Anyone else concerned about Tavares?

[notDatsyuk]

You heard it here first folks. Tavares is the worst Leaf. 41 players have played for Toronto this year, and Tavares is the worst player in the bunch, according to a certain poster. To prove otherwise would just be pushing a narrative.

According to this same logic, McDavid should definitely not be winning the Hart... he's not even the best player on his own team! And it's too bad Kane got healthy for them, since he's their worst player! I don't know why Makar gets so much attention on Colorado when Toews is +25 better than him! Makar just gets PP production, which we all know is completely worthless. And we should all bow down for the driver of Boston's generational season... Matt Grzelcyk!

Clearly, plus minus is a valuable stat that tells us everything we need to know, as long as it's relative to the team, and the entire statistical community has repeatedly exposed the countless issues with the stat for years as an elaborate conspiracy to prepare for this moment when they could push this narrative about Tavares. It totally didn't have anything to do with the stat actually being garbage. It's the narrative!!!

The amazing irony of you accusing others of having narratives about Tavares.

Tavares looks quite good at 5v5 when live viewing with an unbiased perspective and good knowledge and understanding of the game.

I was wrong - I didn't think even you were that obtuse.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

35 goals and a PPG player, why is this thread still open.

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

35 goals and a PPG player, why is this thread still open.

If we were told when the Leafs signed him Tavares would be point-a-game with 35 goals at the end of season 5 on this deal...we'd all take that gladly.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

And before somebody responds with "But It's mostly PP" who cares?

The PP has been an issue in the playoffs, if he solves that, GOOD

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

If we were told when the Leafs signed him Tavares would be point-a-game with 35 goals at the end of season 5 on this deal...we'd all take that gladly.

I mean he's only 32 It's not that big of a surprise

 

[Mess]

And before somebody responds with "But It's mostly PP" who cares?

The PP has been an issue in the playoffs, if he solves that, GOOD

That is essentially what Tavares has become a $11 mil powerplay specialist because his +/- suggest he is a liability as a negative player at even strength.

Now I agree the PP is important as special teams are often key to a teams playoff success, so hopefully JT continues to produce at a high level when Leafs are up a man and need a goal to win a game.

We all know its his footspeed that is the biggest factor as the game gets faster and he slows down. As a centre his has more defensive responsibilities and he he behind play and that is what leads to all the goals against at even strength. The solution might be to move him to the wing in his later years now and put a more reliable defensive player like ROR in the middle to reduce the goals against issues.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

That is essentially what Tavares has become a $11 mil powerplay specialist because his +/- suggest he is a liability as a negative player at even strength.

Now I agree the PP is important as special teams are often key to a teams playoff success, so hopefully JT continues to produce at a high level when Leafs are up a man and need a goal to win a game.

+/- doesn't mean a damn thing stop it.

 

[Dekes For Days]

I was wrong - I didn't think even you were that obtuse.

It's the stat and logic that you attempted to use to dump on Tavares once again, so if you're insulting it, you're really just insulting yourself.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Fans of the team like to discuss a players performance. Why do you find that so strange? Seems pretty normal.

Normally It's not strange, but when said fans are proceeding to shit on a 35 goal PPG player it becomes strange

 

[notDatsyuk]

It's the stat and logic that you attempted to use to dump on Tavares once again, so if you're insulting it, you're really just insulting yourself.

?

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

I mean he's only 32 It's not that big of a surprise

It can be hit and miss on these deals. Huberdeau ain't getting a lot of love these days for good reason.

 

[Mess]

+/- doesn't mean a damn thing stop it.

That is where you're wrong.

+/- records a players impact on the game and the score when a team in not on the PP (unless you surrender a SH goals against with the man up).

If Tavares is on when his line scores its a positive and when he is on and he is scored against its recorded as a negative.

If Tavares is on the ice for 1 goals for, but also on the ice in the same game for 2 goals against that makes it -1 +/- and makes the game score Leafs 1 & Opposition 2 and in a losing position.

Now JT would either need to produce on the PP another goal to tie the game or have his teammates bail him out to offset his negative +/- or the Leafs will lose the game. Not only do his teammates need 1 goal to offset the -1 they require +2 more goals for Leafs to win the game.

 

[Gallagbi]

Oh man is it ever painful to watch some of these +/- posts. Embaraasing that this is the quality we see from posters let alone Mods.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

That is where you're wrong.

+/- records a players impact on the game and the score when a team in not on the PP (unless you surrender a SH goals against with the man up).

If Tavares is on when his line scores its a positive and when he is on and he is scored against its recorded as a negative.

If Tavares is on the ice for 1 goals for, but also on the ice in the same game for 2 goals against that makes it -1 +/- and makes the game score Leafs 1 & Opposition 2 and in a losing position.

