An actual breakdown on taxes per team

[edog37]

Yeah, I always wanted to be a NHL player as a kid so I could live in complete anonymity...

If a player chooses team because of that, just throw him in the fornicating garbage.

So you’re ok with your wife & kids getting constantly harassed because you might have made a bad pass in a big game. Good to know you have your priorities in order.

 

[edog37]

It's not about making excuses. Most of us know it's mostly on the players your draft and aquire, and a lot to extent how high you draft. But that's another separate argument.

Fact is, it should be an even system and can easily be implemented into the salary cap to make things fair and even for everyone. Why people need feel to argue this or get upset? Because they are in the lower taxed states and now feel need to get defensive for some odd reason when they should just agree. Yea, let's make it fair and even. Very simple.

And nobody is saying it's going to automatically help anyone get a cup. But at least it's a level playing field no matter how small or Insignificant you lower taxed state people like to make it out to be. I rather have that extra 3 to 5 million that lowered taxes teams get to spend on an extra player. That's huge.

Or better yet, why don’t you ping your local politicians to create a better tax structure?

 

[DistantThunderRep]

I'm not going to respond and constantly repeat the same thing to people. In @Legion34 case, it's literally been years. He will never understand.

 

[FissionFire]

Does this only account for state taxes or does it take into account other taxes? For example the Nashville “Jock Tax” (I think it was removed but other towns may have something similar) or cities (for example Detroit) that also have a city income tax.

 

[Legion34]

No, rulebooks ensure that teams have the same opportunity to win. Whether they do or not depends on a million factors. All goals counting as one doesn’t mean Canada won’t beat Lithuania by 10 in the Olympics.

A byproduct of a rule could be parity but a fair game and not an even game is the purpose of rules.

You can list me the examples of leagues with salary caps that grant additional space to the richest teams.

I’ve said just a couple posts ago that I wouldn’t mind a luxury tax. That isn’t what the owners wanted. It’s not what we have. If you don’t like this system, blame MLSE, Molson, whoever. They supported its implementation. Having Bettman be your scapegoat is nonsense. He’s just a puppet.

Rulebooks could have certainty without parity.

The rule book could easily in theory say. “The Colorado avalanche have to start 1-0 down” or “all Swedish born players get 3 minute minors instead of 2”.

That could happen. That would be certainty. You would know what the rules were. That is not parity.

Parity/competitive balance is making the rules the same for everyone.

See the difference? You could argue that the current rule book is just about certainty. We know what the rules of the game are/order etc. but parity is a big part of it.

Again. The current cap system has artificially induced parity. Which was a goal. I’m not saying it’s wrong to do. I’m saying it needs to be corrected.

I'm not going to respond and constantly repeat the same thing to people. In @Legion34 case, it's literally been years. He will never understand.

You have been wrong for years. There are literal Bettman quotes where he says that the current cap system was sold as, and continues to be successful because it creates parity.

Your continued misinformation was not helpful and caused me to have to explain the same things over and over

Thank you for this new development

 

[Legion34]

Or better yet, why don’t you ping your local politicians to create a better tax structure?

Because it’s not up to them to correct for poorly run businesses in different countries that can’t turn a profit?

The NHL created an artificial system in the name of parity. It’s on them to make it fair

 

[Golden_Jet]

The rule book could easily in theory say. “The Colorado avalanche have to start 1-0 down” or “all Swedish born players get 3 minute minors instead of 2”.

That could happen.

I’d suggest try living in a reality world.

Your continued misinformation was not helpful and caused me to have to explain the same things over and over

Classic pot meet kettle.

 

[tucker3434]

Rulebooks could have certainty without parity.

The rule book could easily in theory say. “The Colorado avalanche have to start 1-0 down” or “all Swedish born players get 3 minute minors instead of 2”.

That could happen. That would be certainty. You would know what the rules were. That is not parity.

Parity/competitive balance is making the rules the same for everyone.

See the difference? You could argue that the current rule book is just about certainty. We know what the rules of the game are/order etc. but parity is a big part of it.

Again. The current cap system has artificially induced parity. Which was a goal. I’m not saying it’s wrong to do. I’m saying it needs to be corrected.

Ok, I guess. But you recognize that the reason the NHL won’t create an Avs or Swede specific rule is the same reason they won’t unbalance the cap? Regardless of whether parity is a byproduct or the original intent, manufactured disparity is not what the NHL is going to do.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

@Hockey Outsider has a great post about Matthews along the lines of this. Thought I had it saved but hopefully he does.



