An actual breakdown on taxes per team

[edog37]

How do people not read. HRR is for certainty. You don’t need every team to have the same cap any more than you need every player to have thr same cap on a team. The teams budget is still certain.

1.) the cap is implemented equally across all teams specifically for parity. There are multiple articles from Bettman that he prides himself on creating parity through his cap structure.

2.) the NHL is under no obligation to correct for any Market advantage/disadvantage. Ie. weather endorsements etc. but they chose to artificially impose parity.
If you choose to artificially impose something you have to make it fair.

No you don’t. Life isn’t fair, so time to stop the incessant whining.

And the cap was implemented for economic certainty. Bettman said this repeatedly during the lockout & it’s well documented. This is what united the owners back then & continues to this day.

 

[Legion34]

No you don’t. Life isn’t fair, so time to stop the incessant whining.

And the cap was implemented for economic certainty. Bettman said this repeatedly during the lockout & it’s well documented. This is what united the owners back then & continues to this day.

no. He didn’t. He said linkage was for certainty. The equal cap implementation was for parity. He said it at the time and continued to talk about it 20’yewre later.

I posted multiple articles where Bettman specifically says this.

Just admit you are ok with certain teams that couldn’t compete in natural free market now getting unfair advantages.

Instead of just being blatantly wrong

 

[CTHabsfan]

no. He didn’t. He said linkage was for certainty. The equal cap implementation was for parity. He said it at the time and continued to talk about it 20’yewre later.

I posted multiple articles where Bettman specifically says this.

Just admit you are ok with certain teams that couldn’t compete in natural free market now getting unfair advantages.

Instead of just being blatantly wrong

Just admit you are a fan of a big-market team and you'd like your team to have the ability to buy a Stanley Cup.

 

[Golden_Jet]

1.) you have no idea if he is able to claim that. You have to show greater financial ties to US than Canada. Which means that you have to
-have more days in us
-have no property in Canada (including long term lease/car/kids in school or girlfriend/boyfriend with shared assets).
-Canadian endorsements.
-public appearances. Etc.


That is in no way comparable to a blanket here is your money like the current tax breaks.

But yes. Sure. Absolutely equalize any systematic advantages. Especially the ones that are clearly shown to lead to players openly acknowledging taking less.

Which has not been proven to be the case with Matthews in your million hoops he had to run through.

Wrong he claims it,
There was also a couple of articles on it, one saying he will be last minute coming in for training camp, because of the number of days.
He meets all the requirements

 

[Legion34]

Wrong he claims it,

ummmmm prove it? Show me where he has said he does this.

Even if he had in the past.

Again. He has to prove it every year. And it’s subject to dispute. Like Tavares singing bonus from 6 years ago.

This is in no way comparable to just straight up money in hand. To do this he would have to regulate days in a country. Leases. Relationships. Endorsements etc.

Just a ridiculous comparison that you have no proof of

 

[Golden_Jet]

ummmmm prove it? Show me where he has said he does this.

Even if he had in the past.

Again. He has to prove it every year. And it’s subject to dispute. Like Tavares singing bonus from 6 years ago.

This is in no way comparable to just straight up money in hand. To do this he would have to regulate days in a country. Leases. Relationships. Endorsements etc.

Just a ridiculous comparison that you have no proof of

Look at the thread the other day, half a dozen posters telling you, you were wrong,

But kept repeatedly doubling down on being wrong. It’s ok we’re all used to it now.

 

[tucker3434]

ummmmm prove it? Show me where he has said he does this.

Even if he had in the past.

Again. He has to prove it every year. And it’s subject to dispute. Like Tavares singing bonus from 6 years ago.

This is in no way comparable to just straight up money in hand. To do this he would have to regulate days in a country. Leases. Relationships. Endorsements etc.

Just a ridiculous comparison that you have no proof of

Yeah, man. Taxes are hard and we can’t confidently nail down the tax position of one guy. Tax positions are sometimes uncertain right up until filing (after the income has been earned). Adding 735 more guys to the cap calculation is a nightmare.

 

[Legion34]

Look at the thread the other day, half a dozen posters telling you, you were wrong,

But kept repeatedly doubling down on being wrong. It’s ok we’re all used to it now.

Half a dozen posters who claimed vague references to tax cheating and said Tavares was going to make more. Only for him to be charged.

The ones who lied about Bettman not mentioning parity? Despite articles quoting him.

Again. Show me a single article where Matthews says he does this.

Or agents/gms/media or examples of us players taking less to play in Canada for tax benifets?

us born Jeff Petrys agent was quoted in an article about how much more he pays in Montreal. Why wasn’t that in the article?

