Are the Sabres better off without Skinner?

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

No because they did not replace him with a better player.

Jason Zucker is not better than Jeff Skinner.

Jeff Skinner is not the reason they missed the playoffs for 13 straight years

 

[sr edler]

As for Kessel being mentioned up thread, he scored over a PPG over three straight seasons in Toronto and even made the playoffs there once as the standout player on his team, so I don't really buy that comparison.

Histrionic Leafs fans being upset he couldn't take them to the promised land is not relevant to anything really.

 

[tarheelhockey]

As for Kessel being mentioned up thread, he scored over a PPG over three straight seasons in Toronto and even made the playoffs there once as the standout player on his team, so I don't really buy that comparison.

Histrionic Leafs fans being upset he couldn't take them to the promised land is not relevant to anything really.

Kessel was absolutely raked over the coals for his entire career as an “empty calories” one-way shooter on awkwardly-constructed Boston and Toronto teams. Then he went to Pittsburgh and Vegas, and suddenly his skills were valuable to winning Stanley Cups.

It’s a narrative that gets attached to certain wingers. Hell, at one point it was common on here to see people suggest that Ovechkin was a net negative for trying to win hockey games. A Cup ring ends that debate every time, which is just a dumb dynamic in hockey analysis.

 

[BB79]

We'll see, but I think Skinner will be better off in Edmonton than he was with the Sabres. Playing in the shadow of McDri should take some pressure off him. I'll miss his epically bad goal songs in Buffalo though

 

[Romang67]

We can call it the Kessel Effect.

When they go on to go on deep playoff runs with their new team, do we call it the Kessel Run?

 

[Three On Zero]

We'll see, but I think Skinner will be better off in Edmonton than he was with the Sabres. Playing in the shadow of McDri should take some pressure off him. I'll miss his epically bad goal songs in Buffalo though

He’s been a complete ghost so far (I know I know, it’s only preseason)

 

[sr edler]

Kessel was absolutely raked over the coals for his entire career as an “empty calories” one-way shooter on awkwardly-constructed Boston and Toronto teams. Then he went to Pittsburgh and Vegas, and suddenly his skills were valuable to winning Stanley Cups.

It’s a narrative that gets attached to certain wingers. Hell, at one point it was common on here to see people suggest that Ovechkin was a net negative for trying to win hockey games. A Cup ring ends that debate every time, which is just a dumb dynamic in hockey analysis.

Kessel played 4 games with Vegas that run logging 4th line minutes, so if people bring that up as some kind of feather in his cap, that would be weird.

People say a lot of dumb things on this board, which a lot of times makes it an insufferable place. Still doesn't make Kessel and Skinner comparable players ability wise. Kessel (while in Toronto) could really bury down on the wing and force the play north–south in a way Skinner never did.

People now talk about how great Skinner will look with McDavid. Kessel during Pittsburgh's back-to-back championships drove a line of his own with Bonino and Hagelin.

 

[SensontheRush]

People love to call these guys "empty calories" until they go out to a well constructed team and their offense helps that team win a Cup.. but then that also doesn't count because it wasn't "their" team or something. Le Centre Master Race or something.

Who are you referring to exactly? Are you putting your chips on the table regarding Skinner going to EDM?

 

[WarriorofTime]

Who are you referring to exactly? Are you putting your chips on the table regarding Skinner going to EDM?

Im not sure what you don’t understand. What “chips”? Are you asking to make a wager? Do better, be less antagonistic.

 

[SensontheRush]

Im not sure what you don’t understand. What “chips”? Are you asking to make a wager? Do better, be less antagonistic.

?

I'm just asking who are these "empty calorie" players that have gone on to win cups you are referring to. And since you didn't say anyone specific, I used a turn to phrase to whimsically ask if you are making a prediction about Skinner this year, and EDM winning the cup.

Kinda weird that you are reading my comment as "antagonistic". That's more on you haha.

 

[WarriorofTime]

?

I'm just asking who are these "empty calorie" players that have gone on to win cups you are referring to. And since you didn't say anyone specific, I used a turn to phrase to whimsically ask if you are making a prediction about Skinner this year, and EDM winning the cup.

Kinda weird that you are reading my comment as "antagonistic". That's more on you haha.

Any scoring winger on a bad team is considered “empty calories”. It’s a meaningless phrase applied from a 3,000 foot view of the nhl landscape.

 

[SensontheRush]

Any scoring winger on a bad team is considered “empty calories”. It’s a meaningless phrase applied from a 3,000 foot view of the nhl landscape.

Or it's a valid understanding of how effectively all players on a team need to be defensively responsible to win the cup, as they otherwise become exploitabled by the opposition and are gameplanned around. We're not just talking "scoring wingers" here, we're talking about the "Mike Hoffman" types, the ones almost incapable of contributing defensively, or incapable of producing under pressure.

So far, only Phil Kessel has been brought up in this thread as one that has won it all, and he did so while being sheltered on the third line.

So that's why I'm curious what other players break this mold, and if there are any that have done so while not playing almost especially sheltered minutes.

 

[Oilslick941611]

They look the same to me.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Or it's a valid understanding

That’s my point. It’s not. Players can be criticized on their own merits. Empty calories is a useless phrase. It may as well be saying this winger doesn’t personally drag teams by the horns and make them into winning teams if they are not otherwise well constructed. Which… ok. Tells you basically nothing.

