Amateur Scouting

[Stephen]

I think it's more of a development problem. We are signing and assigning prospects to the Marlies very early on and it doesn't seem to amount to any increased development. Guys like Sandin and Robertson looked like great value picks from their D+1 seasons, but never really built on them.

Development has been very impatient. The Leafs promoted and then moved off a whole generation of Marlies players and now guys like Robertson and Sandin are getting called on while half baked.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

We have gotten too far removed from da O in our drafting .. like it or not 27% of NHL rostered players come from da O .. and 34% of our team is from da O .. but when you look at our recent drafting we are missing so many real good O players .. no reason for us to miss on Barclay or Paul for instance .. hopefully this year we trade up for Beck

 

[Apex Predator]

Development has been very impatient. The Leafs promoted and then moved off a whole generation of Marlies players and now guys like Robertson and Sandin are getting called on while half baked.

It could be impatients or we are not putting them in the best spot to succeed when they get the chance. Nick Robertson is a Top 6 player but we seem to always use him on the 4th line. He’s never going to succeed there.

We saw this in the past with our dman and pairing them with bad partners. I think we’re doing it right with Sandin and Lily. We need them both to continue building on on their seasons.

 

[Amadeus]

Let's see how Wes Clark does as his first year in charge of Amateur Scouting.

 

[3headeddragon]

I would love to see Robertson take the next step, but will he be given a chance or do they sign another free agent as a stop gap.

Hopefully some of the Marlies players get a look in the big league. I just hope people are right about Dubas recent drafts. If Knies can be a left winger on any line, it should be a success of a pick.

You sign insurance. It's up to the Marlies to grab the reigns and take the job.

 

[Arthur Morgan]

Wish we could find a franchise goalie like we did with Rask.

Yeah would have been cool to see Rask/Pogge come up together. who knows maybe Pogge would have developed into something more if all the pressure of being the leafs savior

 

[Steven1562]

The biggest problem for the Leafs rebuild/build has definitely been an inability to find impact players outside of the first round. Be it by luck or smart scouting teams like Tampa end up with guys like Point from the 3rd round. That hasn't happened with the Leafs

They've managed to find depth guys, and some useful pieces like Dermott, Brown, Engvall, but no real impact players.

Fingers crossed the last 3-4 draft cycles start to show some results. There's definitely more than a few interesting guys in the system, we just need them to take the next step.

Tampa always finds these guys it's crazy.
In 2014 we chose Rinat Valiev over Brayden Point
In 2015 we take Andrew Nielsen over Anthony Cirelli
In 2016 we take Keaton Middleton over Ross Colton

 

[Jozay]

The drafting has been poor. Seems like its gotten better under Dubas, but we havent quite seen it at the NHL level outside of Sandin yet.

 

[Fonzieleaf]

Hunter drafted a lot of crap skill players too. His problem wasn’t a philosophical focus on certain player types but just mostly not hitting on each player type.

It was for the 2015 draft. The plan was to emphasize skill.

The drafting has been poor. Seems like its gotten better under Dubas, but we havent quite seen it at the NHL level outside of Sandin yet.

Robertson and Knies are close. Only reason Knies won't be on the team next year is because he chose school over the NHL.

 

[Menzinger]

Knies I think has the best chance to be that hidden gem we've all been waiting on. I haven't been this high on a non-first round pick in quite some time.

I also wouldnt write Robertson off either. It's just a pity injuries have disrupted his development.

 

[CabanaBoy5]

This has been my problem with the infatuation with smaller skilled players. They have a place on the team...any team. But you can't have a whole team of them either. Everyone is talking about Steeves, Anderson and Abruzzese for the 4th line thinking we are going to win the matchup because of hustle and skill. I don't think that is the type of player we need down there...we need some bangers and heavy hitters. We get these smallish guys like Abruzzese who in the 10 games he played with us could not find literally 1 thing I could say was encouraging....no shot, not physical etc.

They draft for skill but the problem is if the skill is not enough the pick is wasted. Knies is a bigger guy who is pretty fast and hits...even if he has Hyman hands (first few years in the NHL) he can still make an impact while he learns. Can you say that about Steeves and the like? I don't know...but it doesn't look good.

Agree totally, especially with the bolded. They keep saying Abruzzese has a high IQ on the ice but I see nothing in his game that tells me he can make good use of that IQ.

 

[fahad203]

Yeah would have been cool to see Rask/Pogge come up together. who knows maybe Pogge would have developed into something more if all the pressure of being the leafs savior

Pogge was never pressured to be leafs savior. We had Raycroft, Toskala at that time.

He was given all the time in the world to grow into a player

 

[Arthur Morgan]

Pogge was never pressured to be leafs savior. We had Raycroft, Toskala at that time.

