Player Discussion All Purpose Goaltending Thread

Irie

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Nov 14, 2010
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Nope. I did however spent last summer trying to learn as much as I could about how to scout players so I can better evaluate what I’m seeing. This hand tracking this year was my first iteration of giving it a try.

It’s not perfect. At all. I’m sure I’m wrongly assigning blame in some circumstances. However like I said - it’s not close with Comrie being worse than the others. If you want to go through and give it a shot yourself id encourage it - you may be remembering what you saw incorrectly. Which is why I wanted to have the data to refer back on.

There are a lot of misconceptions about goalies and making saves for people that haven't actually stood in front of 90+ mph shots.

First is that goalies track and react to the puck. The puck travels so fast that the reaction a goalie has is based mostly on the body language of the shooter (weight forward, weight backward, etc), and the angle the stick as it hits the ice on the shot, and not the actual puck as it is on it's way to the net.

A high velocity slapshot from the blueline will sometimes beat good goalies cleanly even when there is no screen in front of him. Most shots are much closer. They are past a goalie before there is time for any human to physically react. That would always be the case if the goalie could not see the shooter's mechanics, which enables them to anticipate where the puck will be, even though it is often moving faster than they can humanly track.

There is a reason why shots taken from the blueline that are tipped way out near the shooter still often beat goalies - it is because the goalies are reacting to the shot, not the tip. There is not enough time to react to the tip and change reflexes to stop the puck in it's new trajectory, even though there is sometimes nothing screening the goalie from seeing the change in direction. It just happens too fast for humans to react and make the save.

The equalizer is playing out farther. The farther out from the goalline, the less net will be exposed, and even on tips, the chances the redirects will find the net and not a goalie pads is smaller.

There is still always going to be some net that a puck can find. Shots that hit a post and go into the net are good shots. Goalies have very little chance to stop those.

When a goalie is hugging the post because the puck is behind the net, and a pass moves the puck out above the slot, and a goalie pushes out to challenge the one timer that they know is coming, they are not really playing the puck, they are playing the odds that they put themselves into a position where the puck has less chance of getting by them from the shooters location. If the shot is perfectly placed post and in, unless the goalie gets lucky and it clips part of his gear, it is just a good play on the part of the shooter and not the goalies fault.

Lateral puck movement through open passing lanes is what this team really struggles with. Should goalies make saves when they have to slide across the crease to challenge a quick one-timer? Some goalies are good at these kinds of saves (Saros is. Levi seems to be too. UPL is mixed, but he moves quickly and is better at it than a lot of goalies. Comries is not really strong in this regard). Personally I want the D to limit these types of chances. There is a ton of luck involved when making those types of saves. If the shooter shoots it into your pads, or back off the post and into the net, these are variables that goalies have zero control over and are at the mercy of the luck of the shot.

If you are expecting the Sabres goalies to make saves on those plays, then I can see how tracking Comrie's games would leave you wanting more while playing behind the Sabres. I want the D to always let the goalie take the shooter so he can step out of the crease and challenge the puck and I want the D to take away the open pass and close the passing lanes. That is the scenario where a lot of good goalies in the NHL put up good numbers, but when asked to play the pass more than the shooter, it is where their numbers drop off a cliff.

Sorry if this at all sounds condescending, that is not my intent. This post was meant to clarify my position on what I expect from goalies and from team D and set a criteria of what I expect from both when I evaluate plays and goals against. I also feel strongly that most goalies in the league are going to struggle metrics-wise when asked to play for a team that plays D the way the Sabres did last season.
 

RefsIdeas

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Jul 2, 2011
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There are a lot of misconceptions about goalies and making saves for people that haven't actually stood in front of 90+ mph shots.

First is that goalies track and react to the puck. The puck travels so fast that the reaction a goalie has is based mostly on the body language of the shooter (weight forward, weight backward, etc), and the angle the stick as it hits the ice on the shot, and not the actual puck as it is on it's way to the net.

