Rumor: ALL PURPOSE JT MILLER THREAD PT2 - It's Been 84 Years....

[EverTheCynic]

As a Flames fan I'd be very interested in Horvat, but we'd want him long term at a reasonable contract. What would be your ask from Calgary?

I can't say I'm as interested in Miller. Flames want to lock up some contracts going forward and probably compete for 3-4 seasons or do a NYR type of sell off retool/rebuild over 2-3 seasons. I think the Flames would be able to put together a reasonably competitive package of either roster players or futures that would fit with what Vancouver wants.

I don't get why you'd move both Miller and Horvat though. If Miller is out, I assume you can keep Horvat. If Horvat is out, I don't understand why you wouldn't just give Miller Kadri money... unless you're basically saying you're trying to pick up an extra asset and use the extra assets towards sorting out the issues on the roster?

Andersson

 

[GirardSpinorama]

So is it looking like all those rumors for Jersey's 2nd overall pick was BS? which loser insider should we ignore?

 

[Pure Slaughter Value]

So is it looking like all those rumors for Jersey's 2nd overall pick was BS? which loser insider should we ignore?

Multiple Choice test

A) All of them
B) Any of them
C) Every one of them
D) A, B & C

You really can't be wrong on this test

 

[VanillaCoke]

So is it looking like all those rumors for Jersey's 2nd overall pick was BS? which loser insider should we ignore?

All of em.

Nobody knows squat about Van, if it doesn't get released by the team its more ego stroking speculation trying to sound important and stay relevant.

Looking at you drance, irf and satiar. All shit.

 

[Figgy44]

To me it would start with an Extended Horvat for an Extended Weeger + 2023 1st and a 2023 cond 2nd(upgrades to your 2024 unprotected 1st if make WCF). Or Anderson ++

I don't mind the basis, but those seems like more than a 50% premium... I'd politely decline.

Andersson

IMO he is not off limits if Horvat is on the table with the ability to negotiate an extension.

 

[NJ Devil]

It wont be ideal but id rather we let JT walk for nothing than sign him to an awful contract because we were worried about letting him for nothing

Well that logic is a bit off, you seem to be missing an entire step

Not signing Miller and letting him walk for nothing seems to miss the part where he can just be moved at the deadline as a pure rental. Any assets are better than no assets.

If a GM lets Miller walk for nothing and didnt want to sign them, itd have better been for a deep playoff run. Experience for the kids isnt a good enough reason to pass on, essentially, somewhere around two 1sts of value

 

[sting101]

Exactly. Say for example, the most teams are willing to offer is a 3rd round pick (I would assume that's not the case but you never know). It would be absolutely stupid to move him for that instead of just keeping him. There's a line here. If the offers suck then you just keep him for the season and lose him for nothing next summer. It's not ideal, but it might be the best option.


So it would be better to get some mediocre assets and lose a 99 point centreman for next season? To me that's the bigger failure.

Cap space is an asset.

Miller is worth 3.5 million per in excess right now and that has insane value to say nothing about being a top20 player in the NHL.

If he wants 8.5 on a extension over too long then that is 8.5 they get to have next season without an extension.

Not ideal but better than all these pathetic limp offers of taking mid tier players late picks and B prospects when we could go after a big fish in free agency who wants to be in Van like Severson Dumba etc??? after running on the back of Miller for another year.

Just may have to adjust the mentality to a hockey trade or just picks vs a blue chip young player is all.

 

[Tob]

Francesco Aquilini doesn't want the team to take a step back. They are 100% committed to making the playoffs no matter the cost. That's what's dictating the Miller trade. They want to trade Miller with no retention and use that $5.25M in cap to upgrades the D with Klingberg or some other UFA or through trade. Or they would keep Miller, great player, great contract, he'll help them get into a playoff spot up until the deadline. Trade him at the deadline, then possibly go out and trade a 2nd for some help to appease the players and the fans. The last thing Aquilini wants to do is retain $2.625M and be left unable to upgrade the team and be without their 1C. They either keep the full hit and the player or they get rid of all of it and upgrade with it in typical Benning era UFA signing fashion. The Micheylev signing makes it clear they're trying to get better on the ice and win next season.

If I recall correctly, Rutherford said they believe Miller is a high caliber player that shouldn't require retention to move which is an odd statement. You retain to get maximum value or you retain to facilitate a deal. There's nothing that says if he's a good player you don't have to retain. The situation dictates it. That's what's making me think they really covet that retention cap space to get better instead of using it in a Miller trade to get an extra 2nd round pick. If they're against retention, the asking price would be quite high if retention is involved and they'd be asking for both a nice impact roster player plus 1st plus great prospect and I believe that's scaring away teams and straight up eliminating teams from making an offer. That's the reason why the Rangers were able to make an offer while the other teams were kicking tires. The Rangers had ample space last year and they were planning on letting Strome walk. They were one of the few teams that could acquire Miller's 1.5 years remaining contract without retention and likely the only one that didn't need to bank up cap and could acquire him in December instead of at the last moment in March. Miller would be their 2C this season if they had acquired him and they wouldn't have to sign Trocheck.

