Are the Leafs a better TEAM without Matthews?

[Stephen]

Because he is playing with a puck hog in Marner that is trying to make bank. It's the reason he performs better with Nylander lately or even Domi.

Nobody wants to hear that though.

I'd be a lot happier letting Marner be an effective puck hog with others. It was working.

 

[Clark4Ever]

Absolutely not. He is clearly not 100% yet, but even when he is, it has become evident that our line combinations are stronger when he is separated from Marner.

Berube needs to let MNM drive their own lines and give it a long look. He can still throw Matthews and Marner together at times if necessary in certain situations.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Yzerman the player made a critical shift eschewing personal stats gain for team Cup success. Maybe part of the problem is Matthews realizing he has to do the same and he just needs time to adapt to his new role, albeit while being tasked to represent his country through a nagging injury?

At any rate: Looking for the Why?

I know that is the becoming a winner narrative, but Yzerman just got older and his team got much deeper.

That said, Matthews has plenty more to give than he has been showing. There are a handful of games where he asserts himself through more than shooting and he really impacts the game.

Those times are just way too few and far between for a guy that is the highest paid player in the world and the captain of the Leafs. Whether it is injury, entitlement, mentality or whatever as the reason.

 

[ULF_55]

Also, funny wording of the poll question.

Are the Leafs a better TEAM with or without Matthews​

• Yes
• No
• Undecided

Written as is, the choices would be:

• With
• Without
• Undecided

Maybe just take out the "with or" in the poll question itself.. whatever easier!

Yes, they are a better team with or without Matthews.

That's why are at work it is good to get a second set of eyes on a document before you sent send it out.

I agree with your amendments.

 

[WillyC]

Well, he is 5th in scoring… on the Leafs - the six guys who voted yes.

 

[ITM]

For me, it looks like the original Matthews injury forced the team to move quickly into Berube style hockey, and they thrived, taking many steps towards becoming a different team looking to tune up for a playoff run.

Marner found a nice rhythm, elevated his game to new heights, Tavares looks rejuvenated engaged, driving, Nylander has kept rolling, etc, the defense and goaltending was great for the entire month of November. Everything just looked so north south, clean, simple, etc.

Then Matthews comes back. For the most part he's been okay, but the off nights and Marner pairing kind of shows me he's either not healthy, or lost in the transition to Berube hockey.

Compared to everyone else his skating routes look lazy. Sometimes it looks like he doesn't want to get there. He gets to a puck battle and isn't fighting for anything. On a line with Marner and Knies/Pacioretty, he's the most passive one. Not generating offense. Not carrying the puck. Falling into old comfortable patterns.

It looks like the team took steps towards playing harder and Matthews has either been left behind or he's decided he wants to play Steven Stamkos hockey, which is a faux center, 5 on 5 ghost who looks for the switch flipping goal.

Circuitous even? That's my sense as well, but is that avoidance because of injury or preference against Berube's system? Tough to say.

And agreed re: N/S: Nylander (While I'm not his official HFboards Apologist, I might be close, lol) I think three? games ago, went right up the middle, weaving throughout, in the O-zone. Now...I've argued for ever he's much more courageous than he's been given credit for, but this was the deke equivalent of "F-you money". He went to the net with impunity. And Marner has looked much more like pre-big money Marner, OHL MVP Marner via the same attack mode.

The Stamkos comparison is unnerving given Matthews' previous form and casts his trip to Germany in a much more ominous light.

 

[ITM]

I know that is the becoming a winner narrative, but Yzerman just got older and his team got much deeper.

That said, Matthews has plenty more to give than he has been showing. There are a handful of games where he asserts himself through more than shooting and he really impacts the game.

Those times are just way too few and far between for a guy that is the highest paid player in the world and the captain of the Leafs. Whether it is injury, entitlement, mentality or whatever as the reason.

Oh, absolutely. The Red Wings changed and made major moves. But Yzerman most certainly changed his game and when he won those first Cups was well within his prime to continue chasing stats rather than Cups. He was 30, maybe turning 31 when he won the first one.

