Friedman: Anaheim and Detroit talking trade?

[Hammettf2b]

Fair enough. The answer is, we aren't really sure. Bieksa has a NMC, so if you take that as a lock, Anaheim could be losing two of Vatanen, Manson, or Fowler. But really, in Anaheim we aren't giving that much weight. He'll be asked to waive, and if he doesn't the expectation is he is bought out. It isn't ideal, if it comes to that, but it would be catastrophically stupid of Anaheim to protect one year of Bieksa over the likes of Manson, Fowler, or Vatanen.

So, that leaves one of Vatanen, Manson, or Fowler. One of them will be exposed, unless Anaheim trades one of them or they work out a deal with Vegas. That assumes Anaheim goes the 7-3-1 route in protecting their players. That may not be the case, but I think that's the assumption we've been making. In that case, I think Manson would be exposed but I also think Anaheim will try to work out a deal for Vegas to pick someone else and they'll sweeten the pot. Bit of a stretch, but that seems to be the general feeling. Lindholm will be protected. That's a given.

That's if everything says the same. I'm not entirely sure that will be the case. I would, previously, have said that Fowler would be moved before the expansion to make things easier for Anaheim. Now, I'm more inclined to think Murray will try to hold on to him, and it might be Vatanen. He's been very underwhelming to start the season. Disappointingly so. If this continues deeper into the season, he may just play his way off the team. Anaheim isn't going to want to be paying him $5m over the next four years if this is the play they'll be getting.

The good news is that Theodore, Larsson, and Montour are exempt. That gives Anaheim a nice cushion if they were to lose a good defenseman to the expansion. That's a nice place to be, in an otherwise tough situation.

Hope that helps.

Would a Vatanen for Tatar/Nyquist type swap be any interest for the Ducks. Would really want to keep Mantha.

 

[Claypool]

This is one of those threads where people try to convince you Mantha is a garbage prospect and has little to no potential but would certainly be willing to take him off your hands for whatever scraps they have in the minors.

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

This is one of those threads where people try to convince you Mantha is a garbage prospect and has little to no potential but would certainly be willing to take him off your hands for whatever scraps they have in the minors.

Yep ca use names like montour larsson and Theodore are scraps

 

[dracom]

This is one of those threads where people try to convince you Mantha is a garbage prospect and has little to no potential but would certainly be willing to take him off your hands for whatever scraps they have in the minors.

Have you actually read the thread?

 

[Yzerman1919*]

So, in this post you've shown ignorance regarding Fowler, and a bias towards Mantha. Mmkay.

Here's my counter: Mantha is 22 and has shown little to nothing at the NHL level.

Do I believe it? Maybe. Who knows. But you can't dispute it. You can try, but there is little to no evidence that Mantha is an NHL player right now. Anaheim isn't trading a much better Fowler for that.

Mantha hasn't had a huge sample in the NHL, correct. I'm not disputing that. He looked fantastic in his sample size though. Us Wings fans were absolutely livid when he get sent down. Our PP numbers doubled when he joined the unit. He is now ripping apart the AHL. He has scored at every level so far, and he is massive. Both of these fit the Ducks style of play. He's young, and has minimal cap hit.

I'm not ignorant for Fowler. I watch Fowler plenty, I enjoy watching Anaheim. They are a very entertaining team to watch, Getzlaf and Perry are beauties and Ritchie is a fun kid to watch.

Cam is a great skater, walks the line, and finds seems with his passes and shots. Something we need more of. He would be the best skating d-man on the team.

Fowler is weak on the puck and in front, and makes boneheaded passes. We have a lot of d-men that are too weak (DDK is huge and is a sissy, Marchenko, Kronwall with his age). Green and Smith are great skaters but make their fair share of boneheaded defensive plays.

My whole point is that saying "Mantha and AA are adds" is a stretch. They are legit pieces to center a deal around.

Thanks for showing everyone you don't know who Fowler is or how he plays and only looks at stats.

Also, Mantha isn't a proven goal scorer in the NHL, which is what we want if we are trading Fowler.

Read above. If this is about "stat watching" you are watching his offensive numbers early this year that will fall back to Earth a bit. I hear Laine is going to put up more goals than Gretzky, Jagr, and Howe. See what I did there.

Fowler would tremendously help the DRW. I'd love to bring him back home. But just because his good start this year doesn't solidify him to a whopping package you guys want because you feel his value has "tremendously" increased since the draft.