Tons of US players play for Toronto over the years. Name one that took less or said they make more using all these fancy loopholes that random posters swear exist

US born Toronto GM Burke said Matthews would make more money in the us due to taxes. A Harvard educated lawyer who was the GM of the team didn’t know us hockey players/gms make more in Canada?

That’s odd?

Yeah, man. Taxes are hard and we can’t confidently nail down the tax position of one guy. Tax positions are sometimes uncertain right up until filing (after the income has been earned). Adding 735 more guys to the cap calculation is a nightmare.

Yes. So equalize the starting point. And let players fend for themselves.

Pretty simple

 

[tucker3434]

Half a dozen posters who claimed vague references to tax cheating and said Tavares was going to make more. Only for him to be charged.

The ones who lied about Bettman not mentioning parity? Despite articles quoting him.

Again. Show me a single article where Matthews says he does this.

Or agents/gms/media or examples of us players taking less to play in Canada for tax benifets?

us born Jeff Petrys agent was quoted in an article about how much more he pays in Montreal. Why wasn’t that in the article?

Tons of US players play for Toronto over the years. Name one that took less or said they make more using all these fancy loopholes that random posters swear exist

US born Toronto GM Burke said Matthews would make more money in the us due to taxes. A Harvard educated lawyer who was the GM of the team didn’t know us hockey players/gms make more in Canada?

That’s odd?



Yes. So equalize the starting point. And let players fend for themselves.

Pretty simple

They did. That’s what else have now.

 

[Legion34]

They did. That’s what else have now.

Nope. They have not at all accounted for the clear systemic advantage that is openly acknowledged by players/agents/gms and accountants

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Yeah, man. Taxes are hard and we can’t confidently nail down the tax position of one guy. Tax positions are sometimes uncertain right up until filing (after the income has been earned). Adding 735 more guys to the cap calculation is a nightmare.

Agreed.

It's hard for me to believe that anyone who thinks the league should use players' individual after-tax income for the cap has ever done or knows anything about taxes.

 

[dekelikekocur]

Nope. They have not at all accounted for the clear systemic advantage that is openly acknowledged by players/agents/gms and accountants

Playing field is equal, players fend for themselves for taxation and tax avoidance. They aren't going to write 32 rule books. One set of rules, everyone deals with it.

Your drivel has gone on and on and all you do is double down and make erroneous claims instead of owning the fact that you root for teams with shitty management and ownership. 57 years and counting for the Leafs, 31 years and counting for the Habs, rest of the Canadian teams don't even matter.

76 teams have made the conf finals since the cap was put in place, 17 of those times were teams from states w/o state income tax.

 

[tucker3434]

Nope. They have not at all accounted for the clear systemic advantage that is openly acknowledged by players/agents/gms and accountants

That’s asking for it to end at the same place, not begin at the same place.

If any of you guys could present the actual plan to “fix” it, we can debate it but I don’t think any of you guys have the sophistication to even know what you’re asking for. Or just copy someone else’s work. You say you’ve got so many articles about how it’s unfair. Send us one written by somebody with appropriate technical knowledge that’s not just complaining but presents a solution. I’ve never seen an argument from anyone that appeared to have a good grasp on even the basics of tax.

 

[Richard]

You can manage taxes, even in Canada, but you lose liquidity on a lot of your money versus the States. That's huge. You can to put away a lot in some sort of retirement fund from my recollection.

Here it is just your money. It's a huge difference.

Give me MY money now thank you

 

[Golden_Jet]

Tons of US players play for Toronto over the years. Name one that took less or said they make more using all these fancy loopholes that random posters swear exist

How many of those US born players got 95% signing bonus, that’s what you need.

 

[DistantThunderRep]

You can manage taxes, even in Canada, but you lose liquidity on a lot of your money versus the States. That's huge. You can to put away a lot in some sort of retirement fund from my recollection.

Here it is just your money. It's a huge difference.

Give me MY money now thank you

RCA's in Canada are a huge tax avoidance for athletes in Canada. The NBA banned the Raptors from using them for players because it was determined to be an unfair advantage to the Raptors. Guess what the NHL didn't do?

How many of those US born players got 95% signing bonus, that’s what you need.

Being from a rich team that can offer a majority Signing Bonus contract is fairness for the NHL, state tax structure out of the control of the NHL is unfair and cheating.

 

[Richard]

Yes yes thats it -- then you borrow against it to get liquidity.

You still pay the tax, just at the end, on the original contribution. I would just rather have my money.

 

[HisNoodliness]

Okay, just for fun, let's pretend that there is a problem here and that we want to fix it.