They're still doubling down on no retention and I think that's fine. If they can't get the no retention trade they're happy with, they should keep him if the goal is to win next year and get 4 months of good hockey out of miller before trading him at the deadline. The mandate to improve the D plus they're already over the cap suggests a contract has to go out. Dollar for dollar, Miller is the last player they'd move if they're trying to compete next year. They'll spend the summer trying trade Miller with no retention for a deal they're happy with or move Garland or Myers for assets or if nothing shakes out, pay Arizona or Anaheim to take Pearson off their hands so they can be cap compliant.

 

[RangerBoy]

Francesco Aquilini doesn't want the team to take a step back. They are 100% committed to making the playoffs no matter the cost. That's what's dictating the Miller trade. They want to trade Miller with no retention and use that $5.25M in cap to upgrades the D with Klingberg or some other UFA or through trade. Or they would keep Miller, great player, great contract, he'll help them get into a playoff spot up until the deadline. Trade him at the deadline, then possibly go out and trade a 2nd for some help to appease the players and the fans. The last thing Aquilini wants to do is retain $2.625M and be left unable to upgrade the team and be without their 1C. They either keep the full hit and the player or they get rid of all of it and upgrade with it in typical Benning era UFA signing fashion. The Micheylev signing makes it clear they're trying to get better on the ice and win next season.

If I recall correctly, Rutherford said they believe Miller is a high caliber player that shouldn't require retention to move which is an odd statement. You retain to get maximum value or you retain to facilitate a deal. There's nothing that says if he's a good player you don't have to retain. The situation dictates it. That's what's making me think they really covet that retention cap space to get better instead of using it in a Miller trade to get an extra 2nd round pick. If they're against retention, the asking price would be quite high if retention is involved and they'd be asking for both a nice impact roster player plus 1st plus great prospect and I believe that's scaring away teams and straight up eliminating teams from making an offer. That's the reason why the Rangers were able to make an offer while the other teams were kicking tires. The Rangers had ample space last year and they were planning on letting Strome walk. They were one of the few teams that could acquire Miller's 1.5 years remaining contract without retention and likely the only one that didn't need to bank up cap and could acquire him in December instead of at the last moment in March. Miller would be their 2C this season if they had acquired him and they wouldn't have to sign Trocheck.

They're still doubling down on no retention and I think that's fine. If they can't get the no retention trade they're happy with, they should keep him if the goal is to win next year and get 4 months of good hockey out of miller before trading him at the deadline. The mandate to improve the D plus they're already over the cap suggests a contract has to go out. Dollar for dollar, Miller is the last player they'd move if they're trying to compete next year. They'll spend the summer trying trade Miller with no retention for a deal they're happy with or move Garland or Myers for assets or if nothing shakes out, pay Arizona or Anaheim to take Pearson off their hands so they can be cap compliant.

Now you hear the Vancouver media say Vancouver's best deal for Miller was the March 2022 trade deadline. The Rangers made them an offer. Vancouver has 18 million people in their front office. Their front office thought they would solve all of their problems with a Miller trade. Dreger would on go on Sekeres and Price every week. He would say the Vancouver roster would have major turnover. Moving money is impossible. Thomas Dance wrote about wingers not having much value. Vancouver has so many wingers and those players have less value.

As this offseason has unfolded, one of the most notable trends has been the way that winger valuations have plummeted on the trade market:

• 85-point winger Kevin Fiala was acquired by the L.A. Kings for a first-round pick and a top prospect in Brock Faber that, fair or not, many in the industry viewed as a signing risk for anyone aside from the Minnesota Wild.
• The NHL’s sixth-leading goal scorer the past two seasons Alex DeBrincatwas traded for a package not too dissimilar from what J.P. Pageau netted two years ago (a first-, a second- and a third-round pick).
• The Washington Capitals were able to buy the final year of Connor Brown’s contract for a second-round draft pick. Arguably the Ottawa Senators jumped the market, selling Brown before most of the cap space available around the league dried up entirely.
• With one year and $7 million remaining on his contract, injury-plagued but still point per game winger Max Pacioretty had negative trade value. In order to move the full freight of his deal to the Carolina Hurricanes, the Vegas Golden Knights had to attach a 24-year-old right-handed defender in Dylan Coghlanto sweeten the pot.
• Fresh off of a 28-goal, nearly 60-point campaign 27-year-old Oliver Bjorkstrand was dealt by Columbus to the Seattle Kraken for a third-round pick and a fourth-round pick.
• The NHL’s third-leading scorer Jonathan Huberdeau, with one year remaining on his contract, was one of four assets dealt to the Flames in exchange for Matthew Tkachuk.