A high velocity slapshot from the blueline will sometimes beat good goalies cleanly even when there is no screen in front of him. Most shots are much closer. They are past a goalie before there is time for any human to physically react. That would always be the case if the goalie could not see the shooter's mechanics, which enables them to anticipate where the puck will be, even though it is often moving faster than they can humanly track.

There is a reason why shots taken from the blueline that are tipped way out near the shooter still often beat goalies - it is because the goalies are reacting to the shot, not the tip. There is not enough time to react to the tip and change reflexes to stop the puck in it's new trajectory, even though there is sometimes nothing screening the goalie from seeing the change in direction. It just happens too fast for humans to react and make the save.

The equalizer is playing out farther. The farther out from the goalline, the less net will be exposed, and even on tips, the chances the redirects will find the net and not a goalie pads is smaller.

There is still always going to be some net that a puck can find. Shots that hit a post and go into the net are good shots. Goalies have very little chance to stop those.

When a goalie is hugging the post because the puck is behind the net, and a pass moves the puck out above the slot, and a goalie pushes out to challenge the one timer that they know is coming, they are not really playing the puck, they are playing the odds that they put themselves into a position where the puck has less chance of getting by them from the shooters location. If the shot is perfectly placed post and in, unless the goalie gets lucky and it clips part of his gear, it is just a good play on the part of the shooter and not the goalies fault.

Lateral puck movement through open passing lanes is what this team really struggles with. Should goalies make saves when they have to slide across the crease to challenge a quick one-timer? Some goalies are good at these kinds of saves (Saros is. Levi seems to be too. UPL is mixed, but he moves quickly and is better at it than a lot of goalies. Comries is not really strong in this regard). Personally I want the D to limit these types of chances. There is a ton of luck involved when making those types of saves. If the shooter shoots it into your pads, or back off the post and into the net, these are variables that goalies have zero control over and are at the mercy of the luck of the shot.

If you are expecting the Sabres goalies to make saves on those plays, then I can see how tracking Comrie's games would leave you wanting more while playing behind the Sabres. I want the D to always let the goalie take the shooter so he can step out of the crease and challenge the puck and I want the D to take away the open pass and close the passing lanes. That is the scenario where a lot of good goalies in the NHL put up good numbers, but when asked to play the pass more than the shooter, it is where their numbers drop off a cliff.

Sorry if this at all sounds condescending, that is not my intent. This post was meant to clarify my position on what I expect from goalies and from team D and set a criteria of what I expect from both when I evaluate plays and goals against. I also feel strongly that most goalies in the league are going to struggle metrics-wise when asked to play for a team that plays D the way the Sabres did last season.
I understand everything you said. There was no new information there for me, sorry.
 

oldgoalie

Goaltending matters.
Jan 7, 2004
13,372
6,272
VA
There are a lot of misconceptions about goalies and making saves for people that haven't actually stood in front of 90+ mph shots.

First is that goalies track and react to the puck. The puck travels so fast that the reaction a goalie has is based mostly on the body language of the shooter (weight forward, weight backward, etc), and the angle the stick as it hits the ice on the shot, and not the actual puck as it is on it's way to the net.

A high velocity slapshot from the blueline will sometimes beat good goalies cleanly even when there is no screen in front of him. Most shots are much closer. They are past a goalie before there is time for any human to physically react. That would always be the case if the goalie could not see the shooter's mechanics, which enables them to anticipate where the puck will be, even though it is often moving faster than they can humanly track.

There is a reason why shots taken from the blueline that are tipped way out near the shooter still often beat goalies - it is because the goalies are reacting to the shot, not the tip. There is not enough time to react to the tip and change reflexes to stop the puck in it's new trajectory, even though there is sometimes nothing screening the goalie from seeing the change in direction. It just happens too fast for humans to react and make the save.

The equalizer is playing out farther. The farther out from the goalline, the less net will be exposed, and even on tips, the chances the redirects will find the net and not a goalie pads is smaller.

There is still always going to be some net that a puck can find. Shots that hit a post and go into the net are good shots. Goalies have very little chance to stop those.

