Friedman: Anaheim and Detroit talking trade?

[duckpuck]

Oh, right. Despres. I kind of glossed over him, because I'm having a tough time penciling him in moving forward. His career seems to be in jeopardy. He'd be exposed too, if he's available to play.

Per expansion draft rules, Players with potential career-ending injuries who have missed more than the previous 60 consecutive games may not be used to satisfy a club’s player exposure requirements unless approval is received from the NHL. The league may also deem these players exempt from selection.

At this point, I'm sure the ducks hope Despres would be eligible and taken in expansion. No way that happens.

 

[Go Wings]

Based on what? Montour is actually scoring at a higher rate than Mantha in his AHL career as a defensemen.

Based on the fact that Mantha has a much higher ceiling than Montour.

Mantha is 6'5 he gained 10 pounds for muscle in the offseason is tied for the lead in the AHL in goals on a medicore Grand Rapids team playing without a great center.

As for leading Montour leading Mantha in scoring in the playoffs Montour had 5 points in 9 games while all Mantha did in 9 games was score 4 goals and 11 points to lead the Griffins in scoring.

But yah Montour is better lol

Like I said we arent trading Mantha for him.

 

[Go Wings]

I rank Montour higher than Theodore but I am the few I am sure.

Montour has been just as good defensively as Theodore in the A. Montour is so electrifying. Similar to Ghost. It's not even surprising anymore when he gets 10 SOG in a game.

If you actually believe that then you should have no problem trading Theodore for Mantha.

I watched Theodore in the NHL last year and the poise and decision making he showed is well beyond Montour.

 

[Not So Mighty]

We've been talking trades forever I'll believe it when I see it

Agreed.

it's probably something involving Fowler for Mantha, but who knows? it could be anyone.

What's more probable is that Fowler plays the entire season in Anaheim. We're in win now mode and he has been our best defenseman if not our best player altogether. Despite being #1 on our trading block over the summer, he has played his way out of the conversation barring an overpayment.

This is one of those threads where people try to convince you Mantha is a garbage prospect and has little to no potential but would certainly be willing to take him off your hands for whatever scraps they have in the minors.

It seems like you haven't actually read this thread at all. It's been very civil and respectful until you came in trying to stir the pot. Mantha has received plenty of kind words from all parties here.

 

[KaseMeOutside]

Based on the fact that Mantha has a much higher ceiling than Montour.

Mantha is 6'5 he gained 10 pounds for muscle in the offseason is tied for the lead in the AHL in goals on a medicore Grand Rapids team playing without a great center.

As for leading Montour leading Mantha in scoring in the playoffs Montour had 5 points in 9 games while all Mantha did in 9 games was score 4 goals and 11 points to lead the Griffins in scoring.

But yah Montour is better lol

Like I said we arent trading Mantha for him.

LOL What?

If we're talking about pure ceiling, how can you even say this?

 

[Sojourn]

Based on the fact that Mantha has a much higher ceiling than Montour.

Mantha is 6'5 he gained 10 pounds for muscle in the offseason is tied for the lead in the AHL in goals on a medicore Grand Rapids team playing without a great center.

As for leading Montour leading Mantha in scoring in the playoffs Montour had 5 points in 9 games while all Mantha did in 9 games was score 4 goals and 11 points to lead the Griffins in scoring.

But yah Montour is better lol

Like I said we arent trading Mantha for him.

Do tell. What do you think Mantha's ceiling is?

His realistic ceiling?

 

[BinCookin]

This thread is devolving into a mess as per normal trade threads.

I may be a red wings fan.. But let me teach ALL HFBoards posters how trade value ACTUALLY works:

1) Most Valuable: NHL Player with experience and track record
2) Medium Value: Newer NHL player showing some success in the NHL (likely needs at least 30-40 GP)
3) Low Value: Generally all "Prospects"

1) [Fowler] [Tatar] [Nyquist]
2) ??? no one mentioned in this thread
3) [Mantha] [Montour] [Theodore] [Svechnikov]

If you want a Fowler, Tatar/Nyquist have to be on the table
Mantha for Montour is a "legit discussion" at which point we can all argue for the prospect's chances.

But lets be clear... Mantha, Theodore, Montour, Svechnikov are "good" prospects, but are indeed Prospects.

They really don't have that much value in comparison to "Real" players.

now in 1 year from now if Theodore//Mantha gets 60 NHL games, their value will be MUCH higher.

 

[Ducks Nation*]

If you actually believe that then you should have no problem trading Theodore for Mantha.

I watched Theodore in the NHL last year and the poise and decision making he showed is well beyond Montour.