This trend was matched in free agency, where teams have been relatively cautious about spending on scoring wingers. Only nine unrestricted free agent wingers signed for deals valued above $4 million after the market opened on July 13, with several of those deals being relatively conservative themselves, including just two years of term for the likes of David Perron and Nino Niederreiter.

In the flat cap era, teams looking to shed salary are electing to jettison higher-priced wingers, rather than subtracting from their defence corps or their stable of centres. That dynamic is simultaneously driving a higher than usual supply of affordable scoring wingers on the trade market, while simultaneously lowering the demand for players of this ilk.

This should be obvious, but rival teams aren’t likely to surrender a premium asset for a Garland or Pearson-type in an environment where they can land a Bjorkstrand for a pair of mid-rounders. Or get paid to take on Pacioretty.

This is inconvenient in the extreme for a Canucks side that, in a perfect offseason, would’ve found ways to shed money from their top-six forward group and ideally from their surplus of scoring wingers. It’s a hard trick to pull off, however, when everybody else seems to have the same idea

 

[topshelf15]

I hope the Canucks can find a way to keep him...He is an excellent player and will be a huge hole in that lineup to fill

 

[Djp]

So is it looking like all those rumors for Jersey's 2nd overall pick was BS? which loser insider should we ignore?

it was absurd right from the get go, especially when you factor in the sge of a player traded for.

i coukd see under the old lottery rules that a team just missing the playoffs wins a top 3 pick thrn trades it fir someone who can help now…but such trades I see happening if you were trading fir an h PHL proven U22 player.

you also see Ottawa trade which is the sign of a desperate GM. That’s been the pattern of prior top 190 pick trades….Schneider fir 9 by a GM with a goalie at the end of his career wanting to extend the cup w8ndiw. Arizona wanting to make the playoffs traded for Stepan.

I hope the Canucks can find a way to keep him...He is an excellent player and will be a huge hole in that lineup to fill

the issue will Miller….se Klingberg stuff. I see Miller trying to do the same and teams balk. Not to mention the potential UFA market could also be a limiting factor where only those with space go after the big fisnph but there ends up being people still standing when the music ends.

 

[EP to EP back to EP]

Now you hear the Vancouver media say Vancouver's best deal for Miller was the March 2022 trade deadline. The Rangers made them an offer. Vancouver has 18 million people in their front office. Their front office thought they would solve all of their problems with a Miller trade. Dreger would on go on Sekeres and Price every week. He would say the Vancouver roster would have major turnover. Moving money is impossible. Thomas Dance wrote about wingers not having much value. Vancouver has so many wingers and those players have less value.

One thing we have learned with the new management is that our Media now knows absolutely nothing. They are making things up. I still read the crap that they say(when people post it here) but I take it with a grain of salt now.

If Miller produces and stays healthy, he will be worth a kings ransom at this years TDL. 30-40 pt guys get a 1st and 3rd-2nd at TDL. What will a PPG player get? Teams will always pay to get the guy who gives them the best shot at the cup. Look at what the Aves sent to get a 3rd liner in Montreal to put them over the top. Rangers gave a ton for Copp, etc etc etc. And these guys are all much lesser pieces than Miller.

All that said, I think he will extend after Kadri signs. Klingberg just fired his agent for bad advice, Kadri is dangling out there. Once Kadri signs for less than 8m, Miller will see that he will have issues next off season and take the best deal he can get, but demand 8 years for it.

 

[Killer Orcas]

As a Flames fan I'd be very interested in Horvat, but we'd want him long term at a reasonable contract. What would be your ask from Calgary?

I can't say I'm as interested in Miller. Flames want to lock up some contracts going forward and probably compete for 3-4 seasons or do a NYR type of sell off retool/rebuild over 2-3 seasons. I think the Flames would be able to put together a reasonably competitive package of either roster players or futures that would fit with what Vancouver wants.

I don't get why you'd move both Miller and Horvat though. If Miller is out, I assume you can keep Horvat. If Horvat is out, I don't understand why you wouldn't just give Miller Kadri money... unless you're basically saying you're trying to pick up an extra asset and use the extra assets towards sorting out the issues on the roster?

What I was getting at is getting the free asset in Kadri and using Miller and Horvat to get young controllable talent preferably to fix the blue line.

 

[Szechwan]

All of em.

Nobody knows squat about Van, if it doesn't get released by the team its more ego stroking speculation trying to sound important and stay relevant.

Looking at you drance, irf and satiar. All shit.

