil - Vrana
Nosek - Faksa - Kampf
(couple of options for 13th, could be Sedlak, Zadina, Zohorna, Rousek, Blumel, Kulich etc.)

Defense:
Hronek - Gudas
Jiricek - Rutta
Svozil - Simek
(also couple options for 7th Zboril, Spacek, Kral, Galvas, Klok etc.)

Goalies:
Vanecek
Vejmelka
(3rd Francouz/Dostal/Vladar)

Obviously not as crazy power as Sweden but still pretty strong, especially in attack and net. The defense of course would be a problem. Honestly looks much stronger then that 2016 WC lineup which was last best on best tournament.

 

[Old Man Jags]

I would not be that negative, of course SWE A vs CZE A the Swedes would be favorite, but just look at our best lineup:

Forwards:
Zacha - Krejci - Pastrnak
Kubalik - Hertl - Necas
Palat - Chytil - Vrana
Nosek - Faksa - Kampf
(couple of options for 13th, could be Sedlak, Zadina, Zohorna, Rousek, Blumel, Kulich etc.)

Defense:
Hronek - Gudas
Jiricek - Rutta
Svozil - Simek
(also couple options for 7th Zboril, Spacek, Kral, Galvas, Klok etc.)

Goalies:
Vanecek
Vejmelka
(3rd Francouz/Dostal/Vladar)

Obviously not as crazy power as Sweden but still pretty strong, especially in attack and net. The defense of course would be a problem. Honestly looks much stronger then that 2016 WC lineup which was last best on best tournament.

I agree with you. I am also far from saying we would always lose, I am just saying that we would not be favourites, and that to my mind also includes Sweden B vs Czech B, etc. We are not a bad side (and it annoys me to be consistently grouped here with teams like Slovakia or Germany; nothing at all against those two, but we are overall clearly better). But we are not what we used to be - sad fact! For now at least.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

This lineup is worse than Sweden or Finland. Goalie factor is vastly overrated, you can only ice one goalie, and any top nation can match whoever Russia puts in goal with the goalie who is as good, Russia has no Hasek or Roy.
Centers are just bad, after Datsyuk retired they have Malkin who is turning 37 in July, Kuznetsov who has rapidly declined due to well known factors and thats it.
Wingers are good, but aging, Ovechkin is almost 40 now, Tarasenko is banged up and 32, Panarin 33

Malkin had 83 points this year. Kuznetsov's decline is overstated, dude didn't have a good season but also shot at a career low 7% and had a career low on ice sh% as well. He's still very capable of producing 60-70 points.

Center is definitely their weakest position but they also have the best wingers on the planet which helps to offset that. USA is probably the only nation without a positional weakness relative to the others (Finland - defense & wing, Canada - goaltending, Sweden - wing & a bit at center).

Positionally, Russia probably ranks:
wingers - 1st
centers - 5th
defenseman - 4th
goaltenders - 1st

They have no true 1d

Sergachev led the Lightning in ice time this year, ahead of Hedman. He's very easily a #1 defenseman. He averaged 27 mins per game in the playoffs

79gp 10g 64p +13 23:49 TOI

Those are the numbers of a #1 defenseman. And he's the #1 defenseman on a top tier team. Provorov also led his team in TOI and was his team's #1 defenseman.

Orlov scored 30gp 4g 25p +7 22 minutes per game as a Bruin.

Zub and Gavrikov are legit top pairing shutdown defenseman.

Zub and Zadorov are nowhere close to the quality of US or Swedish defense.

Nobody is arguing their D is better than the two best nations in the world, but they can field a better group of D than Finland pretty easily. Heiskanen is the only Finnish D in the top 50 league defenseman in terms of TOI, Russia has 4 defenseman in the top 50. Jokiharju is the only other Finnish defenseman who averaged >20 mins last year, and he was 73rd in the league in TOI.

There is a reason why Russia won nothings on serious level since 2012

This is all sorts of ignorant.