When a goalie is hugging the post because the puck is behind the net, and a pass moves the puck out above the slot, and a goalie pushes out to challenge the one timer that they know is coming, they are not really playing the puck, they are playing the odds that they put themselves into a position where the puck has less chance of getting by them from the shooters location. If the shot is perfectly placed post and in, unless the goalie gets lucky and it clips part of his gear, it is just a good play on the part of the shooter and not the goalies fault.

Lateral puck movement through open passing lanes is what this team really struggles with. Should goalies make saves when they have to slide across the crease to challenge a quick one-timer? Some goalies are good at these kinds of saves (Saros is. Levi seems to be too. UPL is mixed, but he moves quickly and is better at it than a lot of goalies. Comries is not really strong in this regard). Personally I want the D to limit these types of chances. There is a ton of luck involved when making those types of saves. If the shooter shoots it into your pads, or back off the post and into the net, these are variables that goalies have zero control over and are at the mercy of the luck of the shot.

If you are expecting the Sabres goalies to make saves on those plays, then I can see how tracking Comrie's games would leave you wanting more while playing behind the Sabres. I want the D to always let the goalie take the shooter so he can step out of the crease and challenge the puck and I want the D to take away the open pass and close the passing lanes. That is the scenario where a lot of good goalies in the NHL put up good numbers, but when asked to play the pass more than the shooter, it is where their numbers drop off a cliff.

Sorry if this at all sounds condescending, that is not my intent. This post was meant to clarify my position on what I expect from goalies and from team D and set a criteria of what I expect from both when I evaluate plays and goals against. I also feel strongly that most goalies in the league are going to struggle metrics-wise when asked to play for a team that plays D the way the Sabres did last season.
I loved this post. Loved it. Hopefully some folks took something away from your description.
 

Fezzy126

Rebuilding...
May 10, 2017
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Nope. I did however spent last summer trying to learn as much as I could about how to scout players so I can better evaluate what I’m seeing. This hand tracking this year was my first iteration of giving it a try.

It’s not perfect. At all. I’m sure I’m wrongly assigning blame in some circumstances. However like I said - it’s not close with Comrie being worse than the others. If you want to go through and give it a shot yourself id encourage it - you may be remembering what you saw incorrectly. Which is why I wanted to have the data to refer back on.

I'm not sure that I've never seen a goalie get beaten clean glove hand as much as UPL was last year. I don't remember exactly which game it was, but I can remember an opposing team's announcers making a comment about the book being out about UPL's weakness (his glove), and teams were specifically targeting him glove side.

That along with how small he makes himself in goal leave me very pessimistic about his future. I'm not writing him off, he's still young and can certainly improve, but I remember thinking that his 'good' games featured a lot of the other team missing their chances more than him being solid in net.

When Comrie was healthy and had a healthy defense, I thought he was solid, or at the very least average, with the Dallas game being the big exception. So while the numbers for the two are similar, I liked Comrie more than UPL on the season.

Ultimately, I think Adams lets them battle for the backup job or 1b role depending on how much of load they want to give Levi. The loser likely gets traded early in the season.
 

Zman5778

Moderator
Oct 4, 2005
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Cressona/Reading, PA
Ultimately, I think Adams lets them battle for the backup job or 1b role depending on how much of load they want to give Levi. The loser likely gets traded early in the season.

I still think we ultimately go with a 3 man rotation.

Levi gets 35 games -- pretty much regardless of how he plays.
UPL and Comrie split the rest.

It's not ideal, but Adams seems so risk-averse that he might be paralyzing himself in this regard.
 

Irie

Registered User
Nov 14, 2010
4,684
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Pacific Northwest
I understand everything you said. There was no new information there for me, sorry.

So how do you evaluate goals against?

Here is a game that was pretty controversial during the season in the GBU thread after.


Comrie gave up 4 goals in a 4-3 loss on only 22 shots, and everyone came out blaming him for the loss.

First goal, Eberle with a redirect from the top of the crease on the PP. Once again, stopping close in re-directs is mostly luck more than skill. Comrie gets a piece but it wasn't enough.

