All Purpose Trade/Roster Building Thread XII - The UFA frenzy aftermath

[whiskers]

TSN says we are inquiring about SJ Burns , isnt he wasted up? , id love to have Karlsson instead , im sure if he played with us he would get back to his 80 points days , SJ would need to eat half of his salary , Karlsson would be the only defensemen i would trade for Necas , throw in Suzuki ....Lafontaine if gone , i would have played them in the ECHL b4 letting go to see if we could get anything for him but my mind was set i didnt want to see him in a Canes Jersey again , wish him best of luck

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

TSN says we are inquiring about SJ Burns , isnt he wasted up? , id love to have Karlsson instead , im sure if he played with us he would get back to his 80 points days , SJ would need to eat half of his salary , Karlsson would be the only defensemen i would trade for Necas , throw in Suzuki ....Lafontaine if gone , i would have played them in the ECHL b4 letting go to see if we could get anything for him but my mind was set i didnt want to see him in a Canes Jersey again , wish him best of luck

karlsson is washed up too and you want to move Necas + for him? his ankle is hanging on by a thread at this point.

 

[Svechhammer]

TSN says we are inquiring about SJ Burns , isnt he wasted up? , id love to have Karlsson instead , im sure if he played with us he would get back to his 80 points days , SJ would need to eat half of his salary , Karlsson would be the only defensemen i would trade for Necas , throw in Suzuki ....Lafontaine if gone , i would have played them in the ECHL b4 letting go to see if we could get anything for him but my mind was set i didnt want to see him in a Canes Jersey again , wish him best of luck

Burns would have led the Canes last year in blocked shots (150 vs our team high of about 115) and assists (44).

Not bad for a washed up guy, I guess.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

I'm commenting based on what I have seen/read. Sources are hockey writers/reporters such as Friedman, Seravelli, Dreger. At times, these guys have legit insider knowledge of conversations. It's not always conjecture.

Thanks.

My point was more twofold. 1) every year, the Canes seem to be linked to just about everyone from the pundits, when in reality, they likely just kick the tires. I'm sure they made calls, but how serious they are? who knows.
2) Forsberg was never available. He was scheduled to be a UFA tomorrow, but Nashville already extended him so no matter what, there was zero chance the Canes were in on him. Same "kinda" goes for Tarasenko. We may have asked about him, but reportedly, STL is not interested in trading him at all with Perron going UFA.

If that is indeed true, we don't have a chance at him either so it's not a case of just "going out and getting one of them" for these two players.

 

[Lempo]

I remembered Bobby Ryan getting his on May 15th a few years ago (Link).

I'd like hereby to change the "some guy" in my post to Bobby Ryan.

 

[MinJaBen]

TSN says we are inquiring about SJ Burns , isnt he wasted up? , id love to have Karlsson instead , im sure if he played with us he would get back to his 80 points days , SJ would need to eat half of his salary , Karlsson would be the only defensemen i would trade for Necas , throw in Suzuki ....Lafontaine if gone , i would have played them in the ECHL b4 letting go to see if we could get anything for him but my mind was set i didnt want to see him in a Canes Jersey again , wish him best of luck

Burns' contract is shorter, less money, he puts up more points, and he plays more minutes. I'd take Burns every day and twice on Sunday over greasy fro.

 

[Svechhammer]

Thanks.

My point was more twofold. 1) every year, the Canes seem to be linked to just about everyone from the pundits, when in reality, they likely just kick the tires. I'm sure they made calls, but how serious they are? who knows.
2) Forsberg was never available. He was scheduled to be a UFA tomorrow, but Nashville already extended him so no matter what, there was zero chance the Canes were in on him. Same "kinda" goes for Tarasenko. We may have asked about him, but reportedly, STL is not interested in trading him at all with Perron going UFA.

If that is indeed true, we don't have a chance at him either so it's not a case of just "going out and getting one of them" for these two players.

I still say with Tarasenko, if he supposedly wants out, they might not have a choice but to trade him. He very well could hold out if he's that unhappy, so never say never there.

Not that I think that'll happen, but with a player requesting a trade, I try not to rule anything out.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

I still say with Tarasenko, if he supposedly wants out, they might not have a choice but to trade him. He very well could hold out if he's that unhappy, so never say never there.

Not that I think that'll happen, but with a player requesting a trade, I try not to rule anything out.

Fair enough. He reportedly wanted out last year as well and it worked out, but who knows.

 

[Lempo]

Even if the typical bonus is July 1st, that date has already passed. In 2020, prior to the restart, the players eligible for July 1st 2020 bonuses received them on that date (Link). UFA day was several months later.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong that the bonus date is not tied to free agency day.

I can't quote right now, but the 2021 MOU has rule 9 and 10 prohibiting new contracts paying the signing bonus prior to July 13, 2022.

This must mean that the previously signed contracts will pay the bonuses on the agreed dates. Which is sensible, as the players probably have agreed other contractual obligations based on those dates and can't reneg them.

