An idea to remove the cap advantage for no tax states

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Golden_Jet

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Sep 21, 2005
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I am not sure where he found his numbers.

Here’s the article I referenced: NHL free agency shows teams in states with no income tax have an advantage

After a brief search on Alan P - he seems to have been writing papers for years on tax disparities. I just got educated on the “Alberta tax” and just read a paper on Brian Gionta and the tax implications he faced when signing in MTL.

I’ll be honest, read more about taxes in the last 2 hours than I care to admit lol.

I miss pure hockey trades, the days before us fans debated player salaries and tax rates. And Don Cherry. I miss that guy.
Well it was poorly written by the author to be fair.
The numbers used are if Reinhardt plays 82 games in Florida.

Averaging out Reinhart’s salary to US$8.625-million annually, he owes US$3.15-million in taxes in Florida. He would pay US$1.1-million more in California, US$1.5-million more in New York and US$1.4-million more in Toronto, according to a calculator provided publicly by Cardinal Point Athlete Advisors.

Doubles down on stupid by assuming he plays all 8 years of games in Florida.

Over the length of the contract that could save him up to US$12-million.
 

Bust

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Well it was poorly written by the author to be fair.
The numbers used are if Reinhardt plays 82 games in Florida.

Averaging out Reinhart’s salary to US$8.625-million annually, he owes US$3.15-million in taxes in Florida. He would pay US$1.1-million more in California, US$1.5-million more in New York and US$1.4-million more in Toronto, according to a calculator provided publicly by Cardinal Point Athlete Advisors.

Doubles down on stupid by assuming he plays all 8 years of games in Florida.

Over the length of the contract that could save him up to US$12-million.

You could definitely be correct, hard to believe those are Alan P’s numbers and is probably likely the author of the article went rouge on the calculator. I’d assume Alan has accurate info based on his pedigree.
 

WhiskeyYerTheDevils

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No I said that a Points percentage approach would be a larger sample so we can dig into it further.

Depending on how you view “success” in this League. Playoffs vs Regular season, both ways of looking at it can be valid. Traditionally people peg Cup wins as the be all success marker of a franchise.

Your results and your method I will need to look at before forming my final opinion.
If you just want to cherry pick data to fit the result you're looking for, you're free to do that. The fact of the matter is that for the first 15 years of the cap era, no tax free team won the cup.

Well it was poorly written by the author to be fair.
The numbers used are if Reinhardt plays 82 games in Florida.

Averaging out Reinhart’s salary to US$8.625-million annually, he owes US$3.15-million in taxes in Florida. He would pay US$1.1-million more in California, US$1.5-million more in New York and US$1.4-million more in Toronto, according to a calculator provided publicly by Cardinal Point Athlete Advisors.

Doubles down on stupid by assuming he plays all 8 years of games in Florida.

Over the length of the contract that could save him up to US$12-million.
It's embarrassing that that sort of garbage gets published.
 

benfranklin

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Give an extra $5m to the bottom 30% of the league that are the undesirable cities. I cant name them because apparently that is trolling, even though there is actual economic and/or climate factors behind most of them.
 

Beukeboom Fan

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Well it was poorly written by the author to be fair.
The numbers used are if Reinhardt plays 82 games in Florida.

Averaging out Reinhart’s salary to US$8.625-million annually, he owes US$3.15-million in taxes in Florida. He would pay US$1.1-million more in California, US$1.5-million more in New York and US$1.4-million more in Toronto, according to a calculator provided publicly by Cardinal Point Athlete Advisors.

Doubles down on stupid by assuming he plays all 8 years of games in Florida.

Over the length of the contract that could save him up to US$12-million.
Thanks for finding that GJ! Absolutely ridiculous to me that someone could publish something like that which is COMPLETELY misleading and expect to be taken seriously. So "assuming he only plays home games in FLA" he's going to save $1.4M! Did Reinhart pull a Bob Probert and wasn't allowed to leave the state for "Department of Corrections" reasons?
 

