Analyzing Dubas's Performance - III

[Cleetus]

I hope to god that I am wrong, but, I believe that when the dust is settled we’ll be comparing Dubas to JFJ.

I don’t have confidence in him at all to turn this ship around.

well its a result oriented business so far not looking so promising, if he makes moves to improve this team well there will be praise not sure any other way to put it...

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Remember when Kyle Dubas traded NHL’er Par Lindholm for AHL’er Nic Petan?

Bruce Cassidy and the Boston Bruins seem to have found a role for him. Perfect 12-13th fwd for 800k. Play all 3 fwd positions, solid PK’er, good head for the game, and skills to be a bit of a Swiss Army knife. Good value pickup for the B’s.

Petan is a waste of a roster spot.

There are PLENTY of reasons to be critical of Dubas but trading Par Lindholm, an extra forward is being critical just to because you are bored, you are just nitpicking at that point

 

[sparxx87]

Assuming I fall in to that category of the bolded as a guy not willing to burn him at the stake?

The arrogance this post is dripping with is exactly my point

I don’t want to burn him at the stake, I just want him replaced with someone more qualified so the Leafs don’t miss their window like San Jose or Ottawa did. That’s a real possibility under Kyle Dubas.

Brendan who? Shanahan? Clearly not a hockey man.

He was sold by a salesman and now he’s in too deep. He knows he rides or dies with Dubas’ success and rather than admit a mistake he’s going to ride it out.

Unfortunate, really.

 

[Gallagbi]

He was sold by a salesman and now he’s in too deep. He knows he rides or dies with Dubas’ success and rather than admit a mistake he’s going to ride it out.

Unfortunate, really.

Probably Shanny's lack of athleticism that did him in. I'm sure you've been more successful in your athletic endeavours.

 

[4thline]

He was sold by a salesman and now he’s in too deep. He knows he rides or dies with Dubas’ success and rather than admit a mistake he’s going to ride it out.
Unfortunate, really.

Or he's a HOF player that has a lot of experience with hockey at it's highest levels (a great hockey man) and believes in a long term vision that you (a much lesser hockey man, with limited to no access to inside information) don't see.

 

[sparxx87]

Probably Shanny's lack of athleticism that did him in. I'm sure you've been more successful in your athletic endeavours.

I’m talking about Kyle Dubas, who to my understanding has has full autonomy. Is that wrong?

TSN had a segment questioning why Shanahan isn’t more involved.

 

[egd27]

I'm not sure what's the bigger blunder

Lou giving Marleau the third year when he should have known Tavares would leave his drafted team to come play for the Leafs like every other high profile FA and put pressure on the cap

or

Dubas signing Tavares for $11m without having plan in place to deal with cap implications other than signing everyone to player/agent friendly deals and spending a first rounder to get rid of Marleau.

 

[Cleetus]

I’m talking about Kyle Dubas, who to my understanding has has full autonomy. Is that wrong?

TSN had a segment questioning why Shanahan isn’t more involved.

was wondering why the poster was Calling out Shanahan, you made no mention of him.....

 

[Gallagbi]

I’m talking about Kyle Dubas, who to my understanding has has full autonomy. Is that wrong?

TSN had a segment questioning why Shanahan isn’t more involved.

And I'm talking about him being the hope for the less athletic types who were never able to get off the sidelines.

You know, like Shanahan since he's the one who hired and promoted him. He's the hope for the Leafs right now because Shanahan has put him in that position

 

[sparxx87]

And I'm talking about him being the hope for the less athletic types who were never able to get off the sidelines.

You know, like Shanahan since he's the one who hired and promoted him. He's the hope for the Leafs right now because Shanahan has put him in that position

And Shanahan made a very bad decision letting Lamoriello walk in favour of the stick boy.

Shanahan has lost his mind. I’ve said it several times over the past two years. Most people with his resume would be a lot smarter but unfortunately for the Leafs, there’s exceptions to every rule.

 

[ACC1224]

And I'm talking about him being the hope for the less athletic types who were never able to get off the sidelines.

You know, like Shanahan since he's the one who hired and promoted him. He's the hope for the Leafs right now because Shanahan has put him in that position

That’s a different topic. Not everyone saw bringing in a rookie President as a good idea either.

 

[Antropovsky]

Shanahan had a good thing going... he had a great leadership group in place in Lou, Dubas and even Babcock. Dubas was young and confident and seemingly forced Shanahan's hand? At a critical time in the "culture" development and development of the teams youth. Instability has been rooted with this organization since Quinn was fired and we almost finally had it back...then things were changed. Even if change was necessary, say Lou refused to sign a short term deal or something.... Dubas pretty much tore down all the work Lou did in building an organization that demands respect for the team and organization and maturity. Youth were not allowed to speak to media as rookies... probably to protect their development and also a kind of "earn it" situation for Lou and also leaf players were told to be clean shaven and cut their hair. I know this is a little ridiculous, but it does help development respect to the organization. Dubas terminated all these rules immediately (rookies still not allowed access to media) and even abolished a dress code in post game conferences (which led to Marner wearing a fedora after the game 3 embarrassement). Trying to make a fashion statement after a gut wrenching loss? Dubas also is entirely diff than lou in how he talks to media, he is much much more open and talkative. This seems to have gotten in trouble in the past, saying things like "we can and we will", boasting about Marner before critical contract negotiatiatons... etc etc. Recently he was protecting Marner... saying he is getting undo flack for his performance in the playoffs. Marner himself said he sucked in game 1 and with each game was feeling more and more like himself. So essentially in Marners opinion he was not up to par for the entire series. Dubas wasnt even asked about Marner... he just out of nowhere (from what i read) began defending Marner... or coddling whatever you choose to call it.

