Rumor: ALL PURPOSE JT MILLER THREAD PT2 - It's Been 84 Years....

[OtherThingsILike]

Miller wouldnt be a Canuck today if all it took was a #2/3 Dman and a couple of 2nd rounders to get him.

Marino isn't just a #2 or #3 Dman, he's an RD. According to the Canucks beat writer, he's better than any of the ones the Canucks have and should play on the top pairing alongside Hughes.

Heck you can argue the Canucks wouldnt even be getting a profit on their original investment of

1st and 3rd that they traded to Tampa to get Miller originally.

Why would they get a profit on their original investment? Miller doesn't have as many years on his contract as he did then.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

This is where the intentional ambiguity and conflating come into play by Canucks fans.

Obviously J.T. Miller got 99 points last season. So you can call him a 100 point player in the literal sense that he achieved such an accomplishment last season. However, does he do that again simply because he just did it last season? That's a different discussion and looking at the input from Canucks fans on their own board, many of them think he won't repeat his career high and thus, want to try to capitalize while he's at his greatest.

Most GMs don't seem to view him as a 100 point player in the sense that you can rely on him to replicate that, otherwise the interest should've been greater, both in terms of quantity of teams wanting him and in terms of quality when regarding what they'd pay.

He got 100 points last season, but many Canucks fans and apparently GMs don't see him as a player that, majority of the time, will be that kind of player. Especially moving forward.

Calling him a 100 point player is disingenuous if you're trying to advertise him as a guy who's likely to continue to be that guy. Otherwise, that accomplishment means nothing to teams who are only concerned with what he'll do for them in the future.

Most Canuck fans see him as an 85 point player which he’s been the last 3 years.
Talk about hyperbole!

 

[AHLdepth]

Why would they get a profit on their original investment? Miller doesn't have as many years on his contract as he did then.

You know he's actually improved since he got here right?

 

[benedictTavares]

Sign him to an extension. Pay to clear cap like other teams have. Problem solved.

 

[PuckLuck3043]

Fact of the matter is he has no trade protection so the Canucks are in no rush until they get their ask or close to it. The fact his cap hit is $5.25 million is a cherry on top as he can be structured into many different deals, retention or not! I think he ends up on the Rangers if they lose out on Kadri, one of Kakko, Schneider or Lafrenier will probably be in the deal. I could see the Canucks only wanting Schneider out of the deal or Lafrenier at this point due to having a ton of wingers and need a C or D prospect coming back in return, Lafrenier just because of potential and status as 1st overall.

What? The Rangers signed Trocheck and aren't in on Kadri. If there was a trade(which there won't be) Vancouver is not getting any of those players. The Rangers already supposedly offered Chytil + Lundkvist + 2023 1st and it was turned down.

 

[OtherThingsILike]

View attachment 569501

You know he's actually improved since he got here right?

He's not 4x the player he was when he got there.

 

[AHLdepth]

View attachment 569501

He's not 4x the player he was when he got there.

Umm, no he's not, did I miss something where I accidently responded to something claiming he was 4x as valuable? I was just claiming that he is a better player now then he was when we traded for him, so the return would likely be higher

 

[OtherThingsILike]

Umm, no he's not, did I miss something where I accidently responded to something claiming he was 4x as valuable? I was just claiming that he is a better player now then he was when we traded for him, so the return would likely be higher

He was signed for four years when you traded for him, so there's no reason for the return to be higher now, unless he's really that much better.

 

[deckercky]

Marino isn't just a #2 or #3 Dman, he's an RD. According to the Canucks beat writer, he's better than any of the ones the Canucks have and should play on the top pairing alongside Hughes.

Marino is probably a #4, but he seems like he would be a good fit stylistically for Hughes.

 

[deckercky]

He was signed for four years when you traded for him, so there's no reason for the return to be higher now, unless he's really that much better.

He was traded by Tampa after he had a poor season, and when they were in a cap crunch and desperate to move cap.

He broke out afterwards.

Also, NHL trade value isn't as simple as 4x the term = 4x the value. Compare Eichel's return to a typical first liner's trade deadline return and it's maybe double (obviously other things there deflating his value a bit, but without those things he wouldn't be available).

 

[OtherThingsILike]

Marino is probably a #4, but he seems like he would be a good fit stylistically for Hughes.

Marino is at worst a #3D.

He was traded by Tampa after he had a poor season, and when they were in a cap crunch and desperate to move cap.

He broke out afterwards.

Also, NHL trade value isn't as simple as 4x the term = 4x the value. Compare Eichel's return to a typical first liner's trade deadline return and it's maybe double (obviously other things there deflating his value a bit, but without those things he wouldn't be available).

I know that NHL trade value isn't as simple as 4x the term = 4x the value. In some cases, players have less value because there's more term.
In this case, Miller was already valuable as a 40-50 point middle six winger. A 100-point winger for one season's value does not exceed the value of a 40-50 point winger singed for four seasons, particularly if the 100-point season is an extreme outlier.

 

[Canuck86]

I think you can say that he's been closer to ppg his last few years. However, there is probably a decline coming similar to most players on the wrong side of 30. I'd place him as a 70 point player (25-45) over the next 5 years.

So if I'm trading for him as a rental, he'd probably get a Giroux type return and if I'm trading to re-sign him, you'd probably throw in an extra first or something along those lines.

JT and Giroux aren't the same though in my mind.

JT- Zero NTC, can be traded to 31 teams
Giroux- NMC, waived for 1 team

Kind of like what Kesler did to the Canucks, it was Pit or Ana, then it was just Anaheim. Personally athletes make really good money NONE of them should have NTC/NMC in my mind. I would play hockey in Iceland or South Korea or New Zealand or Columbus for NHL League minimum and I would be damn happy about it.