During their last 12 WC/Olympic appearances, no nation has as many medals (8)

Russia (8)
2012 gold
2014 gold
2015 silver
2016 bronze
2017 bronze
2019 bronze
2018 gold (olympics)
2022 silver (olympics)

Canada (7)
2015 gold
2016 gold
2017 silver
2019 silver
2021 gold
2018 bronze (olympics)
2014 gold (olympics)

Finland (6)
2014 silver
2016 silver
2019 gold
2021 silver
2014 bronze (olympics)
2022 gold (olympics)

Sweden (5)
2013 gold
2014 bronze
2017 gold
2018 gold
2014 silver (olympics)

...despite the fact, that unlike other top countries as I have said, Russia always brought their best, they almost never had any declines. And even with this huge advantage they last played in finals in 2015

This is the last roster they sent to the WC (2021).

Are you telling me this is their best? 8 of their top 9 scorers aren't even playing in the NHL right now, and that 1 guy (Barabanov) probably doesn't even make Russia's best on best roster.

And they had none of their top 3 goalies. Samonov was their starter....

Huge advantage they had that year, let me tell ya.

And even with this huge advantage they last played in finals in 2015

Which is 5 tournaments, where they have pretty much never gotten their full complement of players, as you so mistakenly claim. For example, Vasilevsky, arguably the best goalie in the world over the last 5-7 years, was only present on 3 WC rosters since 2014. They medaled all 3 years (1 gold and 2 bronzes)

But in those last 5 tournaments, they were knocked out by Finland 2 times (outshot them in both games) and Canada 3 times (twice in OT, and the other was a very late 3rd period comeback by Canada). They won bronze in 3 of those years, and were undefeated in bronze medal games:

2016 - lost 3-1 in semifinal to Finland despite outshooting them 29-16.
Beat USA for bronze.
2017 - lost 4-2 (ENG) in semifinal to strong Canadian team led by Mackinnon, Marner, Point, ROR etc
Beat Finland for bronze.
2018 - lost 5-4 in OT in QFs to another strong Canadian team, led by McDavid, Barzal, Horvat, RNH etc.
2019 - lost 1-0 in semifinal to Finland.
Beat Czechs for bronze.
2021 - lost 2-1 in OT in QFs to Canada, they had none of their top players and weren't allowed to compete under their flag.

You are completely out to lunch here. Russia would very much be a threat to win gold in a best on best tournament

 

[martygod12]

I agree with you. I am also far from saying we would always lose, I am just saying that we would not be favourites, and that to my mind also includes Sweden B vs Czech B, etc. We are not a bad side (and it annoys me to be consistently grouped here with teams like Slovakia or Germany; nothing at all against those two, but we are overall clearly better). But we are not what we used to be - sad fact! For now at least.

We need to grow that D. Good thing is that the first best on best probably wont be till 2026, and Jiricek, Svozil, Spacek can all be NHL regulars till then (hopefully lol). And also not many players from that list I posted will not be present anymore in 2026 (only Krejci, maybe Gudas and Simek hard to tell about those two, but the rest should still be in the NHL hopefuly again), and it can be infused with young guys like Kulich, Sale, Rousek, Blumel in front, so maybe it can even look stronger in lets say 3-4 years we will see. Still it will need a lot of work and changes to catch up the top 5, and dont know if we are capable of that.

 

[Lambo]

Finland (6)
2014 silver
2016 silver
2019 gold
2021 silver
2014 bronze (olympics)
2022 gold (olympics)

The 2011 gold medal an WC 2022 for Finland is no longer counted.

 

[waitin425]

In a best on best, Canada remains the top dog. But I wouldn't want to play the US. Actually....looking below I would probably have to take the US at this point.

M. Tkachuk - Matthews - B. Tkachuk
Thompson - Eichel - Connor
Robertson - Hughes - Keller (Holy hell)
Miller - Larkin - Tuch
Gaudreau/Cat/Beniers/Caufield

Q Hughes - A Fox
Fowler - McAvoy
K Miller - Faulk
Hanifin/S. Jones/ L Hughes/Hutson

Oettinger
Helleybuck
Swayman

That top line would be an absolute pain in the ass to play against. Probably the most pain in the ass line in the history of the sport.

Second line is two big players dishing to a finisher in Connor

Third line would absolutely scare the shit out of me with their speed

Fourth line has a mix of size, speed, scoring and defensive prowess. Pull in Gaudreau or Debrincat anywhere in the lineup. Not to mention Matty Beniers who could end up as good as Hughes.