 

[jetsfaneh]

Include the Jets

Make this a three way deal. Mantha to the Ducks. Trouba to the Wings. Theodore to the Jets. With the necessary adds to even it all out. Redwings have made Winnipeg offers but don't have what the Jets want. Theodore fits the bill there. Ducks deal from a position of strength and don't lose anyone in their current lineup. Redwings get the hometown RHD they covet. Jets get a LHD Trouba replacement that is expansion draft exempt. I think it makes sense on all sides. With the necessary adds of course. A pick here or there maybe. Not to hijack the thread. But I was expecting the Wings to try and orchestrate a three way trade that would satisfy Chevy.

 

[Sojourn]

Fowler makes bone-headed passes? Of all the criticisms of him, that is one of the worst. He is absolute money with his passing, especially in his own end. His ability to make a short pass that leads to the breakout is one of his greatest assets. That's not an exaggeration. It's Niedermayer-esque.

I'm good with calling him soft. He absolutely can be. He isn't a crease clearer either The former he's been working on, and improving. The latter, well, that isn't his game. But the passing criticism? Wow.

Somehow I get the feeling you saw maybe one or two bad passes, and are extrapolating that as a consistent theme. It isn't.

 

[Yzerman1919*]

Fowler makes bone-headed passes? Of all the criticisms of him, that is one of the worst. He is absolute money with his passing, especially in his own end. His ability to make a short pass that leads to the breakout is one of his greatest assets. That's not an exaggeration. It's Niedermayer-esque.

I'm good with calling him soft. He absolutely can be. He isn't a crease clearer either The former he's been working on, and improving. The latter, well, that isn't his game. But the passing criticism? Wow.

I said he is great at finding seems. Which he is. I'm not knocking on his passing as a whole. I see him make some boneheaded ones sometimes though, aka what we have in Green and Smith. Which is why I don't think we need to be serving up a massive package for him. He has good stats early on this year, I think he will fall back to Earth. He does not play as consistently steady as many top d-men in the league do, hence I don't want to be serving up a massive package.

I'm glad you agree on the rest. Again, I'd love to have Fowler. He'd help us plenty. I just think his weak play on the puck and in front with some hiccups scare me a bit to give up a massive package for.

 

[liquiduck]

I said he is great at finding seems. Which he is. I'm not knocking on his passing as a whole. I see him make some boneheaded ones sometimes though, aka what we have in Green and Smith. Which is why I don't think we need to be serving up a massive package for him. He has good stats early on this year, I think he will fall back to Earth. He does not play as consistently steady as many top d-men in the league do, hence I don't want to be serving up a massive package.

I'm glad you agree on the rest. Again, I'd love to have Fowler. He'd help us plenty. I just think his weak play on the puck and in front with some hiccups scare me a bit to give up a massive package for.

He's been Anaheim best player this season. 24+ minutes a night in a shutdown defensive role on a team in the top 10 in GAA again this season while missing one of their best defenders in Lindholm. He is no way weak defensively. Quite the contrary, he's one of the most trusted defenders on a team loaded with them.

There's now way Mantha or AA are main pieces in a Fowler deal right now. Guy is coming into his prime and playing the best hockey of his career.

 

[Sojourn]

I said he is great at finding seems. Which he is. I'm not knocking on his passing as a whole. I see him make some boneheaded ones sometimes though, aka what we have in Green and Smith. Which is why I don't think we need to be serving up a massive package for him. He has good stats early on this year, I think he will fall back to Earth. He does not play as consistently steady as many top d-men in the league do, hence I don't want to be serving up a massive package.

I'm glad you agree on the rest. Again, I'd love to have Fowler. He'd help us plenty. I just think his weak play on the puck and in front with some hiccups scare me a bit to give up a massive package for.

With that argument, every player makes bone-headed passes. There is no player who doesn't make the occasional mistake. For as much as Fowler handles the puck, and he handles it a lot, the amount of time he makes a mistake with the puck is remarkably low. You're going to see mistakes from any player, and the more they handle the puck, the more likely you are to see a mistake.

I'm not going to deny he can be weak on the puck. He isn't an especially strong player, and he isn't a particularly aggressive one either(see: Vatanen). His skating, and ability to separate himself from opposing players more than makes up for it. Even being a bit weak on the puck, he has a ridiculous ability to escape tight spots. If you give him an inch, he'll turn it into 6 feet. I'd take that over being stronger on the puck, because it's something he can do consistently, and size isn't a factor. A player his size, no matter how strong on the puck he is, will lose battles. But his skating and ability to separate himself? That works against any player.

As for the crease, again, not a big guy. Not a strong player. Vatanen is feisty as hell, and he can't clear the crease if his life depended on it. I'd actually prefer that he not get locked up with players, because if there is a loose puck he's the guy who can get to it. He's better off trying to take away their stick, but keeping himself available.