I believe Matthews is taxed as a resident of Arizona, which saves him a lot.

I made a number of posts on this topic, mostly in 2022 and 2023. I've concluded, as someone with two decades of experience as a tax practitioner, it's not worth my time to argue with (certain) posters here, who don't even understand the basics.

That being said, I'll make three quick comments:

1) It's true that, overall, players in low-tax jurisdictions (like Florida or Texas) will pay less income tax than players in high-tax jurisdictions (like Ontario and Quebec). But, generally speaking, the differences are significantly smaller than simply comparing the top tax rate in each jurisdiction. NHL players typically have a team of accountants, lawyers and financial planners structure their affairs in a way that reduces their tax burden. Plus, "jock taxes" help reduce the differential in tax rates.

2) I see people complain about the differences in tax rates (mostly fans of Canadian teams). But they stay silent about other factors (for example, there's far more opportunity to make money through endorsement in Canada vs the US). Accordingly, it seems that most of the people complaining about tax are looking for an excuse to explain their favourite team's lack of success (while ignoring the factors that make their franchise more attractive). In other words - count all the bad things, and ignore all the good things.

3) In general, I agree with @tarheelhockey comments throughout this thread. (Not saying I agree with every single word of every post, but, in general, his comments are a good summary of some complex concepts).

EDIT - apparently I've written a lot of posts about this topic before. Here are a few examples (mostly relating to Auston Matthews - and he deserves credit for getting good advice):

1. Why Matthews pays much less in tax than his teammate Marner (link)
2. An (incomplete) list of factors that go into the determination of income taxes (link)
3. The complexities in equalizing after-tax salary between different jurisdictions (link)
4. Why doesn't every player structure their affairs the way that Matthews did? (link)
5. The RCA - see 2nd paragraph (link)
   1. Note - it's convenient that the people who complain about how unfair taxes are in Canada, never bring up this powerful tool, which is so advantageous, that the NBA has prohibited the Raptors from using it

 

[Legion34]

So it’s clear that you can recognize that endorsements are
- External to the NHL
- Not covered by the CBA
- Highly localized
- Mutable due to factors outside of NHL control

And therefore not something that would be appropriate to govern through the CBA.

If you can recognize this about endorsements, you can recognize it about taxes.

If nothing else, now you can see how your own argument looks through the eyes of people who aren’t boosting for their team to gain an artificial cap advantage under a thin veil of “fairness”.

Endorsement are not currently part of the CBA as HRR. Expansion fees are also not part of it.

There are obvious complications as secondary employment. But It’s a seperate issue. They have not chosen to cap endorsements. If they do. Fine. Make it fair.
This has nothing to do with the current artificial system and its implementation

That’s pretty simple.

Again. Boxing has weight classes. Not height classes, not reach classes.

If you are going to impose restrictions on a fight by weight. The rules can’t allow for a systemic advantage by some fighters.

You can argue about other advantages they did not control (height) but it’s not the current issues.

Fine. Make an endorsement cap. Make a weather cap. Make a media cap. Whatever it is. Make it fair.

Arguing about other advantages that are not capped as a method of justifying advantages that are is ridiculous

Ok, I guess. But you recognize that the reason the NHL won’t create an Avs or Swede specific rule is the same reason they won’t unbalance the cap? Regardless of whether parity is a byproduct or the original intent, manufactured disparity is not what the NHL is going to do.

Agreed. Except the current cap is allowing for manufactured disparity by allowing teams to agree to pay players “less” in cap hit to get the same take home and stack rosters.

they have manufactured this disparity. It doesn’t mean that they can’t overcome it. It doesn’t mean that there aren’t other advantages.

Edmonton could win the cup. Sure. That doesn’t mean that the current cap system is manufactured disparity

 

[Tanknation]

Hockey related endorsements are not a side business, they are an extension of the player’s affiliation with the NHL and constitute a stream of income directly related to their position with the team. They are also very market-specific and a quantifiable benefit of signing in e.g. Montreal instead of Columbus. Therefore they should be counted against the salary cap in order to be fair to the Columbuses of the league and eliminate Montreal’s unfair advantage when signing star players.


If you think this is an asinine position, imagine how it looks to others when you use the same logic to the benefit of your own interests.

This is not an issue of endorsements. A player may choose to sign with a team that offers extra endorsements despite high taxes, and it would be illogical to penalize that team or player for such a decision. The crux of the matter is not about targeting Canadian teams who generally pay higher taxes but rather about ensuring a level playing field through the salary cap, giving every team an equal opportunity.

