Post-Game Talk: And the wheels are spinning, spinning, and spinning, spinning. Jets lose in Sunrise.

[Duke749]

This strikes me as true. It looks like Pav had a horrible game and simply got outplayed--5 goals on 26 shots. Without good goaltending, this team doesn't have the horses to win, especially on a night when it has no F depth at all.


I get the sentiment, but whose head do you chop and to what end? If Grind is right and this team simply isn't that good or deep quite yet, why blame the coach? And if you are Chevy and have no pressure to mortgage the future for the present, you only trade someone for a return that is better long-term. I'm all for that, but it's a tricky business and best done when the fans want it least (i.e., when tradable player 'X' is on a roll and we're in love with him)

The annoying part, is Pavs would have had to straight up steal that game for us, as most of the players didn't show up.

I still have a problem with how we're coached. We've made small improvements to the roster yet have made even less progress with results. We're not getting enough out of our players from the coaching staff.

 

[Grind]

I missed the game as I was working, so I am reacting to the box-scores, a few highlights and what I read here.

This strikes me as true. It looks like Pav had a horrible game and simply got outplayed--5 goals on 26 shots. Without good goaltending, this team doesn't have the horses to win, especially on a night when it has no F depth at all.


Agreed, which means we're not a good team yet, meaning one with consistent G, F depth and winning habits.


They are doing lots long-term, just not the full-blown slash and burn that people want when they're pissed after a loss to a team like Fla. Admit it!

I get the sentiment, but whose head do you chop and to what end? If Grind is right and this team simply isn't that good or deep quite yet, why blame the coach? And if you are Chevy and have no pressure to mortgage the future for the present, you only trade someone for a return that is better long-term. I'm all for that, but it's a tricky business and best done when the fans want it least (i.e., when tradable player 'X' is on a roll and we're in love with him)

I dont' want a slash and burn. If the team determined it wanted to slash andburn i'd support it. if the team determined they wanted to remain competitive while slowly rebuilding (as they say they are) i'd support it. My point is, we're doing neither. We're not competitive, yet we have/hold onto asets whose only fucntion is to make us competitive right now. So either

A)slash and burn
B) switch it up for assets that do make us compettive.


as for the last paragraph, I mentioned before that i see hockey teams as having three key things, System, Skaters, Goaltending. No team is going to give "100%" effort, or "have A games" every game, or enough games a year to end up in the playoffs.

Everyteam team has players who **** the bed now and then. The good teams have 1 of the three: a system that plays to the strengths of the team, allowing the team to mitigate the effect of "bed ********" games, a level of talent on the team that even wen having "bed ********" games they can still get wins, or a goal tender that can bail them out of bed that's been thoroughly **** in.


We don't have any of those things. Our system doesn't insulate our players. Our players aren't good enough to have success when they suck, and our goalie isn't good enough to bail out our players when they suck. Any team can beat any team when they're having a good game. the good teams win games when their having a "bad" game.

 

[surixon]

I dont' want a slash and burn. If the team determined it wanted to slash andburn i'd support it. if the team determined they wanted to remain competitive while slowly rebuilding (as they say they are) i'd support it. My point is, we're doing neither. We're not competitive, yet we have/hold onto asets whose only fucntion is to make us competitive right now. So either

A)slash and burn
B) switch it up for assets that do make us compettive.


as for the last paragraph, I mentioned before that i see hockey teams as having three key things, System, Skaters, Goaltending. No team is going to give "100%" effort, or "have A games" every game, or enough games a year to end up in the playoffs.

Everyteam team has players who **** the bed now and then. The good teams have 1 of the three: a system that plays to the strengths of the team, allowing the team to mitigate the effect of "bed ********" games, a level of talent on the team that even wen having "bed ********" games they can still get wins, or a goal tender that can bail them out of bed that's been thoroughly **** in.


We don't have any of those things. Our system doesn't insulate our players. Our players aren't good enough to have success when they suck, and our goalie isn't good enough to bail out our players when they suck. Any team can beat any team when they're having a good game. the good teams win games when their having a "bad" game.

Very well said.

I'm frustrated because I believe this team could win these types of games with a more dynamic system. The best way to mitigate against games where your battle level is low is to take the players away from situations where your constantly battling for the puck. Noel's system doesn't allow for this as your almost always going g to be involved with board battles in a chip and chase game.

Noel needs to let his skilled players start to make skilled plays especially through the NZ. Guys like Wheeler and Scheifele etc are fully capable of carrying pucks in creating odd man situations without having to retrieve the puck from a dump first.

That and a well constructed pp that could atleast be league average would also help mitigate against poor effort games.

 

[Jet]

I don't buy it.