He was given all the time in the world to grow into a player

Was a long time ago maybe I just forgot. either way sucks we let go of Rask so quickly. I hated that trade from the beginning

 

[fahad203]

Was a long time ago maybe I just forgot. either way sucks we let go of Rask so quickly. I hated that trade from the beginning

If you had traded Pogge at the time you would have been run out of town

he was owning WHL and was brilliant in wjc. Even Boston admitted they asked for him first

both pogge and rask was few years away. They needed a starter right away. Raycroft had a bad year and was still young

Raycroft played well enough but the team in front of him sucked and our d really sucked

everything about that team sucked hence making Raycroft worse than he was

ironic. the one goalie became a franchise backbone the other could never even get a backup job

goes to show numbers means nothing

also noting Rask didn't become a starter until 2012
He always played behind a very good defensive teams. Nothing taking away from him

 

[Arthur Morgan]

If you had traded Pogge at the time you would have been run out of town

he was owning WHL and was brilliant in wjc. Even Boston admitted they asked for him first

both pogge and rask was few years away. They needed a starter right away. Raycroft had a bad year and was still young

Raycroft played well enough but the team in front of him sucked and our d really sucked

everything about that team sucked hence making Raycroft worse than he was

ironic. the one goalie became a franchise backbone the other could never even get a backup job

goes to show numbers means nothing

yup I didnt wanna trade either that final was incredible and was so excited to watch both grow as a Pogge/Rask what I thought at the time tandem
lol

 

[HellasLEAF]

I expected this area to be more of a Dubas strength but to be honest it's been more of a mixed bag his decision making on players is baffling at times.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

It was for the 2015 draft. The plan was to emphasize skill.

That is why Dubas emphasizes IQ.

As much as Dubas has not drafted guys like Rasanen, he has also not drafted guys like Bracco or Korostelev or Ho-Sang either. You can be extremely talented, but if you don't have the brain to put it altogether, you won't be able to bring much to the NHL where everyone (more or less) is extremely talented.

Hirvonen

Hirvonen has the potential to be a top-six forward at the next level if he can continue his development. While he is undersized, his skating and smarts can help him to overcome that.

He doesn’t necessarily have high-end skill in any area but his effort level is great and he plays a reliable two-way game. He battles for pucks in the corners and goes to the dirty areas of the ice.

Niemela

Very reliable and smart two-way defenseman who will join the rush and get involved offensively. Reliable defensively already at young age which bodes well for his NHL future.

Niemelä’s biggest strength is his hockey smarts. He always knows where he should be and where his teammates are. He understands when he should join the rush and support an attack but he also knows when to hold back to make sure the opposing team doesn’t get a dangerous scoring chance. Niemelä is also a great skater which allows him to play that type of role. He can make above-average plays but isn’t the type of player who will make flashy high-end plays constantly.

Niemela has very good mobility, which allows him to play a strong two-way game. He has good gap control and is strong positionally, leading to a strong defensive game. Niemela defends effectively in one-on-one situations, forcing attackers to the outside and away from prime scoring areas. As he continues to add weight to his frame he will become even better at working along the boards and winning battles for loose pucks. Niemela retrieves loose pucks quickly and moves it out of the zone quickly with a good first pass, as well as the ability to skate the puck out of danger with his good stickhandling ability. He is strong positionally and uses his stick to steal the puck from opponents as well as to intercept passes.

Amirov

A solid two-way winger who thrives on creating space for himself in the offensive zone to create plays. Good skill and very smart, but lacks pure speed and strength.

Amirov is effective on the forecheck, getting in quickly and hounding defenceman and forcing them to move the puck quicker than they want to. This often leads to mistakes which he can quickly turn into a scoring chance. He isn’t overly physical, but his mere presence hounding the puck is effective. Amirov could become even more effective in this area of his game as he gains muscle.

Amirov is effective in all three zones, also hounding the puck in the neutral zone and helping out on the backcheck. He is positionally sound and uses an active stick to cut down passing lanes and to knock the puck away from his opponent. Amirov is not an overly physical player, instead he uses his smarts, ability to read the play, and anticipation to help break up offensive chances and support the defenders in his own end of the ice. He has been used as a penalty killer in the MHL as well as when he plays with his age group in international tournaments.

Robertson

Robertson has a non-stop motor and is always involved in the middle of the play. He is surprisingly physical for his size, getting in quickly on the forecheck and being an absolute wrecking ball against opposing defenders. His ability to cause turnovers and create havoc on the forecheck helps him to create offence. He is also willing to get to the front of the net and creates havoc there. Robertson is good at getting tip-ins, burying rebounds, or just causing goaltenders problems with his presence and ability to get under their skin.

Robertson keeps his feet moving and is willing to play his gritty game in all three zones. The effort level cannot be questioned. However, he needs to work on his positioning and discipline. Robertson can get himself out of position by chasing the puck and looking for the big hit. This can leave his man open at times and creates some problems. With more time and proper coaching, he can fix these issues though. He also could use some work in the faceoff circle, especially if he wants to play centre at the next level. Robertson’s lack of size can be an issue when he supports down low as he can be overpowered by bigger and more physical forwards.

Kokkonen

Kokkonen plays a smart defensive game. He has good gap control against the rush and keeps his man to the outside. He also does a good job of cutting down passing lanes and using his stick to break up plays. Kokkonen is willing to battle in front of the net and play a physical game along the boards. However, he is not a big hitter. Rather he uses his body to win battles for loose pucks as well as protect the puck when he gets it.

etc.