Second Goal, Gourde gets behind the D and tips the crossing pass. Perfectly placed tip, bad defensive play. I can't fault a goalie for that goal.

Third goal, Beniers with a put back after a save and an unlucky bounce off the post. Comrie makes the initial save and loses sight of the puck. Joker has got to tie up Beniers there. The D has to help out their goalies, which they failed to do so often last season.

4th goal, Comrie is on the post where he needs to be, pass goes to the high slot where there is a huge lane that the D ignored and Schultz skates right into a prime scoring area. Comrie comes out to challenge, and Schultz blasts the shot low and just inside the post. Really great shot with great placement. Tough to blame a goalie for that play.

Will goalies sometimes make saves on all of those goals? yep. Will they make saves most of the time on those plays? Nope. Yet this board overwhelmingly put most of the blame of the loss on goaltending, with the exception of @Chainshot who called out the team D out for letting the goalie down.

I honestly believe that most people on this board think that the D is fine and that the goaltending stats are indicative of poor goaltending, when in fact it was the D that was by and far the biggest issue with the goals against last season. Goaltending just was no where near good enough to overcome the terrible defensive play. But I will submit again, most goalies in the league will not be good enough to overcome that poor defensive play.
 

Fjordy

私たちはそうでした - 私たちはそうではありません。
Jun 20, 2018
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Comrie played 19 games this season, and yet you have no problems saying that he's a poor NHL goaltender.
Because he has not proved that he is a good goalie. Let's call Tokarski or Houser good NHL goaltenders then, why are they worse than Comrie? I gave the facts that this guy had 47 NHL games and most of them were bad.
 

dortt

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Sep 21, 2018
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If you take out the Dallas game where the team was a complete no-show in front of Comrie (granted, he let in a couple of stinkers, but still).............

His numbers become better than UPLs.

The thing you are forgetting is the Sabres played a game just as bad in front of UPL against Minnesota. UPL made enough big saves to pull out a win

The Dallas game is no excuse for Comrie since both goalies had to deal with a similar game

Anyone on this board that wants a goalie that can steal games for this team without the team correcting the embarrassingly awful defensive coverage in their own zone should be pushing for Saros, because he is about the only option with the skill set to be a difference maker given the conditions.

I posted the only realistic trade to get Saros plus a few other assets. Almost nobody wanted to give up the price that would cost, that being Thompson (I had proposed Thompson for Saros, Novak, Fabbro, and a 1st)
 

Sabresfansince1980

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There are a lot of misconceptions about goalies and making saves for people that haven't actually stood in front of 90+ mph shots.

First is that goalies track and react to the puck. The puck travels so fast that the reaction a goalie has is based mostly on the body language of the shooter (weight forward, weight backward, etc), and the angle the stick as it hits the ice on the shot, and not the actual puck as it is on it's way to the net.

A high velocity slapshot from the blueline will sometimes beat good goalies cleanly even when there is no screen in front of him. Most shots are much closer. They are past a goalie before there is time for any human to physically react. That would always be the case if the goalie could not see the shooter's mechanics, which enables them to anticipate where the puck will be, even though it is often moving faster than they can humanly track.

There is a reason why shots taken from the blueline that are tipped way out near the shooter still often beat goalies - it is because the goalies are reacting to the shot, not the tip. There is not enough time to react to the tip and change reflexes to stop the puck in it's new trajectory, even though there is sometimes nothing screening the goalie from seeing the change in direction. It just happens too fast for humans to react and make the save.

The equalizer is playing out farther. The farther out from the goalline, the less net will be exposed, and even on tips, the chances the redirects will find the net and not a goalie pads is smaller.

There is still always going to be some net that a puck can find. Shots that hit a post and go into the net are good shots. Goalies have very little chance to stop those.

When a goalie is hugging the post because the puck is behind the net, and a pass moves the puck out above the slot, and a goalie pushes out to challenge the one timer that they know is coming, they are not really playing the puck, they are playing the odds that they put themselves into a position where the puck has less chance of getting by them from the shooters location. If the shot is perfectly placed post and in, unless the goalie gets lucky and it clips part of his gear, it is just a good play on the part of the shooter and not the goalies fault.