JPT

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Thanks for finding that GJ! Absolutely ridiculous to me that someone could publish something like that which is COMPLETELY misleading and expect to be taken seriously. So "assuming he only plays home games in FLA" he's going to save $1.4M! Did Reinhart pull a Bob Probert and wasn't allowed to leave the state for "Department of Corrections" reasons?
He's a consultant. He's supposed to be misleading while expecting to be taken seriously.
 

BlueBaron

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May 29, 2006
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One thing I do note for the historical record: these scapegoat threads used to be about the crime of revenue sharing, and how Group B should be allowed to die so that Group A could maximize their economic advantages.

Once all 32 teams became financially self sufficient, we have a very sudden and enthusiastic pivot to talking about how Group A should get tax bonuses because the economics aren’t fair. Funny how that worked out.



It’s not legal. Workers get taxed individually, not as a collective. They can decide to have taxes withheld from their paychecks by the government as a sort of advance payment, but the employer can’t be the one doing the withholding and paying-out of taxes.
Interesting. The thing is they could just lump it under union dues. I'll wager anyone can pay your taxes as long as they pay the right amount and have consent.
 

Hockey Outsider

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Jan 16, 2005
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Well it was poorly written by the author to be fair.
The numbers used are if Reinhardt plays 82 games in Florida.

Averaging out Reinhart’s salary to US$8.625-million annually, he owes US$3.15-million in taxes in Florida. He would pay US$1.1-million more in California, US$1.5-million more in New York and US$1.4-million more in Toronto, according to a calculator provided publicly by Cardinal Point Athlete Advisors.

Doubles down on stupid by assuming he plays all 8 years of games in Florida.

Over the length of the contract that could save him up to US$12-million.
I just double checked these calculations. They've been oversimplified, to the point of being meaningless. The calculation is based on the player having no deductions, and all of their income is sourced to a single state. That isn't how this works in practice (most players would have at least a few deductions, and professional athletes have to pay tax in multiple jurisdictions).

(Technical note #1 - I'm not even sure how they got their numbers for New York. They might be factoring in New York City's income tax, based on the unspoken assumption that someone for the Rangers/Islanders has to live in the city).

(Technical note #2 - as far as I can tell, the author didn't even bother to convert USD to CAD when calculating the taxes for Ontario. It's not even an apples to apples comparison).
 

tarheelhockey

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Oh no. The Canadian teams that generate a ton of revenue who's teams are in the worst weather locations, have higher taxes, higher cost of living and overall worse government than the USA are offering UFA’s side jobs to make up the difference.

Endorsement deals don’t just materialize from nothing. These guys actually have to earn this money by doing commercials/radio/ads. This isn’t free money being handed out.

But endorsements in Toronto and NYC are worth a lot more than endorsements in Raleigh and Utah.

Do you think Trouba of all people is on an AstraZenica commercial every 10 minutes during the Finals if he plays for the Blues? Of course not.

Those are uniquely profitable opportunities that aren’t the same from market to market. They represent income distributed unequally. Since we’re tinkering with the cap based on unequal taxation, we should go ahead and deduct the value of Trouba’s commercial contract from the Rangers’ cap, right?

Oh, and there’s no way Auston Matthews is a two-time EA cover athlete if he’s playing for his hometown Coyotes. Not a chance in hell he gets that revenue stream outside of Toronto. Time to dock the Leafs’ cap for the value of that opportunity, right?

And Connor McDavid… oh my. Imagine how much side cash he’s making because he’s in that TV market. Can’t imagine the Oilers would be too happy about taking a red pen to their salary cap based on all that extra income he’s making. But hey… fair’s fair!

We can just go through everyone’s finances with a fine-toothed comb and see how it balances out in the end. All in the name of fairness.

Seems like the consensus here is that only small market teams are allowed cap advantages.

Market size isn’t a part of this at all. This topic is specifically about a subset of fans trying to convince the rest of the league that they deserve a different set of rules. But only in one specific category where it advantages them the most!
 