You don't play the game for 20+ years, spend the work it takes to get through junior, get drafted, and carve out an NHL career without a ridiculouse compete level, mental toughenss and strong desire to win.


it's a bull **** narrative and i'm pretty sick of it. It's an excuse because we don't want to admit our goalie **** the bed, our coach plays a stupid system and has a love affair with useless hockey players, or that the team in general is just not as good at hockey as the 10 other teams it has to be better then.

I actually think its a combination of the two.

Pavelec was not good enough. However, he has been good enough for the most part the past month so I think every player should get a pass occasionally. We all have bad days, and for a goalie, being off just a bit is the difference between winning and losing

Noel. Sigh.

But when you see many guys: Ladd, Enstrom, Byfuglien, Stuart, Wheeler, Tangradi, with just putrid efforts there has to be something else going on there. Some of these guys carry the team on their backs most nights. For all of them to suck so bad? There has to be a mitigating factor. They aren't tired, they had lots of time to recharge. They should be focused, the praccy and tussle between Peluso and Stuart shows they are well aware of the situation.

They HAD to be partying in Florida. Again, I have ZERO evidence to support this, but when so many players play so poorly, guys who usually play very well, what is the explanation? The onlly other thing I can think of is the flu is going around in the room.

IF this team blew a game because they were sightseeing or partying, then that is absolutely unacceptable. That falls on coaching, and there is no excuse there.

 

[King Woodballs]

So it's the coaches fault that there are mandated days off per the cba and there is only so much time to practice?
Okay. Didn't realize that.

This isn't 20-30 and beyond years ago when the coach rules the players lives.

Times have long since changed and these players are spoiled brats more so then ever.

 

[Jet]

I don't trust my or anyone elses ability to guage "effort" in a hockey game at this level.

At any level of hockey there are games where everyone was trying their hardest, gassing themselves, and the other team makes you look like you aren't doing ****. Being read like a book looks the exact same as "not trying".


I still believe that when another team plays in a way that counters what your trying to do on the ice, and you don't make any adjustments, it looks like you aren't trying. You can't get rhythm, you can't get speed, and you can't get in sync. It's not because your not trying. it's because the other teams adjusted to take that away from you.


I firmly believe this is the cause of 90% of media/public commentary on "effort". Effort's a cop out.

Those that complain about this teams effort level would make the exact same statements about any other team with this record. It just doesn't hold up to me.


effort isn't this teams problem. being a good hockey team is this teams problem.

For me though it wasn't so much effort as it was execution. Making simple passes. Making the right play. Handling the puck not like a grenade. Getting a decent shot off instead of flubbing it or overskating it altogether.

To me that is lack of sharpness. That can come from several things: Over exertion, too much 'fun' extra curriculars, not being ready to play the game, not caring, not taking the other team seriously enough.

Most of those things are on the coaches. Yes, hockey players are pro's and the best ones always make sure they are prepared and perform. However even some of the best do not have the skills to do this consistently. That is why you have coaches: to come up with a good system, to make sure the players are prepared to play, and to make adjustments in the game to counter the other teams tactics. I just don't see Noel doing any of this consistently well.

 

[wilty00]

I actually think its a combination of the two.

Pavelec was not good enough. However, he has been good enough for the most part the past month so I think every player should get a pass occasionally. We all have bad days, and for a goalie, being off just a bit is the difference between winning and losing

Noel. Sigh.

But when you see many guys: Ladd, Enstrom, Byfuglien, Stuart, Wheeler, Tangradi, with just putrid efforts there has to be something else going on there. Some of these guys carry the team on their backs most nights. For all of them to suck so bad? There has to be a mitigating factor. They aren't tired, they had lots of time to recharge. They should be focused, the praccy and tussle between Peluso and Stuart shows they are well aware of the situation.

They HAD to be partying in Florida. Again, I have ZERO evidence to support this, but when so many players play so poorly, guys who usually play very well, what is the explanation? The onlly other thing I can think of is the flu is going around in the room.

IF this team blew a game because they were sightseeing or partying, then that is absolutely unacceptable. That falls on coaching, and there is no excuse there.

Why? As sad as it is why can't we just assume that they weren't ready to play the game because they just weren't?

Not that that's acceptable in any way for a professional sports team, but these guys are humans. I'll never understand why alot of sports fans just can't seem to accept the fact that some days their favorite players just don't have their hearts in it some days.

With that said, that's the precise reason we pay Noel to do what he's meant to do and that's why players like Ladd are paid as well as they are... there's no excuse for not being emotionally invested in these sorts of games. You can't build a winning culture and organization putting out efforts like yesterdays. Maybe what we need is to bring in people who actually believe that rather than hoping that Noel can actually inspire that in players who just don't have it.