Generally, the thing in common for most guys drafted is a solid, well-rounded, multi-dimensional skillset, they have high IQ, and they have terrific work ethic with a willingness and effectiveness in tight areas even if they are not the largest guys in the world. The downside is they need more strength and need to fine tune some things (usually skating), which is not uncommon for prospects that age. The end result are guys who can play all over a lineup and can fill a variety of roles, depending on what we need.

 

[ACC1224]

If you had traded Pogge at the time you would have been run out of town

he was owning WHL and was brilliant in wjc. Even Boston admitted they asked for him first

both pogge and rask was few years away. They needed a starter right away. Raycroft had a bad year and was still young

Raycroft played well enough but the team in front of him sucked and our d really sucked

everything about that team sucked hence making Raycroft worse than he was

ironic. the one goalie became a franchise backbone the other could never even get a backup job

goes to show numbers means nothing

also noting Rask didn't become a starter until 2012
He always played behind a very good defensive teams. Nothing taking away from him

Boston asked for Pogge first?
I don’t recall ever hearing that before, where did you get that info?

 

[Stigma]

We've been through this before. We've got some decent looking prospects to be optimistic about developing into something with the right level of minor league seasoning. None of them are anything until they perform at the NHL level. And the GM has got to resist the temptation to rush them to the NHL. Both Robertson and Ambruzzesse looked out of place in their early auditions.

Sandin is almost a 2nd round pick and he's somewhat of a hit although injuries have slowed his progress. Durzi definitely isn't going to be bottom pairing. He had the 3rd most ice time amongst L.A. defensemen in the 2022 playoffs.

Absolutely. I was duped in 2015. Remember this group? It looked like a legendary draft at the time. Even a year or two after, it still looked decent. I was absolutely convinced that we had, minimum, 4 NHLers.....maybe up to 6. Man, was I wrong.

Moral of the story: "none of them are anything until they perform at the NHL level".

Mitch Marner Travis Dermott

Jeremy Bracco

Andrew Nielsen

Martins Dzierkals

Jesper Lindgren

Dmytro Timashov

Stephen Desrocher

Nikita Korostelev

 

[kb]

One of the problem is we draft the exact same player every year

Abramov, SDA, Abruzzee, Robertsson, Hirvonen

Everyone drafted I'm 2019 has the exact same profile at least physically

Now that doesn't mean you draft a goon. Saying that before someone jumps the gun. Oh my God, you want them to draft goons. How was Hunter years ? All that

Pick the best overall player but pick different style of players.

Sea of Blue just posted that players of the same size doesn't mean that they are the same player. That's a ridiculous take.

But it did in the Hunter era, he drafted for size and grit - yet not one of them was even worth an ELC (regardless if they got one or not). That's the very definition of bad drafting letting size dictate over all else.

 

[fahad203]

Boston asked for Pogge first?
I don’t recall ever hearing that before, where did you get that info?

It was on Sportsnet radio. They had some scouting members I am not sure if it was from the Leafs during Peter Chiralli days and when Brian Burke was our GM

For what we know it may have been posturing

 

[Brobust]

The drafting has been poor. Seems like its gotten better under Dubas, but we havent quite seen it at the NHL level outside of Sandin yet.

Well, unless the player is exceptional. 3-4 years is generally how long it takes.

 

[Mess]

Hard to judge amateur scouting when the GM empties the draft pick cupboard including high picks mortgaging the future for the present.

2021 Draft .. Only 3 picks (no 1st trade for Nick Foligno)
2222 Draft .. Only 3 picks survived for this year.

Despite losing in round #1 each year the Leafs will be making for the second consecutive season the fewest draft picks of all NHL teams.

This is the kind of actions you would expect from a Cup contending team looking for that last advantage to put them over the top.

The margin and % to hit on drafted player is already low, but if you trade away and never make it the results are already in on that sacrified pick at zero%.

 

[Brobust]

Hard to judge amateur scouting when the GM empties the draft pick cupboard including high picks mortgaging the future for the present.

2021 Draft .. Only 3 picks (no 1st trade for Nick Foligno)
2222 Draft .. Only 3 picks survived for this year.

Despite losing in round #1 each year the Leafs will be making for the second consecutive season the fewest draft picks of all NHL teams.

This is the kind of actions you would expect from a Cup contending team looking for that last advantage to put them over the top.

The margin and % to hit on drafted player is already low, but if you trade away and never make it the results are already in on that sacrified pick at zero%.

Wait, the leafs are rebuilding? Even though they get 115 points, we are supposed to say they suck and stock up on draft picks?

 

[justashadowof]

Agree totally, especially with the bolded. They keep saying Abruzzese has a high IQ on the ice but I see nothing in his game that tells me he can make good use of that IQ.

I can see some positives from his audition. I believed he might not skate well enough to be a successful pro because all I could sample of him on YT was static power play and odd man offensive rushes where he'd switch to glide to make a play. But I thought he showed that he's capable of skating at a professional level once he was here. He's capable of taking a hard pro level long pass cleanly, moving it a few strides and dumping it deep.