Regarding JT, Canuck fans are saying since he joined us he has been over a PPG player and played in all situations. Of course he was'nt a PPG player his entire career, hence why he got traded a couple times and landed on a team where he could be that all situation player playing 20min a night and he proved he was more than capable of doing that and producing at a PPG pace.

MOD

 

[Canuck86]

He was traded by Tampa after he had a poor season, and when they were in a cap crunch and desperate to move cap.

He broke out afterwards.

Also, NHL trade value isn't as simple as 4x the term = 4x the value. Compare Eichel's return to a typical first liner's trade deadline return and it's maybe double (obviously other things there deflating his value a bit, but without those things he wouldn't be available).

Bingo!!!

Pacioretty just got traded for future considerations, don't think any teams fan base would say he is a useless plug who can't play or score goals. It was a cap dump by Vegas, Tampa moved cap in trading JT and they recouped a 1st they traded to add a player that helped them win 2 cups before leaving as a UFA

If a NYI fan can chime in, I know they just extended Pulock last fall and he has a full NTC currently but would Isles fans be willing to trade him in a deal with Vancouver based around JT Miller extended and possible some other pieces to make it a bigger deal? Will GM L.L signed Dobson to a bridge or long term deal you think? Would they extend Mayfield now that his bargain contract has 1 year left before FA at age 30 I believe?

Thank you

 

[Canucks LB]

I was just pointing out the other side of the coin 2 years this way vs 2 years that way. Sorry if you didn't get that.

Fair enough

 

[AHLdepth]

He was signed for four years when you traded for him, so there's no reason for the return to be higher now, unless he's really that much better.

Well then I certainly hope that Allvin signs him to an 8 year deal then trades him, that's 8x the value baby!

I'll stop being dumb, I know as you do, that yes the number of years on a contract can subtract or add some value, but surely in this context you must know that yes, he is considerably better

 

[Bankerguy]

Guy scores 99 points. "well, he's really not even a 90 point player"
ONLY ON HF lol

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

Guy scores 99 points. "well, he's really not even a 90 point player"
ONLY ON HF lol

I mean, he did it once in a year where scoring was higher then its been at any time in the last 20+ years. His career high outside of last year is 70 points once, and then 56 before that.


Nobody considers Nazem Kadri an 80 point player after last year either...

 

[oceanchild]

I mean, he did it once in a year where scoring was higher then its been at any time in the last 20+ years. His career high outside of last year is 70 points once, and then 56 before that.


Nobody considers Nazem Kadri an 80 point player after last year either...

I bet you he gets paid like one, which is the only
Metric that matters

 

[ZachaFlockaFlame]

I think Lou comes in and trades for him but I don't know what an Islander-Vancouver trade would look like tbh.

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

I bet you he gets paid like one, which is the only
Metric that matters

He's not even going to get paid like one... He's coming back to Colorado for ~6.5 or signing somewhere else for ~7.5. Nowhere close to 90 point player money.



....But also what kind of logic is that? How is that the only thing that matters?

 

[EP to EP back to EP]

All I'm trying to say is he is a 80 point player now in his peak years, and probably a 70 point player in his early 30s.

Hey, last year Matthews only put up 66 points, and was under a ppg his first 2 years. Therefor he sucks and has no value.

 

[wintersej]

Calling Miller a PPG player seems totally fair.

A PPG player who plays a physical game! Yum!

But, he is approaching 30, needs a long term deal, and has never been known for being very good in his own end.

Canucks fans want to point to the positives, fans of other teams are gonna down play how awesome he is right now and talk about the negatives.

Same old dance as every HFBoards trade thread

Seems like Rutherford was looking for a return that ignored the negatives, too, which is a totally reasonable stance. But, how does Miller feel about having his name in trade talks all this time? Will he even re-sign at this point? Does Rutherford end up having to take one of the lesser deals or lose him for nothing? We will see!

 

[EP to EP back to EP]

Calling Miller a PPG player seems totally fair.

A PPG player who plays a physical game! Yum!

But, he is approaching 30, needs a long term deal, and has never been known for being very good in his own end.

Canucks fans want to point to the positives, fans of other teams are gonna down play how awesome he is right now and talk about the negatives.

Same old dance as every HFBoards trade thread

Seems like Rutherford was looking for a return that ignored the negatives, too, which is a totally reasonable stance. But, how does Miller feel about having his name in trade talks all this time? Will he even re-sign at this point? Does Rutherford end up having to take one of the lesser deals or lose him for nothing? We will see!

He really isn't terrible in his own end. And he PKs. His only real issue is that if a play f***s up, he will get pissy and skate off instead of backcheck.

That being said, he more than makes up for that with his play the other 99% of the time.

 

[docbenton]

Calling Miller a PPG player seems totally fair.

A PPG player who plays a physical game! Yum!

But, he is approaching 30, needs a long term deal, and has never been known for being very good in his own end.

Canucks fans want to point to the positives, fans of other teams are gonna down play how awesome he is right now and talk about the negatives.

Same old dance as every HFBoards trade thread

Seems like Rutherford was looking for a return that ignored the negatives, too, which is a totally reasonable stance. But, how does Miller feel about having his name in trade talks all this time? Will he even re-sign at this point? Does Rutherford end up having to take one of the lesser deals or lose him for nothing? We will see!

The idea that he's not good in his own end is bizarre to me. Yes once or twice he can be caught not backchecking as hard as he could (who hasn't?), but he's a top PKer, wins faceoffs, wins puck battles, and is generally a very strong 200ft player deservedly used in all situations.

 

[TGWL]

In 2 of his last 4 years, he has 47 points... your banking his value on the other 2 years, from his career, that skew his numbers?

Did you just use a short covid year to downplay 47 points? Nobody values Muzzin like it's 10 years ago.