Also, yes, star players are just so eager to join teams like Montreal and Toronto due to perceived endorsement benefits...not. these teams often face challenges in attracting top talent as it is. However, that is a separate issue altogether.

Fact remains. It should be an even playing field in terms of the salary cap. It's just that simple.

 

[HisNoodliness]

Tavares is literally getting sued for millions by the government.

Boogie man conspiracy theories do not over ride the reports of players,gms acountants

"Tavares is getting sued by the government for having committed millions of dollars in tax evasion,"


"The idea that NHLers evade their taxes is a boogie man conspiracy theory."

 

[Legion34]

"Tavares is getting sued by the government for having committed millions of dollars in tax evasion,"


"The idea that NHLers evade their taxes is a boogie man conspiracy theory."

No.

The issue was never that any individual player could attempt to get away with something on taxes. The issue was that some people lie without proof that
Tax rates don’t matter because NHL players can just avoid paying taxes like normal people.

With odd references to loopholes that are never suggested. This ignores actual testimony from people involved. And it is unclear why this wouldn’t apply to low tax markets too.

The white whale of this lie was an article that said that Tavares could claim residency and pay less on his SB. Which still didn’t make up the Tampa difference. But it was something.

Then. Turns out he tried what the article suggested and now is in court.


So they were wrong. Again.

 

[Golden_Jet]

No.

The issue was never that any individual player could attempt to get away with something on taxes. The issue was that some people lie without proof that
Tax rates don’t matter because NHL players can just avoid paying taxes like normal people.

With odd references to loopholes that are never suggested. This ignores actual testimony from people involved. And it is unclear why this wouldn’t apply to low tax markets too.

The white whale of this lie was an article that said that Tavares could claim residency and pay less on his SB. Which still didn’t make up the Tampa difference. But it was something.

Then. Turns out he tried what the article suggested and now is in court.


So they were wrong. Again.

Wrong

 

[HisNoodliness]

No.

The issue was never that any individual player could attempt to get away with something on taxes. The issue was that some people lie without proof that
Tax rates don’t matter because NHL players can just avoid paying taxes like normal people.

With odd references to loopholes that are never suggested. This ignores actual testimony from people involved. And it is unclear why this wouldn’t apply to low tax markets too.

The white whale of this lie was an article that said that Tavares could claim residency and pay less on his SB. Which still didn’t make up the Tampa difference. But it was something.

Then. Turns out he tried what the article suggested and now is in court.


So they were wrong. Again.

Yeah, you're going to hear lots of people volunteer the information: "I cheat my taxes by doing this, this and this."

If you're looking to push some Maple Leafs agenda, the only point that I'd concede is that it's a lot easier to get away with in the US.

 

[DistantThunderRep]

No.

The issue was never that any individual player could attempt to get away with something on taxes. The issue was that some people lie without proof that
Tax rates don’t matter because NHL players can just avoid paying taxes like normal people.

With odd references to loopholes that are never suggested. This ignores actual testimony from people involved. And it is unclear why this wouldn’t apply to low tax markets too.

The white whale of this lie was an article that said that Tavares could claim residency and pay less on his SB. Which still didn’t make up the Tampa difference. But it was something.

Then. Turns out he tried what the article suggested and now is in court.


So they were wrong. Again.

God damn it. You always bring me back by your blatant lies. Tavares is getting sued because he stated he was still a resident of New York when he got his signing bonus. The Feds are saying he was a Canadian resident at the time of signing because he was already living in Canada at that time. This is literally the whole argument of how the tax burden isn't as crazy as dumb hockey fans think because Residency will always play a big part of taxes and its not just 1 to 1.

Stop lying, stop making up things, just freaking stop.

Yeah, you're going to hear lots of people volunteer the information: "I cheat my taxes by doing this, this and this."

If you're looking to push some Maple Leafs agenda, the only point that I'd concede is that it's a lot easier to get away with in the US.

Tavares is arguing that he wasn't a Canadian Resident when getting his first bonus. The Canadian Government is calling bullshit. Is it evading taxes? Maybe, its a matter of the court to decide now.

I made a number of posts on this topic, mostly in 2022 and 2023. I've concluded, as someone with two decades of experience as a tax practitioner, it's not worth my time to argue with (certain) posters here, who don't even understand the basics.