 

[garret9]

I thought Stuart had a pretty good game....



Yes, I'm saying that seriously.


Actually... to be honest... I thought there were a lot of solid games for the Jets.

Very few Jets were out shot and/or out chanced...

Very few Panthers out shot and/or out chanced...

Tim Thomas stood on his head.

 

[YWGinYYZ]

Frolik had the flu - could others have had it too? Difficult to contain when in close quarters.

Just trying to make sense of the team we saw against the Rangers, vs. last nights version.

Our walking wounded can't get back into the lineup soon enough.

 

[scelaton]

as for the last paragraph, I mentioned before that i see hockey teams as having three key things, System, Skaters, Goaltending. No team is going to give "100%" effort, or "have A games" every game, or enough games a year to end up in the playoffs.
Everyteam team has players who **** the bed now and then. The good teams have 1 of the three: a system that plays to the strengths of the team, allowing the team to mitigate the effect of "bed ********" games, a level of talent on the team that even wen having "bed ********" games they can still get wins, or a goal tender that can bail them out of bed that's been thoroughly **** in.
We don't have any of those things. Our system doesn't insulate our players. Our players aren't good enough to have success when they suck, and our goalie isn't good enough to bail out our players when they suck. Any team can beat any team when they're having a good game. the good teams win games when their having a "bad" game.

I agree with your ingredients for good teams. I posted after the NYR game--when we were all feeling more positive--that the Jets goals against was improving: 10 out of 15 games with 2 goals or less in reg time. I attributed that to a combo of better goaltending and a system that actually was adapting to the limitations of the team, over time. Was last night an aberration within a better defensive system (and improving G), or was the past month the aberration? We'll soon see.

 

[Jet]

So it's the coaches fault that there are mandated days off per the cba and there is only so much time to practice?
Okay. Didn't realize that.

This isn't 20-30 and beyond years ago when the coach rules the players lives.

Times have long since changed and these players are spoiled brats more so then ever.

The players do and should have days off. However, for the 6 or so months that hockey is on they have a responsibility to the team to be ready for every game and every practice. If what they are doing is negatively affecting that, then it is up to the coach to take appropriate steps to fix it. The Jets coaching knows what the players are up to, there is no way to keep that secret.

It is just like if you or I partied hard the night before a big presentation at work and lost an important account because we did not do a good job. It would be our bosses job and duty to take appropriate disciplinary action. Even though we are entitled to our free time outside work and free to do what we want, we have to be cognizant of how it will affect our work when we are there.

It's a pretty basic practice.

 

[garret9]

Just looked at the chart now... Seems like what I saw...

 

[Jet]

Why? As sad as it is why can't we just assume that they weren't ready to play the game because they just weren't?

Not that that's acceptable in any way for a professional sports team, but these guys are humans. I'll never understand why alot of sports fans just can't seem to accept the fact that some days their favorite players just don't have their hearts in it some days.

With that said, that's the precise reason we pay Noel to do what he's meant to do and that's why players like Ladd are paid as well as they are... there's no excuse for not being emotionally invested in these sorts of games. You can't build a winning culture and organization putting out efforts like yesterdays. Maybe what we need is to bring in people who actually believe that rather than hoping that Noel can actually inspire that in players who just don't have it.

The reason I struggle with that is that so many of our top players were playing 'stupid'. Like not just flat, but stupid. Enstrom had one of his worst games as a Jet after playing maybe one of his best against the Rags.

 

[Aavco Cup]

Thank you for always posting relevant Jets tweets Aavco Cup. I don't know about others, but I really appreciate it.

And I thank this bi-polar forum for keeping me up to date this week. I've been at the MTS Centre all week taking in the curling. Our GDT's are a very bizzare way to follow a game live.

 

[King Woodballs]

The players do and should have days off. However, for the 6 or so months that hockey is on they have a responsibility to the team to be ready for every game and every practice. If what they are doing is negatively affecting that, then it is up to the coach to take appropriate steps to fix it. The Jets coaching knows what the players are up to, there is no way to keep that secret.

It is just like if you or I partied hard the night before a big presentation at work and lost an important account because we did not do a good job. It would be our bosses job and duty to take appropriate disciplinary action. Even though we are entitled to our free time outside work and free to do what we want, we have to be cognizant of how it will affect our work when we are there.

It's a pretty basic practice.

I understand and do agree with what you are saying.
Problem is it's allot easier for my boss to fire me then it is a NHL player.

 

[Positive]

So the conclusion now is that the players were partying too hard in Florida. And now lets go deeper into this rabbit hole we've invented, and also assume that Noel took no efforts to reign in this imagined partying. Yet another damning piece of evidence against Noel! Fire the coach!

