Are the Toronto Maple Leafs Stanley Cup contenders?

[jcs0218]

Marner and his soft perimeter game is as good as gone.

I bet you Marner remains with the Maple Leafs, and at more than $12.0 million per season.

He can't be traded. He has a full NMC (No Movement Clause) and he certainly isn't going to waive it.

He won't be allowed to walk into free agency and leave for nothing.

So what circumstances do you see him leaving?

What is going to happen is he will ask for something $12.0 million or more, and he will say:

"You gave Nylander $11.5 million and I have a much more proven track-record than him as a star player (which he would be correct in saying this; he certainly is worth more than Nylander)".

Then Treliving and Shanahan will give him what he wants.

 

[VivaLasVegas]

I bet you Marner remains with the Maple Leafs, and at more than $12.0 million per season.

He can't be traded. He has a full NMC (No Movement Clause) and he certainly isn't going to waive it.

He won't be allowed to walk into free agency and leave for nothing.

So what circumstances do you see him leaving?

What is going to happen is he will ask for something $12.0 million or more, and he will say:

"You gave Nylander $11.5 million and I have a much more proven track-record than him as a star player (which he would be correct in saying this; he certainly is worth more than Nylander)".

Then Treliving and Shanahan will give him what he wants.

"We can't sell that bad tuna for anything, so we'd better just keep it in the refrigerator!"

 

[RRhoads]

He can't be traded. He has a full NMC (No Movement Clause) and he certainly isn't going to waive it.

Are you sure.

Best thing the Leafs could do would be to trade him for a haul, and retaining half his salary. Get great prospects that can come in now and contribute, while they are still on ELCs.

 

[jcs0218]

Are you sure.

Best thing the Leafs could do would be to trade him for a haul, and retaining half his salary. Get great prospects that can come in now and contribute, while they are still on ELCs.

His No Movement Clause took effect on July 1st 2023.

If he was going to be traded, then they needed to do it before July 1st 2023.

He won't agree to waive his NMC now.

Also, even if he could be traded, why would any team give up great prospects who are still on their ELCs for a winger that is likely to want $12.0 million or more?

Great prospects on ELCs are very highly coveted because they are good, cheap, and they are going to be controlled by RFA status for awhile. Teams generally don't get rid of those types of players.

 

[leafsfan5]

The only top 4 defenseman they have is Rielly. All other defensemen are 5th, 6th, 7th calibre defensemen.

And Rielly isn't known for his defensive acumen.

This is what paying Matthews, Marner, Tavares, and Nylander so much has caused. It has caused them to use bargain-bin players throughout the rest of their roster.

Not necessarily. The Leafs have been a really good defensive team the past few years with the big 4 making the same amount they did this year. At their peak they had the following defensive core:

Muzzin - Brodie
Rielly - Lyubushkin
Giordano - Liljergen/Holl

Which was incredibly solid and outplayed Tampa in 2022. The issue has been that over time this defensive core has become significantly older and neither GM (Dubas or Treliving) was proactive in addressing it. Muzzin got injured and his career ended (top pairing D gone), Brodie regressed from an elite defensive defenseman to a pylon, Giordano naturally aged etc.

The big 4 experiment is a failed one, but it failed because the players are too similar and wilt under pressure. Not necessarily because they make too much money. In fact, back in 2022 our bottom 6 made more money than Tampa's did yet our depth was outplayed by them

 

[Dr Pepper]

His No Movement Clause took effect on July 1st 2023.

If he was going to be traded, then they needed to do it before July 1st 2023.

He won't agree to waive his NMC now.

Doesn't mean they have to sign him, though.

The way this season's going, paired with Marner's attitude/performance over the years, might be a sigh of relief from some Leafers once he's jettisoned off the roster, either via trade or on July 1st when the Leafs finally decide he just isn't worth the money.

 

[Divine]

The 24 year old goalie had a .907 in the AHL just the year prior.

That’s really good. Carey Price did worse in the AHL and turned out pretty well. So did Brodeur.

Also I don’t get how improving in the AHL is supposed to be bad. Go back a few more years and you’ll see even worse stats - is improvement a negative to you?

 

[Dotter]

Leafs got real lucky drafting the top talent they have and also signing a prime Tavares (at the time).

Then went full stupid when it came time to paying these top talented kids which left the team handcuffed along with Tavares inevitable bad contract. It was clear at the time Tavaras contract was not going to age well, so they should of had a contingency plan in place.

I always thought Leafs should have traded a few of their fineness players for top D, goaltending and quality depth.

Look around the NHL to see how cup winning teams are built. They have everything Toronto does not: toughness, good goaltending, depth, great defense. Look at what these winners don't have: 4 soft scoring forwards eating 50% of the cap and a bunch of scraps plugging holes.

What's crazy, is Leafs had some of these types of players Cup Winners have, but had to let them go they could afford to re-sign their soft finesse players. Toronto is a country club and Leafs management is their own undoing.