Drance was one of the few that was constantly pouring water on that specific rumour, stating it made zero sense for NJ. I get not liking the guy, but he doesn't often traffic in specific player rumours like a lot do in this market (looking at you Kuzma), just speculates a lot about overall team direction and management philosophy.

 

[Bankerguy]

Canucks management is pretty much saying
"you need to meet our demands or even overpay, otherwise we'll keep our 99 point gritty two-way Center, there is no wiggle room".
I have a feeling that their request is sky high, like a young RD with top pairing potential, 1st and a good youngish roster forward.
Isles, they ask for Dobson, NYR, they ask for Schneider, Carolina, Pesce etc. And, no team wants to obviously give up such key and high value piece for a forward that will need to be resigned at like 8 million a year.
I am not surprised that Jt. Miller hasnt been traded.

 

[IComeInPeace]

Our manangement group (likely) held out for a larger return for our best player.

In the meantime, teams moved on, cap space dwindled AND the league has more or less re-set what the going rate for a winger is (JTM is strong in the circle, and can play some center, but he’s primarily still a winger)…

At this point, as a Canucks fan, I’m forced to admit his value is way less than I expected it to be, and likely even far less than it was 2 weeks ago.

Hopefully JTM and his camp don’t want to risk injury or a lesser season next year and decrease their demands and re-sign before training camp.

Clearly, his value was never anywhere near what some Canuck fans thought/hoped.

 

[EP to EP back to EP]

Our manangement group (likely) held out for a larger return for our best player.

In the meantime, teams moved on, cap space dwindled AND the league has more or less re-set what the going rate for a winger is (JTM is strong in the circle, and can play some center, but he’s primarily still a winger)…

At this point, as a Canucks fan, I’m forced to admit his value is way less than I expected it to be, and likely even far less than it was 2 weeks ago.

Hopefully JTM and his camp don’t want to risk injury or a lesser season next year and decrease their demands and re-sign before training camp.

Clearly, his value was never anywhere near what some Canuck fans thought/hoped.

He'll have a ton of value at TDL again when 16 teams want the best shot at winning the cup possible.

 

[RangerBoy]

 

[Love]

Our manangement group (likely) held out for a larger return for our best player.

In the meantime, teams moved on, cap space dwindled AND the league has more or less re-set what the going rate for a winger is (JTM is strong in the circle, and can play some center, but he’s primarily still a winger)…

At this point, as a Canucks fan, I’m forced to admit his value is way less than I expected it to be, and likely even far less than it was 2 weeks ago.

Hopefully JTM and his camp don’t want to risk injury or a lesser season next year and decrease their demands and re-sign before training camp.

Clearly, his value was never anywhere near what some Canuck fans thought/hoped.

Last year Miller played 75% of his ice time at C and he had the best season of his career.

He is a centre.

 

[Takurcitee]

I mean it's so funny that there are people that thought that he can retain 2oa like he is gonna have negative value pretty soon

 

[Jerzey Devil]

Miller is probably asking for too much on his next contract (which is also probably why they didn’t want to give other teams permission to speak with his agent) and Vancouver is probably asking for too big of a return. Maybe a major injury will cause some GM to make a desperation move for him as next season goes along.

 

[Takurcitee]

He is gonna be ultimate rental at the tdl if he is healthy but team that gonna give him 8x7 or 8x8 is gonna regret that when he regresses into bottom six player in few years

 

[Canuck86]

In the meantime, teams moved on, cap space dwindled AND the league has more or less re-set what the going rate for a winger is (JTM is strong in the circle, and can play some center, but he’s primarily still a winger)…

JT played all year at C in his 99pt season, he stated that he liked playing center and liked having the added responsibility

I mean it's so funny that there are people that thought that he can retain 2oa like he is gonna have negative value pretty soon

a 99pt player being paid under 6m will have negative value...ya okay then!

 

[EP to EP back to EP]

Miller is probably asking for too much on his next contract (which is also probably why they didn’t want to give other teams permission to speak with his agent) and Vancouver is probably asking for too big of a return. Maybe a major injury will cause some GM to make a desperation move for him as next season goes along.

I think when Kadri signs, Miller won't be long after. Klingberg already screwed himself over. 30+ year olds now are seeing 1-2 year contracts and going from contract to contract. If Miller wants 6-8 years, his AAV ask needs to come down and he knows it. Kadri will just be the proof he needs. Same with Klingberg.

Edit: Take into account the cap freeze until 24-25 means no new cap for a few more years, teams won't take as big of a risk on older players.

 

[Takurcitee]

JT played all year at C in his 99pt season, he stated that he liked playing center and liked having the added responsibility


a 99pt player being paid under 6m will have negative value...ya okay then!

I mean his next contract if u look in another post i said he is gonna be ultimate rental but after that he is gonna ask too much and with his age that contract gonna be pretty bad