By the time the next Best on Best rolls around, this will be a near impossible team to beat.

 

[Svedu]

1. Canada
2. USA/Finland
3. Sweden/Russia

(I could also see Sweden as a clear cut third place with Russia being on fourth. Kaprizov, Kuznetsov and Svechnikov are great players but their D doesn't impress and some stars are clearly declining and they have also been very unlucky with two talents I saw great potential in, Amirov and Miroschnichenko. I wish these two guys the best and they're still young.
Michkov is the only talent who's been on the same level or actually between talents like Kuznetsov and Tarasenko.
He's no Ovechkin (not yet and not in my books) and perhaps not even on Malkins level. Also, as a talent, I wouldn't insist on stating he would be better than Kuznetsov at the same age, people seem to forget how much of a talent he actually was. Kuznetsov dominated against 3 year older players from Canada, the US at the WJC's and he did that in Canada and smaller rinks as well. Perhaps one of the biggest talents I've ever seen. He was so smooth and elegant, on a whole other level than other big talents.
My point is, Michkov is the only wow-talent I see in Russia now. So if we look three years further down the line? Something needs to happen pretty quickly.

4. Czechs (They have game winning players in Pastrnak and Necas and I do believe they will have a good D in a couple of years. Also, Dostal was (haven't followed him this last year) the biggest talent amongst goalies since Vasi. He seemed to be a goalie capable of stealing games.
Im' intrigued to see what Kari can do with their national team but one thing has struck me with the Czechs these last years and that's goalie selection. Vejmelka is an example, I have never been impressed by him what so ever. I have a hard time seeing him to be the best option out there, even for the Skoda cup. Langhammer is another one. I also remember when they chose Malik in the WJC's... Just some weird decisions from the staff.

5. Swiss/ Slovakia and Germany.
(Swiss have been over the other two for me but Slovakia will rise in 2-5 years depending on how their talents progress and I also see them having a bigger chance to close the gap to the Czechs than the Swiss do.
Germany then, well Seider, Stützle and Peterka are really good leading players. They've all shown in a young age to be able to carry their teams with both attitude and skill. More than other teams stars and potential stars so far.
I'm not as sure about Hischier and others and Slafkovsky and others. Hischier is there talent wise but he hasn't been able to carry the Swiss to anything worth mentioning. Slafkovsky and the Slovakian talents are a bit younger so that will take time to evaluate. It's a bit more difficult to speculate how good Reichel, Book and others will become. Perhaps you could still say that the germans lack the depth compared to the other two.
If anything, I could see those three countries close the gap to all nations above if their talents progress in a good way.
Last but not least, I would still bet my money on Slovakia. Why? Much bigger depth.
Nemec, Dvorsky, Slafkovsky should be able to be producing players. Then you have the second category with Chromiak, Sykora, Ruzicka, Fehervary, Cernak etc. Third in Ciernik, Repcik, Honzek, Knazko, Pospisil, Studenic.
They also have those like Regenda and others, players that could be valuable just like Anttila and Björninen has been for Finland through the years. Underrated fourth line players.
If they get a good goalie to match, perhaps Hlavaj or another one? They will be up there sooner than later.

 

[martygod12]

1. Canada
2. USA/Finland
3. Sweden/Russia

(I could also see Sweden as a clear cut third place with Russia being on fourth. Kaprizov, Kuznetsov and Svechnikov are great players but their D doesn't impress and some stars are clearly declining and they have also been very unlucky with two talents I saw great potential in, Amirov and Miroschnichenko. I wish these two guys the best and they're still young.
Michkov is the only talent who's been on the same level or actually between talents like Kuznetsov and Tarasenko.
He's no Ovechkin (not yet and not in my books) and perhaps not even on Malkins level. Also, as a talent, I wouldn't insist on stating he would be better than Kuznetsov at the same age, people seem to forget how much of a talent he actually was. Kuznetsov dominated against 3 year older players from Canada, the US at the WJC's and he did that in Canada and smaller rinks as well. Perhaps one of the biggest talents I've ever seen. He was so smooth and elegant, on a whole other level than other big talents.
My point is, Michkov is the only wow-talent I see in Russia now. So if we look three years further down the line? Something needs to happen pretty quickly.