 

[SensontheRush]

That’s my point. It’s not. Players can be criticized on their own merits. Empty calories is a useless phrase. It may as well be saying this winger doesn’t personally drag teams by the horns and make them into winning teams if they are not otherwise well constructed. Which… ok. Tells you basically nothing.

A good example is Florida moving on from "empty calorie" Huberdeau and then making two deep cup runs. They even further went and dropped Anthony Duclair in the offseason leading into their cup winning year, despite being a good offensive asset even in the postseason.

Perhaps you aren't giving credit where it's due.

 

[WarriorofTime]

A good example is Florida moving on from "empty calorie" Huberdeau and then making two deep cup runs.

They “moved on” by trading him for a player already viewed to be better. Not a great example. Obviously if you use retroactive reasoning to determine which scoring wingers are “empty calories” you’ll look like a genius. For something to be meaningful it should have some predictive power but of course it doesn’t. What made Patrick Kane a marquee player on three cup winners? His game screams “empty calories”?

 

[SensontheRush]

They “moved on” by trading him for a player already viewed to be better. Not a great example. Obviously if you use retroactive reasoning to determine which scoring wingers are “empty calories” you’ll look like a genius. For something to be meaningful it should have some predictive power but of course it doesn’t. What made Patrick Kane a marquee player on three cup winners? His game screams “empty calories”?

I don't know if Tkachuk was viewed as "better", especially offensively, at the time, but definitely the much more well-rounded player with confirmed team control.

Patrick Kane's game is pretty "empty calories" today, but I wouldn't have said so in the past. I never got the impression he was THAT poor defensively either, and even so, we are talking about THE most skilled player in the league at the time; a clear step above everyone else being brought up here.

I am willing to concede that if you are the most skilled player in the league then you can be relied upon in a starting role despite being defensively challenged.

 

[WarriorofTime]

I don't know if Tkachuk was viewed as "better",

What.. Florida made the trade to improve their team, Calgary made the trade because Tkachuk wouldn't sign an extension. Florida sent a Top 4 Defenseman along the way to even out the trade a bit.

Patrick Kane's game is pretty "empty calories" today, but I wouldn't have said so in the past.

Bingo..

On great teams = not empty calories

On bad teams = empty calories

Unveil the curtain, and that's all it is.

 

[SensontheRush]

What.. Florida made the trade to improve their team, Calgary made the trade because Tkachuk wouldn't sign an extension. Florida sent a Top 4 Defenseman along the way to even out the trade a bit.

Florida gave up two expiring UFAs with only a year left on their respective contracts, with both players being highly exploited in the playoffs and leading to early playoff exits. Obviously it was a trade Florida made to improve their team, in getting rid of skilled players that were exploitabled defensively and couldn't perform under pressure, ie "empty calories".

Bingo..

On great teams = not empty calories

On bad teams = empty calories

Unveil the curtain, and that's all it is.

Kane is not the same player he was a decade ago haha. No more game-breaking speed, and pretty lackadaisical nowadays too. Kane would be a great third liner today. This isn't the "gotcha" you think it is.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Kane is not the same player he was a decade ago haha. No more game-breaking speed, and pretty lackadaisical nowadays too. Kane would be a great third liner today. This isn't the "gotcha" you think it is.

No, I'm talking like later Blackhawk years. He was still just as skilled as before. You're talking about post major surgery lol.

 

[MessierII]

Skinner was overpaid but he is one of the most consistent goal scorers in the nhl. The sabres woes aren’t his fault. That team just has an ingrained losing culture they can’t shake. I’ve seen my team go through it and it’s tough to shake.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Kessel played 4 games with Vegas that run logging 4th line minutes, so if people bring that up as some kind of feather in his cap, that would be weird.

People say a lot of dumb things on this board, which a lot of times makes it an insufferable place. Still doesn't make Kessel and Skinner comparable players ability wise. Kessel (while in Toronto) could really bury down on the wing and force the play north–south in a way Skinner never did.

People now talk about how great Skinner will look with McDavid. Kessel during Pittsburgh's back-to-back championships drove a line of his own with Bonino and Hagelin.

To be clear, I do think Kessel’s the significantly better player between the two. I’m just talking about reputation.

 

[SensontheRush]

No, I'm talking like later Blackhawk years. He was still just as skilled as before. You're talking about post major surgery lol.

Well, im not saying that it's the "be all end all" and insinuating that Kane was the problem with those teams. I agree that essential roster construction is probably the most significant, but then you have to prune out the players that are being exploited when you want to win it all, even if they are putting up the points.

These types of players are still a hurdle during the regular season IMO, especially when you got a bunch of them in (up for debate) DbC, Strome, Kubalik, Gustafsson, Schmaltz.

I'm not sure how motivated Kane and Toews were at that point, and then you had Colliton for a bit who might be the worst coach ever.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Well, im not saying that it's the "be all end all" and insinuating that Kane was the problem with those teams. I agree that essential roster construction is probably the most significant, but then you have to prune out the players that are being exploited when you want to win it all, even if they are putting up the points.

These types of players are still a hurdle during the regular season IMO, especially when you got a bunch of them in (up for debate) DbC, Strome, Kubalik, Gustafsson, Schmaltz.

I'm not sure how motivated Kane and Toews were at that point, and then you had Colliton for a bit who might be the worst coach ever.

Sure flawed players have flaws. Not disputing that. Empty calories is an indicator that their offense is somehow not impactful or helpful.

 

[Mrfenn92]

When they go on to go on deep playoff runs with their new team, do we call it the Kessel Run?