I don't want to trade either because I think Mantha will be good but not as good as you think.

 

[Pavels Dog]

I would like to hear why Mantha is worth more, but overall I agree. If a trade was going to happen, it would've happened before Lindholm was signed.

You have to realize how different their value was from the start. Montour is actually older than Mantha but was still drafted a year later and in the 2nd round compared to the 1st. Now sure, Montour has done nothing but increase his value since then while Mantha's value took a hit when he started slow in the AHL. But I wouldn't say it's enough to completely erase the value discrepancy. It's not all about the point totals.

Based on what? Montour is actually scoring at a higher rate than Mantha in his AHL career as a defensemen.

Kind of an out of context comparison. Mantha has an extra AHL season that he started by having to recover from a serious injury. His point totals were admittedly lackluster early on but he also worked a lot on rounding on his game and these days is a much more complete player, while his point totals have been steadily increasing to the point where has been PPG+ for most of this year. He's also getting his 2nd NHL call-up now while Montour is still untested in the NHL. Why, I wonder is Montour not getting the chance if he is as good defensively as Theodore and like Gostisbehere offensively?

Do tell. What do you think Mantha's ceiling is?

His realistic ceiling?

Realistic? 30+30 top 6 winger. But he definitely has all the tools to do even more. The guy is a very underrated playmaker and has all the scoring tools in the world (reach, soft hands, wrist shot, slapshot). Classic example of a prospect that just needs to put it all together, which it now looks like he is doing or is very close to. Even playing in the top 6 next to Datsyuk last season he did not look out of place at all, the statline may not have been anything to write home about but he passed the eye test.

 

[Ducks Nation*]

You have to realize how different their value was from the start. Montour is actually older than Mantha but was still drafted a year later and in the 2nd round compared to the 1st. Now sure, Montour has done nothing but increase his value since then while Mantha's value took a hit when he started slow in the AHL. But I wouldn't say it's enough to completely erase the value discrepancy. It's not all about the point totals.


Kind of an out of context comparison. Mantha has an extra AHL season that he started by having to recover from a serious injury. His point totals were admittedly lackluster early on but he also worked a lot on rounding on his game and these days is a much more complete player, while his point totals have been steadily increasing to the point where has been PPG+ for most of this year. He's also getting his 2nd NHL call-up now while Montour is still untested in the NHL. Why, I wonder is Montour not getting the chance if he is as good defensively as Theodore and like Gostisbehere offensively?


Realistic? 30+30 top 6 winger. But he definitely has all the tools to do even more. The guy is a very underrated playmaker and has all the scoring tools in the world (reach, soft hands, wrist shot, slapshot). Classic example of a prospect that just needs to put it all together, which it now looks like he is doing or is very close to. Even playing in the top 6 next to Datsyuk last season he did not look out of place at all, the statline may not have been anything to write home about but he passed the eye test.

Montour starting focusing on hockey as his main sport when he was 17, he was a lacrosse star.

 

[liquiduck]

You have to realize how different their value was from the start. Montour is actually older than Mantha but was still drafted a year later and in the 2nd round compared to the 1st. Now sure, Montour has done nothing but increase his value since then while Mantha's value took a hit when he started slow in the AHL. But I wouldn't say it's enough to completely erase the value discrepancy. It's not all about the point totals.


Kind of an out of context comparison. Mantha has an extra AHL season that he started by having to recover from a serious injury. His point totals were admittedly lackluster early on but he also worked a lot on rounding on his game and these days is a much more complete player, while his point totals have been steadily increasing to the point where has been PPG+ for most of this year. He's also getting his 2nd NHL call-up now while Montour is still untested in the NHL. Why, I wonder is Montour not getting the chance if he is as good defensively as Theodore and like Gostisbehere offensively?


Realistic? 30+30 top 6 winger. But he definitely has all the tools to do even more. The guy is a very underrated playmaker and has all the scoring tools in the world (reach, soft hands, wrist shot, slapshot). Classic example of a prospect that just needs to put it all together, which it now looks like he is doing or is very close to. Even playing in the top 6 next to Datsyuk last season he did not look out of place at all, the statline may not have been anything to write home about but he passed the eye test.

Why hasn't Anaheim called up Montour? Look at our blueline, it's stacked. Lindholm was out, he's a lefty so Theodore and Larsson got the call. Had it been Vatanen out, I'm sure you'd see Montour get a shot. As it is now there's just no room. Which is why Theodore is now in the Ahl along with him. Montour still needs to work on areas of his game( he's not as good as Theodore defensively), but saying he's a lesser prospect than Mantha is clearly selling Montour short. The last two Ahl seasons, Montour has scored at a higher clip, including this season. And again, that's as a defensemen. then you need to take into consideration the position and niche he plays. Rhd offensive defensemen are worth their weight in gold right now.