That being said, I'll make three quick comments:

1) It's true that, overall, players in low-tax jurisdictions (like Florida or Texas) will pay less income tax than players in high-tax jurisdictions (like Ontario and Quebec). But, generally speaking, the differences are significantly smaller than simply comparing the top tax rate in each jurisdiction. NHL players typically have a team of accountants, lawyers and financial planners structure their affairs in a way that reduces their tax burden. Plus, "jock taxes" help reduce the differential in tax rates.

2) I see people complain about the differences in tax rates (mostly fans of Canadian teams). But they stay silent about other factors (for example, there's far more opportunity to make money through endorsement in Canada vs the US). Accordingly, it seems that most of the people complaining about tax are looking for an excuse to explain their favourite team's lack of success (while ignoring the factors that make their franchise more attractive). In other words - count all the bad things, and ignore all the good things.

3) In general, I agree with @tarheelhockey comments throughout this thread. (Not saying I agree with every single word of every post, but, in general, his comments are a good summary of some complex concepts).

EDIT - apparently I've written a lot of posts about this topic before. Here are a few examples (mostly relating to Auston Matthews - and he deserves credit for getting good advice):

1. Why Matthews pays much less in tax than his teammate Marner (link)
2. An (incomplete) list of factors that go into the determination of income taxes (link)
3. The complexities in equalizing after-tax salary between different jurisdictions (link)
4. Why doesn't every player structure their affairs the way that Matthews did? (link)
5. The RCA - see 2nd paragraph (link)
   1. Note - it's convenient that the people who complain about how unfair taxes are in Canada, never bring up this powerful tool, which is so advantageous, that the NBA has prohibited the Raptors from using it

I have brought up a lot of these points. And trust me man, Canadian fans won't listen. You being a tax accountant be damned. TSN and they know better.

I always bring up the RCA's and how the NBA banned the Raptors from using them. But silence and crickets.

 

[Joe Hallenback]

When you and your wife pay more taxes then people making 2 million a year

 

[Golden_Jet]

I have brought up a lot of these points. And trust me man, Canadian fans won't listen. You being a tax accountant be damned. TSN and they know better.

Hey don’t lump everyone in, with some dummies.

 

[DistantThunderRep]

Hey don’t lump everyone in, with some dummies.

Dude, I am from Vancouver. Its just easier to say Canadian Fans.

 

[Legion34]

God damn it. You always bring me back by your blatant lies. Tavares is getting sued because he stated he was still a resident of New York when he got his signing bonus. The Feds are saying he was a Canadian resident at the time of signing because he was already living in Canada at that time. This is literally the whole argument of how the tax burden isn't as crazy as dumb hockey fans think because Residency will always play a big part of taxes and its not just 1 to 1.

Stop lying, stop making up things, just freaking stop.


Tavares is arguing that he wasn't a Canadian Resident when getting his first bonus. The Canadian Government is calling bullshit. Is it evading taxes? Maybe, its a matter of the court to decide now.


I have brought up a lot of these points. And trust me man, Canadian fans won't listen. You being a tax accountant be damned. TSN and they know better.

I always bring up the RCA's and how the NBA banned the Raptors from using them. But silence and crickets.

1.) you literally just said a few pages back that rich people can just avoid taxes and the government “sucks them off”. Right?

Turns out no.
Financial ties are what matters. Not residency. That’s just one part. People who lie about taxes always sight the us residency. It’s very difficult and onerous and up for dispute. An agent for NHL players said most only can do it for the first year.


You again just decided that it’s easy. That’s the whole point he did what you said. And got sued

2.) anyone can claim to be an accountant here. We have published articles from named players, gms agents and accountants with NHL clients that you ignore.

RCAs are embarrassing. I have them. It’s not high level millionaire stuff. It just avoids double taxing. Locks you in to where you want to retire (have to take out in certain markets) and you have to trickle it out like a pensioner to avoid high tax brackets. It’s just insane that you compare that to cash in hand today.

Even though they are now where near the same as cash in hand
The raptors are fundamentally different because they can claim greater financial ties easier.
-41 road games in the states
-off season in states.

Canadian teams play more than half their games in Canada. Much harder to do.

If I randomly told you I have 36 NHL players and am an account. Would you just stop being wrong and agree with me?

 

[Daximus]

I wonder if cost of living gobbles up a lot of this tax benefit. Not cheap to live in Florida between housing and insurance.

I think cities like Vancouver and LA that have both expensive housing, cost of living and high tax rates likely still beat out Florida in overall cost of living.