But the bottom line is that Mantha isn't going to get you a Cam Fowler. Fowler, at 24, is the type of player(albeit at a different position) that you'd hope Mantha becomes. An equivalent forward. That puts all the risk on Anaheim, because even if Mantha turns out great, Detroit would be guaranteed to get a great player in the deal. Anaheim would be the one taking the chance. So, yes. You'd be adding to Mantha. Probably a fair bit. That isn't an outrageous statement. An established high end player is worth more than high end potential. It's worth a lot more. That doesn't mean Mantha sucks, or is some toss in. No one is saying that, just so we're clear, but at 22 Mantha isn't exactly a sure thing.

 

[Pavels Dog]

I think the thing with Montour is hes a right handed offensive dmen which is kinda a position that is tough to find, just for powerplays alone its a big part.

I don't think we over rate him I think the market for right handed offensive dmen is very small.

Agreed. But just like good offensive RHD are rare, so are 6'5'' goalscorers. Anyway I think a Mantha/Montour swap simply doesn't make a whole lot of sense for either team. Both teams likely want someone more proven. I think a Nyquist/Tatar for Vatanen swap makes more sense if Anaheim feels comfortable that Montour can come in and replace Vatanen.

 

[liquiduck]

Agreed. But just like good offensive RHD are rare, so are 6'5'' goalscorers. Anyway I think a Mantha/Montour swap simply doesn't make a whole lot of sense for either team. Both teams likely want someone more proven. I think a Nyquist/Tatar for Vatanen swap makes more sense if Anaheim feels comfortable that Montour can come in and replace Vatanen.

A Vatanen for Tatar/Swap doesn't make much sense for Anaheim right now either.
Nor would do I think that either of Tatar or Nyquist would be the best offer where he available.

 

[Bfreezy40]

I could see this being Fowler+ for one of there young forwards+ more!

 

[Doug Gilmour]

Make this a three way deal. Mantha to the Ducks. Trouba to the Wings. Theodore to the Jets. With the necessary adds to even it all out. Redwings have made Winnipeg offers but don't have what the Jets want. Theodore fits the bill there. Ducks deal from a position of strength and don't lose anyone in their current lineup. Redwings get the hometown RHD they covet. Jets get a LHD Trouba replacement that is expansion draft exempt. I think it makes sense on all sides. With the necessary adds of course. A pick here or there maybe. Not to hijack the thread. But I was expecting the Wings to try and orchestrate a three way trade that would satisfy Chevy.

This actually makes sense as a base.

WIN gets: Theodore + a pick/prospect from DET

DET gets: Trouba + cap dump (Trouba is worth more than other 2 involved)

ANA gets: Mantha + a pick/prospect from WIN

 

[styleisle]

This actually makes sense as a base.

WIN gets: Theodore + a pick/prospect from DET

DET gets: Trouba + cap dump (Trouba is worth more than other 2 involved)

ANA gets: Mantha + a pick/prospect from WIN

Except Detroit can't do this because of the salary cap.

 

[OilTastic]

Totally agree that Fowler isn't getting dealt now, But it wouldn't surprise me if he doesn't get traded around draft time.

depends on whether or not the Ducks start winning like they are capable of. if not i can absolutely see them trading one of their d-men for some scoring help.

 

[crowi]

depends on whether or not the Ducks start winning like they are capable of. if not i can absolutely see them trading one of their d-men for some scoring help.

Fowler as he is playing right now isn't available. GM said that too. Ducks will take their time and deal a dman if it's necessary, currently it's not.

 

[Go Wings]

I would be interested in Fowler, Larsson, Vatanen or Theodore. I have zero interest in Montour and Mantha is worth more than him.

 

[crowi]

I would be interested in Fowler, Larsson, Vatanen or Theodore. I have zero interest in Montour and Mantha is worth more than him.

I would like to hear why Mantha is worth more, but overall I agree. If a trade was going to happen, it would've happened before Lindholm was signed.

 

[liquiduck]

I would be interested in Fowler, Larsson, Vatanen or Theodore. I have zero interest in Montour and Mantha is worth more than him.

Based on what? Montour is actually scoring at a higher rate than Mantha in his AHL career as a defensemen.

 

[Ducks Nation*]

I rank Montour higher than Theodore but I am the few I am sure.

Montour has been just as good defensively as Theodore in the A. Montour is so electrifying. Similar to Ghost. It's not even surprising anymore when he gets 10 SOG in a game.

 

[Hammettf2b]

I would like to hear why Mantha is worth more, but overall I agree. If a trade was going to happen, it would've happened before Lindholm was signed.

I think a trade would happen just for the fact that the Ducks wouldn't want to lose a guy in the expansion draft for nothing. Not saying it would be a major trade or anything though.