Now JT would either need to produce on the PP another goal to tie the game or have his teammates bail him out to offset his negative +/- or the Leafs will lose the game.

I know how +/- works It's a garbage stat and has been for AT LEAST a decade.

 

[Zybalto]

A good comparison to Tavares and his treatment here and on the main boards would probably be his fellow #1 from the year-earlier Stamkos.

This season:

Goals:
Tavares: 35
Stamkos: 33

Points:
Tavares: 78
Stamkos: 83

5v5 goals/60:
Tavares: .93
Stamkos: .88

5v5 points/60:
Tavares: 2.15
Stamkos: 2.20

PP goals/60:
Tavares: 3.98 (Comparable to McDavid's rate of 4.03 I thought I should point out)
Stamkos: 2.52

PP points/60:
Tavares: 8.41
Stamkos: 6.79

Everyone's favorite stat for some reason, plus/minus:
Tavares: -6
Stamkos: -7

5v5 xGF%:
Tavares: 54.70
Stamkos: 50.79

5v5 Goal differential:
Tavares: 54.17 (+8)
Stamkos: 54.05 (+9)

Faceoff%:
Tavares: 58.6 (Top ten in the NHL)
Stamkos: 53.6


Holy directly comparable with Tavares holding a solid edge too.

One of these guys has negative threads going on about him on the main boards and one even has a negative thread on his own board.

Both players have had their struggles at ES away from 5v5 play and the only reason Stamkos is even up there in Goals/Points is due to the fact Tampa gets a ton more PPs than the Leafs do.

Crazy how there isnt any Stamkos threads eh?

 

[Dekes For Days]

Just so we're all clear, Tavares is +8 at 5v5 this year.

The people misrepresenting his even strength play are pointing to the laughing stock of the analytical community for the last decade - plus/minus - because it skews even strength performance by tacking on occurrences in other non-even strength and/or abnormal game situations.

Tavares gets -7 for being on the ice in goalie pulled situations. Not representative of his play in even strength situations, or with a goalie.
Tavares gets -5 for being on the PP when a shorthanded goal has been scored. Not representative of his play in even strength situations.
Tavares gets -4 for 3v3. Not representative of his play in even strength situations that have any resemblance to structured hockey or anything we'll see in the playoffs.

The argument, of course, is also built around purposefully dismissing Tavares' dominant PP season, where he set the record for most PP goals in franchise history, and he's among the league leaders in PP production and goal-scoring.

Pretty amazing the lengths some with go to attack our PPG captain.

 

[TMLAM34]

A good comparison to Tavares and his treatment here and on the main boards would probably be his fellow #1 from the year-earlier Stamkos.

This season:

Goals:
Tavares: 35
Stamkos: 33

Points:
Tavares: 78
Stamkos: 83

5v5 goals/60:
Tavares: .93
Stamkos: .88

5v5 points/60:
Tavares: 2.15
Stamkos: 2.20

PP goals/60:
Tavares: 3.98 (Comparable to McDavid's rate of 4.03 I thought I should point out)
Stamkos: 2.52

PP points/60:
Tavares: 8.41
Stamkos: 6.79

Everyone's favorite stat for some reason, plus/minus:
Tavares: -6
Stamkos: -7

5v5 xGF%:
Tavares: 54.70
Stamkos: 50.79

5v5 Goal differential:
Tavares: 54.17 (+8)
Stamkos: 54.05 (+9)

Faceoff%:
Tavares: 58.6 (Top ten in the NHL)
Stamkos: 53.6


Holy directly comparable with Tavares holding a solid edge too.

One of these guys has negative threads going on about him on the main boards and one even has a negative thread on his own board.

Both players have had their struggles at ES away from 5v5 play and the only reason Stamkos is even up there in Goals/Points is due to the fact Tampa gets a ton more PPs than the Leafs do.

Crazy how there isnt any Stamkos threads eh?

Wow, I didn’t know how close they really were.

I guess you have to factor in the cap hits as well. I think if we had Tavares at 8.5 instead of 11, no one would be complaining.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Oh man is it ever painful to watch some of these +/- posts. Embaraasing that this is the quality we see from posters let alone Mods.

Wow, I didn’t know how close they really were.

I guess you have to factor in the cap hits as well. I think if we had Tavares at 8.5 instead of 11, no one would be complaining.

You do know where you are right?

This is the Leafs board where people complain about a 35 goal PPG player

 

[Warden of the North]

If we were told when the Leafs signed him Tavares would be point-a-game with 35 goals at the end of season 5 on this deal...we'd all take that gladly.

No kidding. He's exceeded everyone's realistic expectations for the deal.

Ive heard media people saying this season "he's playing good for half way through his deal, but the 2nd half is still to come".

Isn't - these people are dumb. He's in year 5 of 7.