 

[Jacob582]

I think cities like Vancouver and LA that have both expensive housing, cost of living and high tax rates likely still beat out Florida in overall cost of living.

I know. But there are other cities that are lower.

 

[tucker3434]

1.) you literally just said a few pages back that rich people can just avoid taxes and the government “sucks them off”. Right?

Turns out no.
Financial ties are what matters. Not residency. That’s just one part. People who lie about taxes always sight the us residency. It’s very difficult and onerous and up for dispute. An agent for NHL players said most only can do it for the first year.


You again just decided that it’s easy. That’s the whole point he did what you said. And got sued

2.) anyone can claim to be an accountant here. We have published articles from named players, gms agents and accountants with NHL clients that you ignore.

RCAs are embarrassing. I have them. It’s not high level millionaire stuff. It just avoids double taxing. Locks you in to where you want to retire (have to take out in certain markets) and you have to trickle it out like a pensioner to avoid high tax brackets. It’s just insane that you compare that to cash in hand today.

Even though they are now where near the same as cash in hand
The raptors are fundamentally different because they can claim greater financial ties easier.
-41 road games in the states
-off season in states.

Canadian teams play more than half their games in Canada. Much harder to do.

If I randomly told you I have 36 NHL players and am an account. Would you just stop being wrong and agree with me?

You need to read what hockey outsider wrote, especially number 1. It’s pretty clear he knows what he’s talking about and He’s right. Taxes are highly complex and highly personal and it’s why any type of cap-tax adjustments will never gain an ounce of traction. It’s DOA. If you want to “level the playing field” on taxes, you need to attack it from a different angle.

 

[DistantThunderRep]

1.) you literally just said a few pages back that rich people can just avoid taxes and the government “sucks them off”. Right?

Turns out no.
Financial ties are what matters. Not residency. That’s just one part. People who lie about taxes always sight the us residency. It’s very difficult and onerous and up for dispute. An agent for NHL players said most only can do it for the first year.


You again just decided that it’s easy. That’s the whole point he did what you said. And got sued

2.) anyone can claim to be an accountant here. We have published articles from named players, gms agents and accountants with NHL clients that you ignore.

RCAs are embarrassing. I have them. It’s not high level millionaire stuff. It just avoids double taxing. Locks you in to where you want to retire (have to take out in certain markets) and you have to trickle it out like a pensioner to avoid high tax brackets. It’s just insane that you compare that to cash in hand today.

Even though they are now where near the same as cash in hand
The raptors are fundamentally different because they can claim greater financial ties easier.
-41 road games in the states
-off season in states.

Canadian teams play more than half their games in Canada. Much harder to do.

If I randomly told you I have 36 NHL players and am an account. Would you just stop being wrong and agree with me?

Literally 1 singular case of this happening (recently). Confirmation bias. There are thousands and thousands of cases where this isn't an issue.

We have published articles from Agents and Tax Lawyers saying its not a huge thing like idiot Canadian fans looking for a new excuse make it out to be.

 

[Legion34]

You need to read what hockey outsider wrote, especially number 1. It’s pretty clear he knows what he’s talking about and He’s right. Taxes are highly complex and highly personal and it’s why any type of cap-tax adjustments will never gain an ounce of traction. It’s DOA. If you want to “level the playing field” on taxes, you need to attack it from a different angle.

Except. NHL players agents gms and the math disagree.

I have read it.
Anyone can claim to be an expert here. You can research yourself. There are actual articles from actual accountants who work with NHL clients and have their real name on it.

There are calculators. There are adjustments that are made. Lewis Gross literally gives a spread sheet to his clients on what each salary means in each market

And you will clearly see that top stars with NMC and full SB in low tax markets take 11-12%. In high it’s 14-15. Which equalizes net pay.

Pretty common themes for individuals.

I would suggest if you are really interested. read up on the issue. It has been discussed here for years.

Literally 1 singular case of this happening (recently). Confirmation bias. There are thousands and thousands of cases where this isn't an issue.

We have published articles from Agents and Tax Lawyers saying its not a huge thing like idiot Canadian fans looking for a new excuse make it out to be.

No.

You don’t know of what other Canadian players are doing. You don’t know about these magical loopholes that level the playing field. You are just saying they are there.

NHL agents players accountants disagree.

Methot said he paid 700k more in taxes in Ottawa than Dallas. They all could be paying way more.

There was one specific example of an article that slightly made your point. And JT is going to court.