TheNumber4

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If you just want to cherry pick data to fit the result you're looking for, you're free to do that. The fact of the matter is that for the first 15 years of the cap era, no tax free team won the cup.


It's embarrassing that that sort of garbage gets published.
It’s not cherry picked data. You are only characterizing it as that cause you ignored now on two occasions the reasoning as to why looking at the immature, fresh hard cap market era would make less sense than more recent history.

And also ignored that there are different definitions of success in this League.
 

x Tame Impala

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Because at the end of the day we’re talking about a sport. A sport with so many variables that we can’t look at 1 simple thing and determine an outcome.

That doesn’t take away the fact that there’s teams with more buying power than others. Even if it’s slight.
The entire point of our counter-argument is that there are many advantages some teams have over others. To single out income tax rate is narrow minded and ignores these other factors because it doesn't fit this Canadian narrative that the league is stacked against you. It's a non-solution to a non-problem. It's a meathead argument from the beginning and people posting Brian Burke's opinions on this is really all the argument I need.
 

tarheelhockey

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Yes for sure, and to be clear, I’m not suggesting I have the answers. Tax is not an area one can comfortably dabble in. You make a fair point, and perhaps endorsement deals are something that needs to be examined as well because they can be quite lucrative. I’ll leave it to brighter minds to determine whether a fix is needed, and what that fix would ultimately look like.

I do think there might be a bit of a distinction, though, between tax status and endorsement money. Taxes are imposed at the state level and have a far more immediate impact on the contractual relationship between the player and their employer (the team).

With endorsements, the player is presumably being compensated by a third party under a separate contract for services, that involves the team more or less tangentially. Different players on the same hockey club may disproportionately benefit from the availability of endorsement opportunities. Others might turn down endorsement deals that take too much of their time or offer too little, or they might not want to endorse products on the side for personal reasons. It just strikes me as a somewhat more nuanced area to regulate, much like other factors baked into a particular destination or market (housing, cost of living, healthcare, education, etc). Maybe I'm wrong. I've never actually seen an endorsement contract, how they structured, and so forth.

Different markets offer different advantages, and I suppose the more fundamental question is whether the NHL should attempt to regulate those advantages in the interest of parity, and if they do, where they should draw the line (how granular do they want to get)


I would submit that taxes are just as nuanced and difficult to quantify as supplemental income. State income taxes are only one of many factors which also include local taxes (which can vary by zip code), tac brackets, international considerations, etc etc etc.
 
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Golden_Jet

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It’s not cherry picked data. You are only characterizing it as that cause you ignored now on two occasions the reasoning as to why looking at the immature, fresh hard cap market era would make less sense than more recent history.

And also ignored that there are different definitions of success in this League.
They’re all hard cap data lol.

Last 10 years and last 20 years.

Good teams and bad teams are cyclical, shocking.
Must enjoy arguing with yourself.
 

triggrman

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They freeze their asses off at football games in Nashville, just not in October.
Not in 2 more years :cool:

1720559785375.png
 
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Minnesota Knudsens

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I’ve never understood why any athlete would not want to play in Tampa or Vegas, unless maybe they thought it would dull their competitive edge.

Having said that we’re seeing players take discounts to play for the Oil, just because they believe so much in McD. Dallas, Florida, Tampa etc are good teams right now, so it’s difficult to separate the “tax variable” from other variables, such as winning games or media scrutiny.
 

Viqsi

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No I said that a Points percentage approach would be a larger sample so we can dig into it further.

Depending on how you view “success” in this League. Playoffs vs Regular season, both ways of looking at it can be valid. Traditionally people peg Cup wins as the be all success marker of a franchise.

Your results and your method I will need to look at before forming my final opinion.
 

TheNumber4

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Nov 11, 2011
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They’re all hard cap data lol.

Last 10 years and last 20 years.

Good teams and bad teams are cyclical, shocking.
Must enjoy arguing with yourself.
Data needs context. If an insignificant amount of contracts were signed by the No tax teams (only 4 existed back then), then using the early salary cap era numbers actually obscurs the data and makes it worse.
 
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