4. Czechs (They have game winning players in Pastrnak and Necas and I do believe they will have a good D in a couple of years. Also, Dostal was (haven't followed him this last year) the biggest talent amongst goalies since Vasi. He seemed to be a goalie capable of stealing games.
Im' intrigued to see what Kari can do with their national team but one thing has struck me with the Czechs these last years and that's goalie selection. Vejmelka is an example, I have never been impressed by him what so ever. I have a hard time seeing him to be the best option out there, even for the Skoda cup. Langhammer is another one. I also remember when they chose Malik in the WJC's... Just some weird decisions from the staff.

5. Swiss/ Slovakia and Germany.
(Swiss have been over the other two for me but Slovakia will rise in 2-5 years depending on how their talents progress and I also see them having a bigger chance to close the gap to the Czechs than the Swiss do.
Germany then, well Seider, Stützle and Peterka are really good leading players. They've all shown in a young age to be able to carry their teams and with both attitude and skill. More than other teams stars and potential stars so far. It's a bit more difficult to speculate how good Reichel, Book and others will become. Perhaps you could still say that the germans lack the other two nations depth.
If anything, I could see those three countries close the gap to all nations above if their talents progress in a good way.

Kari will probably do nothing more with Czechs, he will be very probably fired, we discussed it in lenght in the Czech WCH 2023 team thread, and all mostly agree it is a right decision.

Our team suffers under him very much, sure he brought us bronze last year, but it was mostly luck (lucky we got Germans in qf) and Pastrnak who did that. And it cant outweight the terrible this year WCH, but mosty the terrible, boring and often sadly completely unwatchable performances we have under him in those last two years.

 

[Svedu]

Kari will probably do nothing more with Czechs, he will be very probably fired, we discussed it in lenght in the Czech WCH 2023 team thread, and all mostly agree it is a right decision.

Our team suffers under him very much, sure he brought us bronze last year, but it was mostly luck (lucky we got Germans in qf) and Pastrnak who did that. And it cant outweight the terrible this year WCH, but mosty the terrible, boring and often sadly completely unwatchable performances we have under him in those last two years.

But one thing remains, goalie selections? How in hell do you have so questionable goalies in different tournaments when Czechs are quite good producing goalies in general?

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

The 2011 gold medal for Finland is no longer counted.

The guy referenced "since 2012" so that's when I started the counts.

 

[Svedu]

The Finnish center depth is quite amazing and yes, that's what separates Finland from Sweden and especially Russia. I just can't understand how anyone would think anything else.
The thing with Finnish center depth is the fact that they have responsible centers with quite the level in both ends.
Barkov
Hintz
Aho (just like Rantanen)
Rantanen (can master all positions)
Luostarinen (heavily underrated)
Lundell (underrated talent)
Kotkaniemi
Pärssinen
And perhaps Räty or Lambert in the future as well. Quite astonishing for a small country like Finland.

The forward group overall is top three for me above both Sweden and Russia.
If you add some names to that center group (also able to play at wing) like Laine, Eeli Tolvanen, Lehkonen, Teräväinen, Maccelli (could be something really good), Kakko... Just like the canes commentator says, hey hey, what' d'you say lol.

Then you have those players who still could become something decent in Heponiemi, Ylönen, Puljujärvi, Kapanen in St: Louis with a bigger role, Roby Järventie, Kupari, Puustinen .You just never know.
And those younger ones with Kemell of course.
Yep, Finland are stacked offensively but it seems like a lot of people just doesn't fully recognize that and that's fine because they will be up for a rude awakening if we get a best-on-best soon.

 

[Lambo]

The guy referenced "since 2012" so that's when I started the counts.

Tens and twenties make sense.

 

[Goodman68]

But one thing remains, goalie selections? How in hell do you have so questionable goalies in different tournaments when Czechs are quite good producing goalies in general?

Vejmelka actually had a very good tournament according to the statistics. Maybe it's a perception influenced by those two goals with the Americans, but I'm not sure if those were his mistakes. He probably didn't see the shots. It was rather grotesque what was happening around the use of goalkeepers in the tournament. The majority wanted Vejmelka in goal, and if it weren't for the literally tragic performances of Hrubec, he might not have scored at all.