Lateral puck movement through open passing lanes is what this team really struggles with. Should goalies make saves when they have to slide across the crease to challenge a quick one-timer? Some goalies are good at these kinds of saves (Saros is. Levi seems to be too. UPL is mixed, but he moves quickly and is better at it than a lot of goalies. Comries is not really strong in this regard). Personally I want the D to limit these types of chances. There is a ton of luck involved when making those types of saves. If the shooter shoots it into your pads, or back off the post and into the net, these are variables that goalies have zero control over and are at the mercy of the luck of the shot.

If you are expecting the Sabres goalies to make saves on those plays, then I can see how tracking Comrie's games would leave you wanting more while playing behind the Sabres. I want the D to always let the goalie take the shooter so he can step out of the crease and challenge the puck and I want the D to take away the open pass and close the passing lanes. That is the scenario where a lot of good goalies in the NHL put up good numbers, but when asked to play the pass more than the shooter, it is where their numbers drop off a cliff.

Sorry if this at all sounds condescending, that is not my intent. This post was meant to clarify my position on what I expect from goalies and from team D and set a criteria of what I expect from both when I evaluate plays and goals against. I also feel strongly that most goalies in the league are going to struggle metrics-wise when asked to play for a team that plays D the way the Sabres did last season.
So how do you evaluate goals against?

Here is a game that was pretty controversial during the season in the GBU thread after.


Comrie gave up 4 goals in a 4-3 loss on only 22 shots, and everyone came out blaming him for the loss.

First goal, Eberle with a redirect from the top of the crease on the PP. Once again, stopping close in re-directs is mostly luck more than skill. Comrie gets a piece but it wasn't enough.

Second Goal, Gourde gets behind the D and tips the crossing pass. Perfectly placed tip, bad defensive play. I can't fault a goalie for that goal.

Third goal, Beniers with a put back after a save and an unlucky bounce off the post. Comrie makes the initial save and loses sight of the puck. Joker has got to tie up Beniers there. The D has to help out their goalies, which they failed to do so often last season.

4th goal, Comrie is on the post where he needs to be, pass goes to the high slot where there is a huge lane that the D ignored and Schultz skates right into a prime scoring area. Comrie comes out to challenge, and Schultz blasts the shot low and just inside the post. Really great shot with great placement. Tough to blame a goalie for that play.

Will goalies sometimes make saves on all of those goals? yep. Will they make saves most of the time on those plays? Nope. Yet this board overwhelmingly put most of the blame of the loss on goaltending, with the exception of @Chainshot who called out the team D out for letting the goalie down.

I honestly believe that most people on this board think that the D is fine and that the goaltending stats are indicative of poor goaltending, when in fact it was the D that was by and far the biggest issue with the goals against last season. Goaltending just was no where near good enough to overcome the terrible defensive play. But I will submit again, most goalies in the league will not be good enough to overcome that poor defensive play.
For most of last season, I evaluated every goal against from the immediate replays during the game to decide how much was the goalie's fault vs the defense. As best I can recall it was around an 80/20 split, with team defense being most at fault. As for the 20%, I saw about an even amount of poor GA from each of CA, UPL, and EC, with the following caveats -

Anderson - phenomenal at anticipating the pass to the open man. His experience allowed him to see the game at a slower speed and anticipate the HDSCs. He did have some pretty bad moments though getting beaten clean sometimes, and obviously he couldn't keep up the pace of a starter anymore.

Comrie - So many unfair HDSCs he couldn't do anything about, but his size sometimes allowed shots/tips that extra space to get through or bounce off and become an easy tap in. He got out of position often but sometimes due to the frantic mess developing from his poor team defense. Not quite athletic enough to make up the difference.