 

[Grind]

The players do and should have days off. However, for the 6 or so months that hockey is on they have a responsibility to the team to be ready for every game and every practice. If what they are doing is negatively affecting that, then it is up to the coach to take appropriate steps to fix it. The Jets coaching knows what the players are up to, there is no way to keep that secret.

It is just like if you or I partied hard the night before a big presentation at work and lost an important account because we did not do a good job. It would be our bosses job and duty to take appropriate disciplinary action. Even though we are entitled to our free time outside work and free to do what we want, we have to be cognizant of how it will affect our work when we are there.

It's a pretty basic practice.

Just looked at the chart now... Seems like what I saw...

Thanks garret. That looks about right




That's what i mean. Even with that "terrible effort" or "terible execution" they seemed to otuplay the panthers. I honestly don't believe that if we had gotten average goaltending from pav and sub average goaltending from tohmas (maybe even average) we'd be having thsi effort discussion.

we wouldn't be sayuing "oh we stole that one!"

or "oh pavs bailed us out, what a ***** effort"

we'd have said "we schooled them"

 

[Hank Chinaski]

Just looked at the chart now... Seems like what I saw...

I don't see Toby getting rocked behind the net and failing to tie up Fleischmann in front on that chart.

Kidding. Thought the Jets outplayed the Panthers for the most part. Goaltending really was the decisive factor IMO.

 

[WinnipegWinter*]

I'm just glad that its fully evident now that we need to make some serious changes, and not just get by like we have the last two years. I'm genuinely excited to see what Chevy has in store.

 

[garret9]

I don't see Toby getting rocked behind the net and failing to tie up Fleischmann in front on that chart.

Kidding. Thought the Jets outplayed the Panthers for the most part. Goaltending really was the decisive factor IMO.

It's real interesting case of psychology looking at peoples reactions relative to the final score...

Jets are about even with NYR but run into wonderfully terrible goaltending and have solid netminding on their own end. Jets win with decisive score. People talk about effort.

Jets out play FLA mostly but run into terribly wonderful goaltending and have goaltending about equal level to what NYR had in the Jets last game. Jets lose with decisive score. People talk about effort.

 

[scelaton]

I thought Stuart had a pretty good game....



Yes, I'm saying that seriously.

Now I'm worried. Check your pulse and temperature…maybe you have the flu too

 

[Jet]

Thanks garret. That looks about right




That's what i mean. Even with that "terrible effort" or "terible execution" they seemed to otuplay the panthers. I honestly don't believe that if we had gotten average goaltending from pav and sub average goaltending from tohmas (maybe even average) we'd be having thsi effort discussion.

we wouldn't be sayuing "oh we stole that one!"

or "oh pavs bailed us out, what a ***** effort"

we'd have said "we schooled them"

It's real interesting case of psychology looking at peoples reactions relative to the final score...

Jets are about even with NYR but run into wonderfully terrible goaltending and have solid netminding on their own end. Jets win with decisive score. People talk about effort.

Jets out play FLA mostly but run into terribly wonderful goaltending and have goaltending about equal level to what NYR had in the Jets last game. Jets lose with decisive score. People talk about effort.

While I agree there might be a little too much angst and overreaction to the Jets loss last night to Florida, I still think this is a case where the numbers are a little decieving in a small sample.

The Jets I watched last night had a chance to win until pretty much the very end. They had some strong points but overall the team looked disjointed and did not seem able to execute at a decent level. Conversely, the team that played the Rangers was flying and executing at a high level.

To me that just shows the difference in quality between the 2 opponents more than anything.

 

[Aavco Cup]

They HAD to be partying in Florida. Again, I have ZERO evidence to support this, but when so many players play so poorly, guys who usually play very well, what is the explanation?

The same thing happens every time the Jets play in Montreal. Different kind of partying there than Florida though (think Club Super Sex) Anyone remember the Montreal Florida road trip last January? Something went on with Buff on that trip. The players are only human though and all of that is just human nature.

 

[wpgsilver]

I have it from a reliable source* that the players were partying the night before the game in Florida, AND it is Noels fault because most of the shots taken were off his fuzzy stomach.
Just another reason to fire Noel.
My source also says that Peluso was the only responsible player who refrained from drinking OR was the player who drank the most, whichever one is most impressive.


*This source couldn't exist any less.

 

[Channelcat]

Whatever happened, I think it is clear into our third season that we have plenty of guys who aren't very capable of motivating themselves. We need a coach who can get these guys moving!

This whole perceived strategy of TNSE to have long term coaches is dumb. These days you hire motivaters/coaches until the players quit on him then you fire him and get another one.