Personally, I think the damage is done and TML are stuck now. They just shot themselves in the foot again with the Nylander contract.

NHL teams around the league are probably looking at Leafs as an example how not to build a team if winning Lord Stanley is your goal.

 

[Kerberos]

The rotating cast of depth players Toronto has filtered through; Hyman, Spezza, Kerfoot, Bunting, Engvall, Kase, Kampf, Jarnkrok, Bertuzzi, Domi, Lafferty, Acciari, O'Reilly etc throughout the years are players I'd love to hear from candidly.

One gets the sense that there's a clique in Toronto between Matthews and Marner - maybe Nylander and Tavares as well I suppose, that dictates everything. Matthews and Marner seemingly have it written into their contracts that they must, under no circumstances, ever not be allowed to play with one another. Or be held accountable. They're rarely split up for more than a game or two, even when not producing and God forbid if any criticism is directed their way. It always ends up being quickly walked back. Both of them seem more invested in their regular season point totals and personal accolades above everything else and the moment they're physically or emotionally challenged, they crumble. See, playoffs.

It has to be demoralizing as a teammate to play with people who are only invested in their personal brand and couldn't care less about team success. Especially when they're given carte blanche to demand whatever they want from an organization that is all too happy to capitulate. I'm curious to see what would happen to Matthews and Marner under an actual coach who wouldn't play favorites.

 

[FerrisRox]

Reaves is a "sand paper" type. Bertuzzi and Domi, .... no. Their fathers? Yes. Domi can still fill a useful spot on the 3rd line, I don't' know what Bertuzzi is doing on that roster other than "we hope he'll become more like his dad."

Tyler Bertuzzi's father is Adrian Gedye. He is a talent agent. Nobody wants Tyler Bertuzzi to become more like him on the ice.

 

[Ratsreign]

is Keefe’s seating getting hot yet?

 

[Dr Pepper]

Leafs got real lucky drafting the top talent they have and also signing a prime Tavares (at the time).

Then went full stupid when it came time to paying these top talented kids which left the team handcuffed along with Tavares inevitable bad contract. It was clear at the time Tavaras contract was not going to age well, so they should of had a contingency plan in place.

I think signing Tavares was their first mistake; he was a luxury they did not need. Instead of shoring up the blueline or goaltending - which remains a problem, what, five years later? Dubas rolled out the red carpet for Tavares knowing full well he was itching to sign here anyway. His contract boosted the ask for Matthews, Marner and Nylander, especially now considering all three have passed Tavares in production anyway.

is Keefe’s seating getting hot yet?

I feel like his seat should've burned to a crisp after the Montreal series.

No idea how or why he remains employed by the Leafs, especially with Dubas gone.

Just more clear signs that the "Shanaplan" still hasn't worked, ten years in.

 

[PaulD]

I bet you Marner remains with the Maple Leafs, and at more than $12.0 million per season.

He can't be traded. He has a full NMC (No Movement Clause) and he certainly isn't going to waive it.

He won't be allowed to walk into free agency and leave for nothing.

So what circumstances do you see him leaving?

What is going to happen is he will ask for something $12.0 million or more, and he will say:

"You gave Nylander $11.5 million and I have a much more proven track-record than him as a star player (which he would be correct in saying this; he certainly is worth more than Nylander)".

Then Treliving and Shanahan will give him what he wants.

Sounds like Toronto The core four run the team.
Because another response could be you contract ir running out

I bet you Marner remains with the Maple Leafs, and at more than $12.0 million per season.

He can't be traded. He has a full NMC (No Movement Clause) and he certainly isn't going to waive it.

He won't be allowed to walk into free agency and leave for nothing.

So what circumstances do you see him leaving?

What is going to happen is he will ask for something $12.0 million or more, and he will say:

"You gave Nylander $11.5 million and I have a much more proven track-record than him as a star player (which he would be correct in saying this; he certainly is worth more than Nylander)".

Then Treliving and Shanahan will give him what he wants.

 

[PaulD]

A Better response to Marner regarding trade..... but won't happen.
"We need to strengthen the team on the blue line and depth up front. We can't win with this team/core. So we are going to sell part of the core to strengthen other positions on the team. Being that you're game is soft and play offs are a problem for you. We would rather trade you than resign you. Any particular teams you would like us to call first? But if you insist on enforcing the no move clause.....I guess we can just continue as usual. And you and the core can continue to run the team"

Think a player , any player might change his mind and waive his no movement after that fact bearing conversation?

 

[BCNate]

Maybe I am misssing something, but I see a lot of people talking about potential trades that the Leafs are going to make. How does that work? I see they have about $40k in unused LTIR left.

 

[General Fanager]

I bet you Marner remains with the Maple Leafs, and at more than $12.0 million per season.

He can't be traded. He has a full NMC (No Movement Clause) and he certainly isn't going to waive it.

He won't be allowed to walk into free agency and leave for nothing.