I think the only actual way to enforce parity in these situations is to decouple money and talent. We assume that we can enforce parity with a salary cap, but if that doesn't work, let's actually enforce talent parity.

At the end of every season we measure each player's game score value added (or some other metric) and require that before the next season each team gets their value to within 10% of the league average. If your new young player totally pops off that's great, but now you're too good so you have to move someone.

Obviously a terrible idea, but this is pretty much what people are pretending to advocate for.

 

[DistantThunderRep]

Okay, just for fun, let's pretend that there is a problem here and that we want to fix it.

I think the only actual way to enforce parity in these situations is to decouple money and talent. We assume that we can enforce parity with a salary cap, but if that doesn't work, let's actually enforce talent parity.

At the end of every season we measure each player's game score value added (or some other metric) and require that before the next season each team gets their value to within 10% of the league average. If your new young player totally pops off that's great, but now you're too good so you have to move someone.

Obviously a terrible idea, but this is pretty much what people are pretending to advocate for.

I think the easiest way to do it is get rid of the ability of giving Bonuses to players. They get their total salary as salary and once Jock Tax is taken into account, the variance of wages earned vs taxed becomes a lot lower.

 

[Legion34]

That’s asking for it to end at the same place, not begin at the same place.

If any of you guys could present the actual plan to “fix” it, we can debate it but I don’t think any of you guys have the sophistication to even know what you’re asking for. Or just copy someone else’s work. You say you’ve got so many articles about how it’s unfair. Send us one written by somebody with appropriate technical knowledge that’s not just complaining but presents a solution. I’ve never seen an argument from anyone that appeared to have a good grasp on even the basics of tax.

Why?
That’s silly.

Did you present an actual plan for the cap now? Could any person here have come up
With it?

Does that mean the cap could not possibly have happened?

Can you build an iPhone? If 12 people on the internet don’t know how to do it. I mean I guess smart phones can’t possibly exist.

I think the easiest way to do it is get rid of the ability of giving Bonuses to players. They get their total salary as salary and once Jock Tax is taken into account, the variance of wages earned vs taxed becomes a lot lower.

That would do some of it for sure.
Or have players cap hit be accounted for with bonuses.

The player can still take the money as bonus. But cap hit could be adjusted by bonus.

 

[CTHabsfan]

us born Jeff Petrys agent was quoted in an article about how much more he pays in Montreal. Why wasn’t that in the article?

US born Toronto GM Burke said Matthews would make more money in the us due to taxes. A Harvard educated lawyer who was the GM of the team didn’t know us hockey players/gms make more in Canada?

US born Jeff Petry twice chose to sign with the Canadiens rather than sign somewhere with lower taxes. US born Auston Matthews signed a contract extension with the Maple Leafs rather than becoming a free agent as quickly as possible so he could play somewhere with lower taxes.

It's almost as if taxes aren't the only thing that matters to some guys!

 

[Legion34]

Okay, just for fun, let's pretend that there is a problem here and that we want to fix it.

I think the only actual way to enforce parity in these situations is to decouple money and talent. We assume that we can enforce parity with a salary cap, but if that doesn't work, let's actually enforce talent parity.

At the end of every season we measure each player's game score value added (or some other metric) and require that before the next season each team gets their value to within 10% of the league average. If your new young player totally pops off that's great, but now you're too good so you have to move someone.

Obviously a terrible idea, but this is pretty much what people are pretending to advocate for.

Not really.
Cap hit is an

RCA's in Canada are a huge tax avoidance for athletes in Canada. The NBA banned the Raptors from using them for players because it was determined to be an unfair advantage to the Raptors. Guess what the NHL didn't do?


Being from a rich team that can offer a majority Signing Bonus contract is fairness for the NHL, state tax structure out of the control of the NHL is unfair and cheating.

1.) Nope. Wrong. You are comparing different sports with different residencies. Time in country and retirement countries.

You have NO proof at all of any NHL player ever using RCAs to lower income ever. It doesn’t work that way in Canadian markets where you play 60% of your games in Canada.

2.) all teams are allowed to provide the exact same signing bonuses. They choose not to.

All teams are not allowed to provide 37% tax rates or pay extra taxes for players.

Of course you pretend you can’t see the difference

US born Jeff Petry twice chose to sign with the Canadiens rather than sign somewhere with lower taxes. US born Auston Matthews signed a contract extension with the Maple Leafs rather than becoming a free agent as quickly as possible so he could play somewhere with lower taxes.

It's almost as if taxes aren't the only thing that matters to some guys!