 

[drw02]

This thread is devolving into a mess as per normal trade threads.

I may be a red wings fan.. But let me teach ALL HFBoards posters how trade value ACTUALLY works:

1) Most Valuable: NHL Player with experience and track record
2) Medium Value: Newer NHL player showing some success in the NHL (likely needs at least 30-40 GP)
3) Low Value: Generally all "Prospects"

1) [Fowler] [Tatar] [Nyquist]
2) ??? no one mentioned in this thread
3) [Mantha] [Montour] [Theodore] [Svechnikov]

If you want a Fowler, Tatar/Nyquist have to be on the table
Mantha for Montour is a "legit discussion" at which point we can all argue for the prospect's chances.

But lets be clear... Mantha, Theodore, Montour, Svechnikov are "good" prospects, but are indeed Prospects.

They really don't have that much value in comparison to "Real" players.

now in 1 year from now if Theodore//Mantha gets 60 NHL games, their value will be MUCH higher.

You would be correct if it was 1995. The NHL has changed and so have trade values. Really good prospects don't need to prove much at all anymore to have good trade value. Today's NHL is all about youth and value contracts. Nyquist/Tatar would be less appealing to Anaheim because they cost or will cost a lot more for the foreseeable future. If you think the production you'd get from Tatar/Nyquist would be drastically better than what you'd get from Mantha right now over 82 games and given the same opportunities, I think your nuts. Part of being successful at getting good value from cheap contracts is being able to project. Having a track record is nice but not necessarily required anymore.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Why hasn't Anaheim called up Montour? Look at our blueline, it's stacked. Lindholm was out, he's a lefty so Theodore and Larsson got the call. Had it been Vatanen out, I'm sure you'd see Montour get a shot. As it is now there's just no room. Which is why Theodore is now in the Ahl along with him. Montour still needs to work on areas of his game( he's not as good as Theodore defensively), but saying he's a lesser prospect than Mantha is clearly selling Montour short. The last two Ahl seasons, Montour has scored at a higher clip, including this season. And again, that's as a defensemen. then you need to take into consideration the position and niche he plays. Rhd offensive defensemen are worth their weight in gold right now.

Fair enough. I hope to see him in the NHL very soon. I think it holds back his value a bit until he gets at least a 5-10 game look where he shows his defensive game holds up at the NHL level. Mantha's NHL stint increased his value in my eyes but I can see how those who just look at the raw numbers don't feel the same way.

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

Fair enough. I hope to see him in the NHL very soon. I think it holds back his value a bit until he gets at least a 5-10 game look where he shows his defensive game holds up at the NHL level. Mantha's NHL stint increased his value in my eyes but I can see how those who just look at the raw numbers don't feel the same way.

It's tough cause guys like montour Theodore and larsson would be nhl on a lot of other teams but anahiem has a bit of a log jam at nhl defense, so they haven't been able to get their shots. Montour is behind theo and larsson on the depth chart but I think a lot of us are hoping he gets a shot this season if we have injuries. I agree it kinda hurts his value but at the same time we can be patient(he is fairly new to maining hockey) so the extra time in the AHL may be very beneficial to his overall growth as a player.

 

[Nucker101]

Wings should be all over Mantha for Montour if they can pull it off.

 

[Pavels Dog]

It's tough cause guys like montour Theodore and larsson would be nhl on a lot of other teams but anahiem has a bit of a log jam at nhl defense, so they haven't been able to get their shots. Montour is behind theo and larsson on the depth chart but I think a lot of us are hoping he gets a shot this season if we have injuries.

Well that's why we have all these Wings-Ducks trade discussions all the time. One team has a logjam on forward, the other on defense. Just makes sense that they'll work out something eventually.

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

Well that's why we have all these Wings-Ducks trade discussions all the time. One team has a logjam on forward, the other on defense. Just makes sense that they'll work out something eventually.

And I will say wings and ducks fans have been very fair and civil about their evaluations of each other's teams players and worth.

Despite the teams bitter pasts I feel like our team fan bases get along well on the trade boards.

 

[Kalv]

Based on the fact that Mantha has a much higher ceiling than Montour.

Mantha is 6'5 he gained 10 pounds for muscle in the offseason is tied for the lead in the AHL in goals on a medicore Grand Rapids team playing without a great center.