I was mistaken in my previous posts: the MOU 2021 altering of dates concerned the deadlines for submitting the NTC lists, not signing bonus pay dates.

 

[Brock Anton]

Get SJ to retain like $1.5M and I think we can make Burns work. I’d much prefer that over Petry.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

Burns at 6.5 million for years 38-40? Pass

 

[TheReelChuckFletcher]

Burns is not washed up, actually. He's still a really good player. I would try to get a considerable amount of retention, though, to lower the risk a bit.

 

[Svechhammer]

I'd sweeten the pot if we could convince San Jose to retain 50% cap.

Burns at $4m aav for the next 3 years? Yeah, that would be great to be honest, and those years should overlap with Morrow coming in, so we should be able to make it work even when he starts tailing at the end.

Hell, if you even got them to retain $3m on the $8m aav, that's still workable for us.

 

[Stickpucker]

A good read (sorry, for Athletic members) re: valuing positions--

How much should NHL top-line forwards and defensemen be worth towards a team's salary cap?

The easy way of figuring this out would be to look around every NHL lineup and simply average the cap hits for each position. We tried it!

theathletic.com

No too long not subscribed?

 

[cptjeff]

I still say with Tarasenko, if he supposedly wants out, they might not have a choice but to trade him. He very well could hold out if he's that unhappy, so never say never there.

Not that I think that'll happen, but with a player requesting a trade, I try not to rule anything out.

He made his request last year, the Blues weren't able to find a deal/didn't try too hard to find a deal, and he played and played well in accordance with his contract. I think the Blues are basically expecting to pull the same thing this year. "Oh, nothing came through, we expect you to play for us".

 

[Borsig]

The vast majority of players we've kicked around or sniffed at are old and at the end of their career.
Malkin
Giroux
Burns.
These mid 30s or older guys with expensive contracts are just no. I don't even want Burns at 4. Dude is SLOW. He will get burned repeatedly.

 

[AhosDatsyukian]

He made his request last year, the Blues weren't able to find a deal/didn't try too hard to find a deal, and he played and played well in accordance with his contract. I think the Blues are basically expecting to pull the same thing this year. "Oh, nothing came through, we expect you to play for us".

Probably, although then the risk for them is to lose him for nothing as a UFA. I'd gladly wait a year to just sign him outright.

 

[Svechhammer]

No too long not subscribed?

Position	Average Cap Hit	Low End Cap Hit	Average % of Cap	High End % of Cap
Elite Center	$7.5m	5.9%​	9.2%​	12.5%​
Elite Winger	$7.2m	5.6%​	8.8%​	12.1%​
Elite Defenseman	$7.1m	6.3%​	8.7%​	11.0%​
Elite Goalie	$5.3m	3.7%​	6.5%​	9.2%​
Top Line Center	$6.0m	4.8%​	7.4%​	10.1%​
Top Line Winger	$5.3m	4.4%​	6.4%​	8.5%​
Top Line Winger *	$5.0m	3.2%​	6.2%​	9.2%​
#1 Defenseman	$5.5m	4.9%​	6.8%​	8.7%​
Top 6 Forward	$3.9m	2.9%​	4.8%​	6.8%​
Top 6 Forward *	$3.0m	1.7%​	3.7%​	5.7%​
Top Pair Defenseman	$3.3m	2.0%​	4.0%​	6.1%​
Top Pair Defenseman *	$3.4m	1.9%​	4.1%​	6.3%​

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

Giroux or Malkin are the only two players I can see we would reach on (unless Klingberg's market tanks).

Those are willing to take shorter deals due to age and are game changers.

I dont see us ever going over 3 years for a UFA again after the Gardiner debacle. We want to see a guy in the locker room and on the ice before signing him to a longer deal.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Probably, although then the risk for them is to lose him for nothing as a UFA. I'd gladly wait a year to just sign him outright.

True, but they are in a window to win now, so they likely prefer to keep him and try to win vs. worrying about losing him as a UFA.

 

[TheReelChuckFletcher]

It actually makes some sense that the Canes want to target older veterans. Not only are they more likely to be on shorter contracts, but I also don't think that people understand how young our core group actually is. We actually could use some veteran leadership in our ranks when guys like Nino and Trocheck get their big free agent contracts tomorrow, as long as those guys are good players, and yes, Petry and Burns are still good players. Also, it's a fallacy to say that just because Gardiner's back turned out to be goo that it's a bad idea to use free agency to improve your club in areas where your farm is lacking. Sometimes the perfect player is available and you need to add more years to get them on board.

 

[Svechhammer]

And in case anyone wants to know what those cap hit %s come out to.....