And agreed re: Matthews has more to give. We've got a while to assess the problem, but I have to question management a touch, that if Matthews is recovering, why is he being greenlit for this tournament coming up? As part of a supplemental conditioning stint for games missed?

Crossing fingers and steepling hands that he doesn't get injured...And I'm not worried about our boys messing him up.

It's the Finns that make me nervous.

 

[SprDaVE]

no

 

[keonsbitterness]

He's not scoring at a 90 goal pace so let's send him to the glue factory.

Send this to the Thread Hall of Fame.

 

[PROUD PAPA]

Oh, absolutely. The Red Wings changed and made major moves. But Yzerman most certainly changed his game and when he won those first Cups was well within his prime to continue chasing stats rather than Cups. He was 30, maybe turning 31 when he won the first one.

And agreed re: Matthews has more to give. We've got a while to assess the problem, but I have to question management a touch, that if Matthews is recovering, why is he being greenlit for this tournament coming up? As part of a supplemental conditioning stint for games missed?

Crossing fingers and steepling hands that he doesn't get injured...And I'm not worried about our boys messing him up.

It's the Finns that make me nervous.

Oh, absolutely. The Red Wings changed and made major moves. But Yzerman most certainly changed his game and when he won those first Cups was well within his prime to continue chasing stats rather than Cups. He was 30, maybe turning 31 when he won the first one.

And agreed re: Matthews has more to give. We've got a while to assess the problem, but I have to question management a touch, that if Matthews is recovering, why is he being greenlit for this tournament coming up? As part of a supplemental conditioning stint for games missed?

Crossing fingers and steepling hands that he doesn't get injured...And I'm not worried about our boys messing him up.

It's the Finns that make me nervous.

I remember an interview with Holland many years ago in which he said Yzerman transforming his game was the number one reason for their playoff success. Of course there were other ingredients as well that brought about championships.

 

[wingman75]

I think Marner, Nylander and Tavares are better without Matthews.

Unclear if that makes the team better.

When the high end talent is on the ice together, I feel some of the benefits cancel eachother out.

I have no proof, or stats, just what I feel like I am seeing.

Imagine how good the rest of the roster would be with 13.5 million to spend. Wow.

 

[Hellcat]

Why not let Matthews try to drive his own line? Without Nylander, JT or Marner on his line?

 

[thewave]

Why not let Matthews try to drive his own line? Without Nylander, JT or Marner on his line?

It has worked well in the past. He seems to like some grinders and one who can get him the puck. All for it, can we make it happen? No chance

 

[Aashir Mallik]

With the Matthews we see now they are 1000% better without him

This dude the last couple games has tried to play keefe hockey. Dangling through the neutral zone and trying to keeping possession at all cost. I hate seeing him carry the puck right now because he does the stupidest moves ever and they always result in turnovers. I don’t know who he thinks he is, but he isn’t whatever that mental image he has of himself.

Don’t get me started on the dzone play because he looks worse than nylander out there. Every 2-3 shift he either throws a pizza to the other team or just a bad turnover right back to them.

He looks lackadaisical, uninterested, and unmotivated to do anything himself. Always deferring and not even being a threat on the PP. Even when he has scored, it’s not been from his shot, both goals against Nashville weren’t even proper shots. His most impactful weapon hasn’t been used

Matthews is supposed to be a leader, like the other 3. Marner is leading with his 2 way play and the other two are scoring goals, this dude is grabbing secondary assists and calling it a night. This entire year has been a shit show from him and I’m starting to think we are just bound for an on year where he’s engaged and playing and than a down year where he looks bored and “injured”.

 

[Apex Predator]

I think the leafs are not better overall without Matthews, Marner or nylander but…

Facts
Leafs have had no success in the playoffs
Leafs have had great regular season success

If the leafs were to trade Matthews or another core they would possibly have a worse regular season record. It would not be unheard if they did better in the playoffs. So does that mean they are better if that happens.

if the results on both scenarios leads to no Stanley cup what’s the difference in both scenarios as end of day team is not a winner.