Dubas even gave Simmons the cold shoulder during the season ending conference...following Matthews lead. Which In my opinion is unprofessional...no matter how idiotic Simmonds is. Shows more immaturity by Dubas.

Long story short, Dubas seemingly being led by the youth, not leading them. Resulting in entitlement and lazyness.

We were on our way to having a good culture, and in two seasons Dubas disassembled that culture back to the Muskoka 5.

Again, i like Dubas.... i think he has an eye for nhl talent. However, I think his lack of NHL experience has resulted in lessons learned that now set us back potentially years and could cost us a cup this decade.

 

[Gallagbi]

That’s a different topic. Not everyone saw bringing in a rookie President as a good idea either.

True but we've also brought on highly experienced presidents and GMs that have failed. Personally I'm not closing the door on either, it's going to be about the individuals

 

[Conrad Bain]

Or Lou Lam's plan didn't include signing Tavares for $11 mil as the highest UFA all time in a cap world (something that happened 2 years in the future by another GM), with the 3 Amigos all about to come off their ELC and needing new contracts.

If Tavares decides to stay with NYI, and Leafs get that $11 mil cap space back is Marleau now a cap problem this season even with the current contracts Dubas gave out to the 3 amigos?

Tavares ($11 mil) - Marleau ($6.25 mil) = $4.75 mil extra free cap space to spend in addition to Marleau on the roster this year. Without any need to deal away Leafs 1st round pick to remove Marleau.

Unless Lou Lam is clairvoyant, he couldn't have possibly predicted he would have been replaced after taking Leafs from last overall to the playoffs the next year, when he signed Marleau.. Then the new GM would bring in a $11 mil UFA to create a cap problem 2 years later, and then get blamed for not having a plan to address that.

That is not even cynical those are the facts that ended up getting Leafs here.

Lou spent 10.8 on Marleau and Zaitsev...

 

[Stephen]

Shanahan had a good thing going... he had a great leadership group in place in Lou, Dubas and even Babcock. Dubas was young and confident and seemingly forced Shanahan's hand? At a critical time in the "culture" development and development of the teams youth. Instability has been rooted with this organization since Quinn was fired and we almost finally had it back...then things were changed. Even if change was necessary, say Lou refused to sign a short term deal or something.... Dubas pretty much tore down all the work Lou did in building an organization that demands respect for the team and organization and maturity. Youth were not allowed to speak to media as rookies... probably to protect their development and also a kind of "earn it" situation for Lou and also leaf players were told to be clean shaven and cut their hair. I know this is a little ridiculous, but it does help development respect to the organization. Dubas also is entirely diff than lou in how he talks to media, he is much much more open and talkative. This seems to have gotten in trouble in the past, saying things like "we can and we will", boasting about Marner before critical contract negotiatiatons... etc etc. Recently he was protecting Marner... saying he is getting undo flack for his performance in the playoffs. Marner himself said he sucked in game 1 and with each game was feeling more and more like himself. So essentially in Marners opinion he was not up to par for the entire series.

Dubas wasnt even asked about Marner... he just out of nowhere (from what i read) began defending Marner... or coddling whatever you choose to call it.

Dubas even gave Simmons the cold shoulder during the season ending conference...following Matthews lead. Which In my opinion is unprofessional...no matter how idiotic Simmonds is. Shows more immaturity by Dubas.

Long story short, Dubas seemingly being led by the youth, not leading them.

We were on our way to having a good culture, and in two seasons Dubas disassembled that culture back to the Muskoka 5.

I still have a ton of faith in Shanahan because his high level vision for the franchise is the right one, but the recipe needs to be fine tuned.

That said, it kind of strikes me as a little bit coincidental that the way Shanahan promoted Dubas has some parallels between how Dubas handled the backup goaltending situation by keeping Sparks over McBackup and losing Pickard off waivers the same day.

Like Dubas, Shanahan wanted to protect the young asset being groomed for the future, that has had success in the AHL over the more functional status quo.

In doing so, Shanahan brought on someone he expected to take the job but also experienced a real hockey brain drain with the loss of Lamoriello, Hunter, and like him or not, Babcock. And like the goaltending situation the Leafs need to spend some energy replenishing the hockey department around Dubas and Keefe.

 

[sparxx87]

True but we've also brought on highly experienced presidents and GMs that have failed. Personally I'm not closing the door on either, it's going to be about the individuals

They failed because of impatience, lack of talent and poor asset management. It wasn’t because of inexperience or a flawed vision.