Position​	Low-End Contract​	Mid-Range Contract​	High-Price Contract​
Elite Center	$ 4,867,500.00	$ 7,590,000.00	$ 10,312,500.00
Elite Winger	$ 4,620,000.00	$ 7,260,000.00	$ 9,982,500.00
Elite Defenseman	$ 5,197,500.00	$ 7,177,500.00	$ 9,075,000.00
Elite Goalie	$ 3,052,500.00	$ 5,362,500.00	$ 7,590,000.00
Top Line Center	$ 3,960,000.00	$ 6,105,000.00	$ 8,332,500.00
Top Line Winger	$ 3,630,000.00	$ 5,280,000.00	$ 7,012,500.00
Top Line Winger *	$ 2,640,000.00	$ 5,115,000.00	$ 7,590,000.00
#1 Defenseman	$ 4,042,500.00	$ 5,610,000.00	$ 7,177,500.00
Top 6 Forward	$ 2,392,500.00	$ 3,960,000.00	$ 5,610,000.00
Top 6 Forward *	$ 1,402,500.00	$ 3,052,500.00	$ 4,702,500.00
Top Pair Defenseman	$ 1,650,000.00	$ 3,300,000.00	$ 5,032,500.00
Top Pair Defenseman *	$ 1,567,500.00	$ 3,382,500.00	$ 5,197,500.00

* - just the way it was on their chart

 

[MinJaBen]

And in case anyone wants to know what those cap hit %s come out to.....

Position​	Low-End Contract​	Mid-Range Contract​	High-Price Contract​
Elite Center	$ 4,867,500.00	$ 7,590,000.00	$ 10,312,500.00
Elite Winger	$ 4,620,000.00	$ 7,260,000.00	$ 9,982,500.00
Elite Defenseman	$ 5,197,500.00	$ 7,177,500.00	$ 9,075,000.00
Elite Goalie	$ 3,052,500.00	$ 5,362,500.00	$ 7,590,000.00
Top Line Center	$ 3,960,000.00	$ 6,105,000.00	$ 8,332,500.00
Top Line Winger	$ 3,630,000.00	$ 5,280,000.00	$ 7,012,500.00
Top Line Winger *	$ 2,640,000.00	$ 5,115,000.00	$ 7,590,000.00
#1 Defenseman	$ 4,042,500.00	$ 5,610,000.00	$ 7,177,500.00
Top 6 Forward	$ 2,392,500.00	$ 3,960,000.00	$ 5,610,000.00
Top 6 Forward *	$ 1,402,500.00	$ 3,052,500.00	$ 4,702,500.00
Top Pair Defenseman	$ 1,650,000.00	$ 3,300,000.00	$ 5,032,500.00
Top Pair Defenseman *	$ 1,567,500.00	$ 3,382,500.00	$ 5,197,500.00

* - just the way it was on their chart

Those numbers make me laugh. It's like demand curves aren't a thing in his world. Good luck with those.

 

[moses malone 12]

Thanks.

My point was more twofold. 1) every year, the Canes seem to be linked to just about everyone from the pundits, when in reality, they likely just kick the tires. I'm sure they made calls, but how serious they are? who knows.
2) Forsberg was never available. He was scheduled to be a UFA tomorrow, but Nashville already extended him so no matter what, there was zero chance the Canes were in on him. Same "kinda" goes for Tarasenko. We may have asked about him, but reportedly, STL is not interested in trading him at all with Perron going UFA.

If that is indeed true, we don't have a chance at him either so it's not a case of just "going out and getting one of them" for these two players.

understood and feel that you are correct about tire kicking. It may not ever lead to serious interest. I'll give you my perspective. Give me a little rope on this as its a theory. My primary is this: should Canes remain committed "value buyers", they will lose the opportunity to address what is keeping them from reaching the SCF. Tampa makes deals every deadline that position them for deep run. Colorado has a similar approach. I'll pivot to my comments re: Forsberg and Tarasenko as they are great examples of players that if Canes have/had interest, then go get the player. In Forsberg's case, he never made it to FA however there was a time that it wasn't a slam dunk outcome. I felt he would resign once Kunin was dumped. Tarasenko may not get traded but Blues will then lose him for nothing next year.

Back to my theory. IMO, there will be an accounting for the Canes to prove their thesis was a success within the next 2-3 years. Granted, their model has resulted in a lot of success, to the point that I believe fans want more out of this team right now. To me, there are two questions for the team to address right now: First, is the lack of a true sniper to give top two lines more firepower holding the team back or not? I firmly believe this is a glaring weakness. Second, figure out what they want of the back end. The endless search for the missing top 4 d man seems to exist every year. what exactly do they want? a PP specialist, another Pesce?. why not put Pesce with Slavin, and get a mid- range defensive minded RHD for Skjei?. The team seems to spend time and resources trying to solve this every year. See revolving door in the past 3-4 years (Faulk, de haan, TVR, edmundson, Hankanpaa, TDA, Hamilton) why can't they identify exactly what is missing by now and go get it.

My hope is that they are committed to getting to the next level of success - a truly elite team. If it's the missing top 4 dman, then go fix the problem once and for all. If it means getting a true sniper, then go get him. This would help reassure the fanbase that they are not just tire kickers who can't pull the trigger because such a deal doesn't fit their value model.

I think the coming season is pivotal to this team.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Those numbers make me laugh. It's like demand curves aren't a thing in his world. Good luck with those.

Did those numbers come from Waddell?