 

[Mr_Fun]

All this after (only) back to back losses.

 

[Stephen]

With the Matthews we see now they are 1000% better without him

This dude the last couple games has tried to play keefe hockey. Dangling through the neutral zone and trying to keeping possession at all cost. I hate seeing him carry the puck right now because he does the stupidest moves ever and they always result in turnovers. I don’t know who he thinks he is, but he isn’t whatever that mental image he has of himself.

Don’t get me started on the dzone play because he looks worse than nylander out there. Every 2-3 shift he either throws a pizza to the other team or just a bad turnover right back to them.

He looks lackadaisical, uninterested, and unmotivated to do anything himself. Always deferring and not even being a threat on the PP. Even when he has scored, it’s not been from his shot, both goals against Nashville weren’t even proper shots. His most impactful weapon hasn’t been used

Matthews is supposed to be a leader, like the other 3. Marner is leading with his 2 way play and the other two are scoring goals, this dude is grabbing secondary assists and calling it a night. This entire year has been a shit show from him and I’m starting to think we are just bound for an on year where he’s engaged and playing and than a down year where he looks bored and “injured”.

When Matthews was out, you could see Mitch Marner, William Nylander and John Tavares all stepping up in various ways to become more Craig Berube type players.

Marner commands more of the ice, shoots more confidently, has added a little more greasiness to his game, shows so much hustle out there. It's really encouraging to see it.

William Nylander has adopted a real sandpaper edge to the way he hunts for offense, fights off bodies, goes to the net, generates breakaways on a nightly basis and exudes confidence.

John Tavares has been driving harder, pushing north south, been a handful in front of the net and has been laying the body a noticeable amount more than in the past.

With Auston Matthews, it feels like they elevated him after a very controversial playoffs with the hope he would grow into his role, with more responsibilities and he's basically looked injured, disinterested and the least adapted to Berube hockey. The guy is a chameleon and can simulate whatever finesse to power game he wants. I'm not sure if he's still on the Keefe program and others around him have moved away from it, but it's just so passive, so not take charge, so poor at reading the play, and there's zero evidence of leadership. Just that sullen, sniper mentality and otherwise coasting. Just a complete write off season from him to date.

 

[Maplebeasts]

Absolutely 100% no and you should feel bad for starting this thread. All that needs to happen is for Berube to wake up and separate him and Marner. They are MUCH better apart.

 

[Apex Predator]

Absolutely 100% no and you should feel bad for starting this thread. All that needs to happen is for Berube to wake up and separate him and Marner. They are MUCH better apart.

When Tavares left the isles everyone thought the team was done. They ended up being better. I don’t think the thread is crazy as it’s a discussion board.

 

[mjd1001]

I'm not sure if they are better, but I know I liked watching the team game they play without him, and as soon as he comes back issues that weren't there seem to crop up again.

And I don't think its a crazy question. Its not common, but a player can be the most talented player on a team and at the same time the rest of the 'team' can be better without him.

 

[AvroArrow]

No

We are a better team with the best goal scorer in the world who happens to be a top 5 C in the league, on the team

 

[Ianturnedbull]

No


Also I don't think that Tomas Plekanec is a better center than Matthews.

 

[weems]

No we're not a better team without him as our ceiling is significantly less.

What I do think is true, is that when he is out of the lineup we...

Play with more intensity, are more detail oriented and overall the team work-rate is better. It's almost like when he's out, everyone knows they have to do every single thing well and outwork the opponent if we want to have any chance whereas when he plays, we aren't nearly as consistent in those areas and we have more of a mindset that we're just more talented than you and that is what will win the day. It looks like a mindset thing but I think this type of thing can only sustain itself for like 10-20 games before it starts to wear out.

 

[Nineteen67]

Since he was drafted the Leafs have hovered around the 10-16th best team in the NHL.

 

[Larcos_Unal]

No the team is not better without a perennial Rocket winner C in the lineup.

The real question is, how far from 100% is Matthews right now? All the secrecy around his time on the IR lends itself for media speculation.