As for leading Montour leading Mantha in scoring in the playoffs Montour had 5 points in 9 games while all Mantha did in 9 games was score 4 goals and 11 points to lead the Griffins in scoring.

But yah Montour is better lol

Like I said we arent trading Mantha for him.

I can`t push you to accept the one for one trade, so it`s all fair enough but comparing those numbers and making an assesment what you forgot is that Montour is a defenseman.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

As usual when Mantha's name comes up I loathe the idea of trading a guy with his incredible talent. The Wings have bemoaned for years they cannot draft a guy with the physical talent of Mantha because of their draft position. Now one fell right into their lap and they seem lukewarm on him for no reason. I don't get it, he has almost limitless potential, they need to see it through with him after Larkin and Mrazek he is the most untouchable player in the organization for me. There are a few players I wouldn't mind including him for, but he would need to be packaged up for a legitimate first pairing D-man right now in my opinion if he was to be shopped. Hard to see that coming back here, Montour doesn't get it done for me.

 

[HisNoodliness]

And I will say wings and ducks fans have been very fair and civil about their evaluations of each other's teams players and worth.

Despite the teams bitter pasts I feel like our team fan bases get along well on the trade boards.

I will say that I don't think I've ever seen two fan bases consistently come to agreements on trades on HF except for this current batch of Wings-Ducks trades (Tatar+ for one of you're defenseman mostly). I personally don't think there's a trade that makes a ton of sense anymore simply because Holland is going to want a defense piece that helps right now and on top of that is super risk-adverse so betting on Montour isn't his style. On your end though you're in win-now mode and thus don't want to move Fowler, Vatanen or Lindholm (not that you'd move him otherwise), and before Fowler/Vatanen were maybe movable because your contract situation was very uncertain. Now that it's sorted out you're better off keeping your players.

Still I think Mantha-Montour isn't the worst start to a trade I've heard. I'm personally really high on Mantha so my preference is to keep him but I think the value is relatively fair. I'd be more open to something involving Svechnikov though. We'll be able to figure out if Mantha or Svech was the person of interest for your scouts if they're at the next Wings or Griffins game. I almost want a trade to happen after we've spent so long with good trade ideas.

If we did Svech+ for Montour what would you want the plus to be? My personal evaluation of Svechnikov is that he's going to be a good second line winger. He has size and skill but I don't think he has quite as much offensive potential as Mantha. He's much more physical though and really fits your Getzlaf-Perry mold while of course probably not ending up as skilled as either of those guys (not a knock on Svech as much as them being exceptional hockey players). Thus I think Svech's value is pretty close to Mantha's, so I wouldn't want to add a big piece like a first or anything.

 

[Number1RedWingsFan52]

Duck fans what's Shea Theodores ceiling? Would Mantha+Detroit's 2017 2nd round pick be enough for him. Was just wondering if he could possibly a piece that we could flip to Winnipeg along with other pieces for Trouba.

 

[Go Wings]

LOL What?

If we're talking about pure ceiling, how can you even say this?

Simple how many 6'5 wingers that can score and skate like he can are in the league? Like 2 or 3?

I dont think Montour is bad at all he has lots of talent but if Detroit is moving Mantha I want Theodore for him or if we add to Mantha, Fowler.

 

[Go Wings]

Do tell. What do you think Mantha's ceiling is?

His realistic ceiling?

A 30 to 35 goal 60 point winger.

 

[Go Wings]

And I will say wings and ducks fans have been very fair and civil about their evaluations of each other's teams players and worth.

Despite the teams bitter pasts I feel like our team fan bases get along well on the trade boards.

I have great respect for the Ducks and the talent they have. Their defense and defense prospects are the envy of the league.

 

[BinCookin]

You would be correct if it was 1995. The NHL has changed and so have trade values. Really good prospects don't need to prove much at all anymore to have good trade value. Today's NHL is all about youth and value contracts. Nyquist/Tatar would be less appealing to Anaheim because they cost or will cost a lot more for the foreseeable future. If you think the production you'd get from Tatar/Nyquist would be drastically better than what you'd get from Mantha right now over 82 games and given the same opportunities, I think your nuts. Part of being successful at getting good value from cheap contracts is being able to project. Having a track record is nice but not necessarily required anymore.

Respectfully. No i completely disagree with you.

And yes Nyquist is more valuable than Mantha right now. I dont care about 3 years from now, and neither do the Ducks.
(btw in 3 years, Mantha would be a success if he simply matches Nyquist's output, so ya, he is unproven!)

You are right about cheap young STARS... only there are no Stars in either the ducks or detroit system (McDavid / MacKinnon types)