No one said it was? But it is an absolute factor in players signing for less. Allowing a cap advantage.

That’s the whole point. Petrys own agent said it was a factor but he chose to go with Montreal (probably because they made up the tax difference in salary).

Radulov had the same offer in Montreal and Dallas. And he chose Dallas for taxes.

 

[CTHabsfan]

Radulov had the same offer in Montreal and Dallas. And he chose Dallas for taxes.

Really? I don't remember that being the case, so I looked up an article on his signing with Dallas. No mention was made of taxes..... Stars’ Alexander Radulov opens up about departure from Canadiens

 

[DistantThunderRep]

Not really.
Cap hit is an


1.) Nope. Wrong. You are comparing different sports with different residencies. Time in country and retirement countries.

You have NO proof at all of any NHL player ever using RCAs to lower income ever. It doesn’t work that way in Canadian markets where you play 60% of your games in Canada.

2.) all teams are allowed to provide the exact same signing bonuses. They choose not to.

All teams are not allowed to provide 37% tax rates or pay extra taxes for players.

Of course you pretend you can’t see the difference



No one said it was? But it is an absolute factor in players signing for less. Allowing a cap advantage.

That’s the whole point. Petrys own agent said it was a factor but he chose to go with Montreal (probably because they made up the tax difference in salary).

Radulov had the same offer in Montreal and Dallas. And he chose Dallas for taxes.

The RCA: Helping Professional Hockey Players Pay Substantially Less Income Tax - GBL

Taxes are said to be one of the things that are certain in life, and professional hockey players sure do pay a lot of them. As the National Hockey League (NHL) crowns the Colorado Avalanche as the 2022 Stanley Cup Champions, this signals the start of an off-season where players will have the...

gblinc.ca

Seriously...just stop. NHL players use the RCA. Its even in Tavares' lawsuit that he uses the RCA. Please, just stop.

The RCA: Helping Professional Hockey Players Pay Substantially Less Income Tax - GBL

Taxes are said to be one of the things that are certain in life, and professional hockey players sure do pay a lot of them. As the National Hockey League (NHL) crowns the Colorado Avalanche as the 2022 Stanley Cup Champions, this signals the start of an off-season where players will have the...

gblinc.ca

Seriously...just stop. NHL players use the RCA. Its even in Tavares' lawsuit that he uses the RCA. Please, just stop.

If players don't do this, they are f***ing idiots and deserve to take home less money.

EDIT:

https://ca.rbcwealthmanagement.com/documents/17271/17295/Reitrement+Compensation+Arrangements+%28RCAs%29%20for+NHL.pdf/2588c228-c37c-4cfa-8307-4c39321769b9

How pro athletes and other high earners stick-handle high Canadian income taxes

A special vehicle called an RCA helps high earners spread out their income and save on tax

www.theglobeandmail.com

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/1050270/2019/06/27/yes-quebec-has-high-taxes-but-heres-how-the-canadiens-can-level-the-playing-field/

 

[DistantThunderRep]

Not really.
Cap hit is an


1.) Nope. Wrong. You are comparing different sports with different residencies. Time in country and retirement countries.

You have NO proof at all of any NHL player ever using RCAs to lower income ever. It doesn’t work that way in Canadian markets where you play 60% of your games in Canada.

2.) all teams are allowed to provide the exact same signing bonuses. They choose not to.

All teams are not allowed to provide 37% tax rates or pay extra taxes for players.

Of course you pretend you can’t see the difference



No one said it was? But it is an absolute factor in players signing for less. Allowing a cap advantage.

That’s the whole point. Petrys own agent said it was a factor but he chose to go with Montreal (probably because they made up the tax difference in salary).

Radulov had the same offer in Montreal and Dallas. And he chose Dallas for taxes.

Also, just because you have a hard time understanding basic things.

"After receiving the first instalment of the signing bonus — the one payment in dispute — Tavares moved to Toronto and therefore pays Canadian tax at 53.5 per cent on every other penny the contract pays him. And the CRA itself issued an interpretation letter in 1998 confirming the 15 per cent rate, provided a payment is a “true signing bonus.” Taxpayers like Tavares had a right to rely on that guidance.

The difference between a “true signing bonus” and a salary for actually taking the ice may be subtle but if the CRA had misgivings about its 1998 interpretation, it should have put Canadian teams and players on notice years ago. Should Tavares lose in court, other players who received signing bonuses likely will receive CRA assessments for tax and interest and face the risk of double taxation: if they’ve already paid full U.S. tax on the bonus, it may be too late to obtain credit in the U.S. for the additional Canadian tax."

Again problematic of the Government, not the league.