 

[Ducks in a row]

it's probably something involving Fowler for Mantha, but who knows? it could be anyone.

No it probably isn't Fowler for Mantha.

the ducks are not trading cam fowler that ship has sailed.

Yea don't see Fowler being traded now.

Mantha+Tatar for Fowler and a pick.

Before start of the season sure not now most likely.

Theodore seems like the fairer ask from our side.

Theodore + Mahura for Mantha would be what I would hope Holland would push for.

Pushing for something that won't happen doesn't go over well.

Mantha in a package deal for Fowler might work.

No it won't not before and not now with Fowler looking better then ever.

That is the add

If you are taking Lindholm sure!

You laugh and that then say if talking Lindholm sure

That was the sarcasm. Of course he isn't. I also don't trust you "since" since and sense are two different terms. Mantha or AA as an "add" is a joke. They are a main piece without a doubt. If you watch them often enough you would know why. Fowler is a great offensive d-man, but he kind of sucks in his own end. He isn't worth a boatload package you might want.



Right you are in win now mode but don't want a proven goal scorer at every level so far who is 6'5" when Anaheim needs offense. His salary hit is almost nothing at this point also which is a concern of yours too.

They are not the main piece without a doubt. Fowler isn't a great offensive defenseman he is a good two-way defenseman he doesn't suck in his own end. Hero chart looker is what you sound like regarding Fowler.

Win now mode team doesn't trade Fowler for him unless he was a add in.

We protect Lindholm,Fowler, Vats and have Bieksa either waive his NMC or get bought out. Leaves Despres and Manson exposed.

Pay Las Vegas not to take Manson

I could see this being Fowler+ for one of there young forwards+ more!

Unless that young forward is Eichel (who Sabres won't consider trading) or Reinhart no young forward we would trade Fowler for from the Sabres.

I would be interested in Fowler, Larsson, Vatanen or Theodore. I have zero interest in Montour and Mantha is worth more than him.

Mantha being worth more then Montour is speculation and we know how much young defenseman are worth compared to wingers so...

 

[Yzerman1919*]

With that argument, every player makes bone-headed passes. There is no player who doesn't make the occasional mistake. For as much as Fowler handles the puck, and he handles it a lot, the amount of time he makes a mistake with the puck is remarkably low. You're going to see mistakes from any player, and the more they handle the puck, the more likely you are to see a mistake.

I'm not going to deny he can be weak on the puck. He isn't an especially strong player, and he isn't a particularly aggressive one either(see: Vatanen). His skating, and ability to separate himself from opposing players more than makes up for it. Even being a bit weak on the puck, he has a ridiculous ability to escape tight spots. If you give him an inch, he'll turn it into 6 feet. I'd take that over being stronger on the puck, because it's something he can do consistently, and size isn't a factor. A player his size, no matter how strong on the puck he is, will lose battles. But his skating and ability to separate himself? That works against any player.

As for the crease, again, not a big guy. Not a strong player. Vatanen is feisty as hell, and he can't clear the crease if his life depended on it. I'd actually prefer that he not get locked up with players, because if there is a loose puck he's the guy who can get to it. He's better off trying to take away their stick, but keeping himself available.

But the bottom line is that Mantha isn't going to get you a Cam Fowler. Fowler, at 24, is the type of player(albeit at a different position) that you'd hope Mantha becomes. An equivalent forward. That puts all the risk on Anaheim, because even if Mantha turns out great, Detroit would be guaranteed to get a great player in the deal. Anaheim would be the one taking the chance. So, yes. You'd be adding to Mantha. Probably a fair bit. That isn't an outrageous statement. An established high end player is worth more than high end potential. It's worth a lot more. That doesn't mean Mantha sucks, or is some toss in. No one is saying that, just so we're clear, but at 22 Mantha isn't exactly a sure thing.

Well then hey, we'll agree to disagree, but more agreeing haha. He makes a few too many for my liking for a big "package."

My whole point was someone called Mantha an "add." Mantha isn't an "add" as suggested. Mantha would be an add in a deal for a PK Subban, NOT Fowler.

 

[Ducks in a row]

Well then hey, we'll agree to disagree, but more agreeing haha. He makes a few too many for my liking for a big "package."

My whole point was someone called Mantha an "add." Mantha isn't an "add" as suggested. Mantha would be an add in a deal for a PK Subban, NOT Fowler.

Mantha wouldn't be a add for P.K. Subban because Predators wouldn't trade him for what Red Wings have. Mantha being a add in for Fowler would be a whole lot more realistic. If Red Wings fans are not happy with Mantha as a add in for Fowler then your not getting Fowler unless you would consider Larkin being traded away which I know Red Wings fans wouldn't.