So what circumstances do you see him leaving?

What is going to happen is he will ask for something $12.0 million or more, and he will say:

"You gave Nylander $11.5 million and I have a much more proven track-record than him as a star player (which he would be correct in saying this; he certainly is worth more than Nylander)".

Then Treliving and Shanahan will give him what he wants.

He has a NMC which means The Leafs have literally no say at all in that. He can do what he pleases. You are correct in your other points though. The Leafs will have to pay him w/e he wants. If he was smart though he'd leave.

 

[General Fanager]

Maybe I am misssing something, but I see a lot of people talking about potential trades that the Leafs are going to make. How does that work? I see they have about $40k in unused LTIR left.

There is almost nothing they can do. The top guys aren't going anywhere and if they were smart they wouldn't deal picks or prospects at this stage. Then there is the cap situation....

Unless they go out in a blaze of glory for this one year to win it all and trade every pick and prospect they have to shed cap and add players who know how to win but i don't see it happening.

 

[General Fanager]

Cup contenders? at this point there are far from a lock to make the playoffs at all and im sure others have mentioned this but The Leafs have the hardest remaining schedule in the NHL so yea....good luck

 

[Yepthatsme]

A Better response to Marner regarding trade..... but won't happen.
"We need to strengthen the team on the blue line and depth up front. We can't win with this team/core. So we are going to sell part of the core to strengthen other positions on the team. Being that you're game is soft and play offs are a problem for you. We would rather trade you than resign you. Any particular teams you would like us to call first? But if you insist on enforcing tour no move clause.....I guess we can just continue as usual. And you and the can continue to run the team"

Think a player , any player might change his mind and waive his no movement after that fact bearing conversation?

Your employer comes up to you and tells you you’re lazy and useless to your company. He says he wants to transfer you departments away from your friends/family, but even though your allowed to pick exactly which one he wants you to go to or even to say “no I won’t”, he wants you to be a team player for him and let him choose regardless of if you’d like it.

God I hope you don’t manage people in your day to day life.

 

[AvroArrow]

Your employer comes up to you and tells you you’re lazy and useless to your company. He says he wants to transfer you departments away from your friends/family, but even though your allowed to pick exactly which one he wants you to go to or even to say “no I won’t”, he wants you to be a team player for him and let him choose regardless of if you’d like it.

God I hope you don’t manage people in your day to day life.

You walk in to work and don't do anything except sit on your phone all day, when you're supposed to be one of the team leaders. You work when you want to but most days you show up late and goof around while the newer guys are doing all the heavy lifting. You're actually a liability to your company but at the end of the year you tell your boss that you are demanding a raise and an extension on your own terms, despite doing a poor job and failing on every major project over the last 8 years.

God I hope you don't work in a team environment in your day to day life.

 

[crowi]

When your top players are smiling in an interview after losing a hockey game, it tells a story of its own.

 

[PaulD]

Your employer comes up to you and tells you you’re lazy and useless to your company. He says he wants to transfer you departments away from your friends/family, but even though your allowed to pick exactly which one he wants you to go to or even to say “no I won’t”, he wants you to be a team player for him and let him choose regardless of if you’d like it.

God I hope you don’t manage people in your day to day life.

In this hypothetical - is my employers business like the NHL where hundreds and hundreds of employees before me were traded to another city. Is it a situation that my employer feels would help his business and his other employees to succeed. Did I understood it wasn't all about me? In this hypothetical did my employer pay me close to 100 million dollars before asking me if I would be willing to relocate?
And last but not least . In your hypothetical......did I suck ass in the play offs. ha !

Cheers

 

[jcs0218]

Maple Leafs Nation is starting to collapse.

 

[wintersej]

His No Movement Clause took effect on July 1st 2023.

If he was going to be traded, then they needed to do it before July 1st 2023.

He won't agree to waive his NMC now.

Also, even if he could be traded, why would any team give up great prospects who are still on their ELCs for a winger that is likely to want $12.0 million or more?

Great prospects on ELCs are very highly coveted because they are good, cheap, and they are going to be controlled by RFA status for awhile. Teams generally don't get rid of those types of players.

Right, I don't think Marner would have a problem waiving to certain teams that will meet his contract demands... but the return is going to be disappointing for the reasons you stated. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. The key is going to be re-allocating the Tavares dollars to depth and defense instead of another star. And one of Nylander or Marner is going to have to carry the second line.

 

[wintersej]

I'm honestly surprised that Toronto didn't take advantage of this window better. It always felt like just a matter of time until my Bruins got surpassed by the Leafs... and it just never happened. The only Bruins old left is Marchand and the Leafs still haven't caught up.

And this year really is the last year of this current window. Next year they will be too gutted. But they should have another window in this core, just need to get around of good ELC guys and the right vets in the middle of the roster. Teams like the Pens and the Bruins were able to get a second run out of their core, teams like Chicago and LA didn't (although there is still time for Kopitar and Doughty).