The Leafs actually have the foundation to be a great team now. The last few years are a completely different situation.

 

[4thline]

They failed because of impatience, lack of talent and poor asset management.

Two of those three are likely why Lou is gone.

I will admit/concede/state pick whatever word you want, that had we retained Lou I think we would have been a better team with a better chance of winning these last two seasons. How much better I don't know, but I think it's a safe assumption. Would it have been enough to win? We'll never know. But the odds of us pulling it off were low. They always are.

But the other side of that is I think that we'd be in a far worse situation long term than we are now, which completely flies in the face of Shanahan's stated objectives. Because we have a better chance of winning in the next 10 than the last 2.

 

[namttebih]

I'm not sure what's the bigger blunder

Lou giving Marleau the third year when he should have known Tavares would leave his drafted team to come play for the Leafs like every other high profile FA and put pressure on the cap

or

Dubas signing Tavares for $11m without having plan in place to deal with cap implications other than signing everyone to player/agent friendly deals and spending a first rounder to get rid of Marleau.

While I agree that he has given out some horrible contracts, he could not have foreseen a pandemic flattening the cap for the next few years. I would have to think that he was looking at a rising cap trend when he signed JT.

I know that I’ll get called Captain Obvious here, but I was just playing armchair GM on Capfriendly and man we are f***ed!

 

[Stephen]

Antropovsky, the other comment I was going to make about Dubas’ conduct in front of the media is I think he really miscalculated by taking that defensive stance, throwing the word idiotic around and being catty with Simmons. From a pragmatic point of view it’s going to put him under the microscope and constant second guessing had he just towed more of a generic “process” response and kept an emotional distance from his own project.

Without having the precious foundation of success, he has chosen a very bumpy road to go down.

 

[Gallagbi]

They failed because of impatience, lack of talent and poor asset management. It wasn’t because of inexperience or a flawed vision.

Bolded is highly questionable, but I do agree with the rest. It's not about the experience it's about the execution.

 

[sparxx87]

Bolded is highly questionable, but I do agree with the rest. It's not about the experience it's about the execution.

Why would anyone with experience in the game think a team that’s so easy to play against could win in the playoffs?

Winning 4 playoff rounds is hard. The Leafs can’t even get 1.

 

[AllDay28]

30 out of 31 teams a year don’t win the Stanley cup right? Guess All those GMs are trash too. Well unless they’re over 50 and from some meaningless small town in Canada then they’re great

 

[Antropovsky]

I still have a ton of faith in Shanahan because his high level vision for the franchise is the right one, but the recipe needs to be fine tuned.

That said, it kind of strikes me as a little bit coincidental that the way Shanahan promoted Dubas has some parallels between how Dubas handled the backup goaltending situation by keeping Sparks over McBackup and losing Pickard off waivers the same day.

Like Dubas, Shanahan wanted to protect the young asset being groomed for the future, that has had success in the AHL over the more functional status quo.

In doing so, Shanahan brought on someone he expected to take the job but also experienced a real hockey brain drain with the loss of Lamoriello, Hunter, and like him or not, Babcock. And like the goaltending situation the Leafs need to spend some energy replenishing the hockey department around Dubas and Keefe.

Yes Dubas really should still had a veteran mentor. Shanahan himsf has limited experience as a manager of a nhl hockey team. Luckily Shanahan has experience as a championship winning player. Rumor was he wanted Matthews as captain and Dubas wanted Tavares. No doubt Babs would want Tavares too. Wonder how much truth there is too this rumor.... if the Playoffs are any indication, Matthews as early as next season is gonna have quite the gap between him and any other player on the roster. Sure he has intangibles....but the man lacks swagger and seems to be afraid of his own shadow. I really like Tavares, think hes a phenomenal 2nd line center of course..but like Eric Desjardins, Joe Thornton and Patrick Marleau....i just dont think Tavares is suited to wear a C (despite his high level of skill).

I think Matthews has a very high compete, a high desire to be the best and i think with the Captaincy he would have risen to the occasion and would take it personally to lose a series under his leadership. He would have led by example, I think he also would be more vocal in a dressing room.

I think Tavares with an A is fantastic for a team, says all the right things, great skill, great defensively.... etc etc. Great big brother to Matthews and could mentor him as a young captain and prodigy. But i think hes a weak choice as a captain. Also given the fact, it is only his second season with the team. Also...i think not getting the C may sting enough that Matthews may consider UFA more in 4 years than say he would if he were Captain and have that responsibility and history rooted with the team and fans.

 

[Gallagbi]

Why would anyone with experience in the game think a team that’s so easy to play against could win in the playoffs?

Winning 4 playoff rounds is hard. The Leafs can’t even get 1.

You should ask Shanny. Interesting that they're just difficult enough to play against that all these series seem to go to a winner take all game

 

[Conrad Bain]

I think Isles entire success is coaching. All Lou did was give the best coach the most money. That'd be screwed without Trotz.
I still don't like that roster at all. it's the oldest in the NHL and arguably in the worst cap shape. Even if they "Win a round", will it matter much? They aren't winning the cup. After Barzal signs they'll actually be spending more on forwards than the Leafs are.