2nd - His deal is almost done and the drop has not come. He's the same PPG player he's always been, getting 2nd line minutes and opportunities.

 

[Zybalto]

Wow, I didn’t know how close they really were.

I guess you have to factor in the cap hits as well. I think if we had Tavares at 8.5 instead of 11, no one would be complaining.

Stamkos resigning with his team at what was seen as a bargain at the time (tax incentives DO matter)+ Tavares signing as a UFA + Covid flat cap reducing the number of comparable contracts there would have been to Tavares right now all come into play there.

I mean, if the Covid cap could have been predicted, Tavares is signing here for far less as the rising cap is baked into all the deals and at the time, the cap was expected to rise really fast. If Covid doesnt happen and we get guys like Barkov, Gaudreau, McAvoy, Nurse, Point, etc. making 11 million (or close to it), most signing with their own teams, Tavares just becomes another face in the crowd.

 

[notDatsyuk]

That is where you're wrong.

+/- records a players impact on the game and the score when a team in not on the PP (unless you surrender a SH goals against with the man up).

If Tavares is on when his line scores its a positive and when he is on and he is scored against its recorded as a negative.

If Tavares is on the ice for 1 goals for, but also on the ice in the same game for 2 goals against that makes it -1 +/- and makes the game score Leafs 1 & Opposition 2 and in a losing position.

Now JT would either need to produce on the PP another goal to tie the game or have his teammates bail him out to offset his negative +/- or the Leafs will lose the game. Not only do his teammates need 1 goal to offset the -1 they require +2 more goals for Leafs to win the game.

It's not a great stat when you are looking at a single game or a small sample. For example, JT got a plus on Matthews' goal, simply because ROR came off and he went on while Matthews was stealing the puck. And it's not good for comparing players on, for example, Boston and Montreal this year.

However, it does make some sense when looking at players on the same team over a full season or more.

 

[notDatsyuk]

A good comparison to Tavares and his treatment here and on the main boards would probably be his fellow #1 from the year-earlier Stamkos.

This season:

Goals:
Tavares: 35
Stamkos: 33

Points:
Tavares: 78
Stamkos: 83

5v5 goals/60:
Tavares: .93
Stamkos: .88

5v5 points/60:
Tavares: 2.15
Stamkos: 2.20

PP goals/60:
Tavares: 3.98 (Comparable to McDavid's rate of 4.03 I thought I should point out)
Stamkos: 2.52

PP points/60:
Tavares: 8.41
Stamkos: 6.79

Everyone's favorite stat for some reason, plus/minus:
Tavares: -6
Stamkos: -7

5v5 xGF%:
Tavares: 54.70
Stamkos: 50.79

5v5 Goal differential:
Tavares: 54.17 (+8)
Stamkos: 54.05 (+9)

Faceoff%:
Tavares: 58.6 (Top ten in the NHL)
Stamkos: 53.6


Holy directly comparable with Tavares holding a solid edge too.

One of these guys has negative threads going on about him on the main boards and one even has a negative thread on his own board.

Both players have had their struggles at ES away from 5v5 play and the only reason Stamkos is even up there in Goals/Points is due to the fact Tampa gets a ton more PPs than the Leafs do.

Crazy how there isnt any Stamkos threads eh?

I suppose if JT was making $8.5 a year and had helped us win a couple of Cups, we wouldn't be complaining as much.

 

[crump]

Last night Tavares set a new franchise record for PP goals in a season. More than, Mats Sundin, Doug Gilmour Lanny McDonald, Darryl Sittler, Matthew’s. What’s wrong with those guys?

 

[Stephen]

Last night Tavares set a new franchise record for PP goals in a season. More than Dave Andreychuck, Rick Vaive, Wendel Clark, Mats Sundin, Doug Gilmour Lanny McDonald, Darryl Sittler, Matthew’s. What’s wrong with those guys?

I like ROR as a running mate with Tavares, they seem to sync up well from a play tempo and grind tendency. But generally if Tavares can be recast as more of a net front garbage goal man like a slow Dave Andreychuk and less the do-everything center in the Sundin, Gilmour, Matthews and Sittler class, it will help with what's expected of him 5 on 5.

 

[notbias]

That is essentially what Tavares has become a $11 mil powerplay specialist because his +/- suggest he is a liability as a negative player at even strength.

Now I agree the PP is important as special teams are often key to a teams playoff success, so hopefully JT continues to produce at a high level when Leafs are up a man and need a goal to win a game.

We all know its his footspeed that is the biggest factor as the game gets faster and he slows down. As a centre his has more defensive responsibilities and he he behind play and that is what leads to all the goals against at even strength. The solution might be to move him to the wing in his later years now and put a more reliable defensive player like ROR in the middle to reduce the goals against issues.

Draisaitl has the same % of PP points... McDavid is not far off.