UPL - Has the size and athleticism that Comrie doesn't, and had more "wow" saves during the season as a result. Sometimes the big save was making up for his own poor positioning (again the mess in front of him played a part). I wish he would play bigger but he has time to develop. No 24-25 yr old goalie should be written off as anything yet. I believe what room he has to improve, along with his physical abilities, will make him a solid goalie behind a team that plays average-good defense...not the dumpster fire they had.

If one has to go, Comrie is the easy answer for me because he just doesn't have much potential to improve, or the size and abilities to make up for that.
 

Fezzy126

Rebuilding...
May 10, 2017
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The thing you are forgetting is the Sabres played a game just as bad in front of UPL against Minnesota. UPL made enough big saves to pull out a win

The Dallas game is no excuse for Comrie since both goalies had to deal with a similar game



I posted the only realistic trade to get Saros plus a few other assets. Almost nobody wanted to give up the price that would cost, that being Thompson (I had proposed Thompson for Saros, Novak, Fabbro, and a 1st)


Looking at it from a strictly analytical standpoint, it's important to separate a goalie's bad game from bad team defense, and cases where you have both.

Here's a list of the team's worst xGA games:

1689515546782.png


Here's a list of the worst GSAx games:

1689516761295.png


There is very little overlap between games with extreme xGA (bad team) and GSAx (bad goalie).

I think the Dallas game is an example of both, where both the team and Comrie were having an off night, which makes sense right? I mean you don't give up 10 goals in an NHL game unless everyone shits the bed... Comrie's next worse game is the VGK game, where I think everyone would agree that the xG values are garbage. The Sabres gave up like 25 odd man breaks and breakaways, it was one of the worst games they played all year defensively, despite what the xGA value says.

For UPL, the game to throw out the window is the 3/19 Bruins or the Flames game. Similar to the Dallas game, I thought the team was bad and UPL was weak in those games. In the 3/2 Bruins game the team just gave up after giving up 2 ENG's, and hung UPL out to dry for late goals, but analytically UPL wasn't that bad with a -0.52 GSAx (the number in the chart above is slightly off because it's a team chart that includes the ENGs).

As I mentioned before, there are going to be games where the goalie is off, the team is off, or both. The bottom line is that we need the coaching staff to be better in tune with when to make a change in net, either to light a fire under the team, or to preserve a goalie's confidence. If the staff had made a few more moves then both UPL's and Comrie's numbers might look a whole lot different.
 
Last edited:

Fezzy126

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May 10, 2017
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I still think we ultimately go with a 3 man rotation.

Levi gets 35 games -- pretty much regardless of how he plays.
UPL and Comrie split the rest.

It's not ideal, but Adams seems so risk-averse that he might be paralyzing himself in this regard.

Not ideal is right... We have three young goalies and need to maximize their practice reps and time with the coaches. So I really hope they don't plan to split the net three ways for too long. I mean, if it's a month or two into the regular season then so be it, but long term it's a bad plan.

KA initially mentioned that having 3 goalies isn't ideal before he sorta backtracked and said he likes all 3 and would be willing to carry 3 again. If I'm trying to read the tea leaves on the situation, I don't think he's going to carry 3 for any longer than he has to, but he's going to be careful with his words to avoid looking desperate.
  • If he decides that he should trade UPL, I think he waits for someone to meet his value.
  • If it's Comrie, I could see him try to pass Comrie through waivers first to facilitate a trade so another team could use him as their organization's #3, even if the return just includes future considerations.
 

RefsIdeas

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So how do you evaluate goals against?

Here is a game that was pretty controversial during the season in the GBU thread after.


Comrie gave up 4 goals in a 4-3 loss on only 22 shots, and everyone came out blaming him for the loss.

First goal, Eberle with a redirect from the top of the crease on the PP. Once again, stopping close in re-directs is mostly luck more than skill. Comrie gets a piece but it wasn't enough.

Second Goal, Gourde gets behind the D and tips the crossing pass. Perfectly placed tip, bad defensive play. I can't fault a goalie for that goal.

Third goal, Beniers with a put back after a save and an unlucky bounce off the post. Comrie makes the initial save and loses sight of the puck. Joker has got to tie up Beniers there. The D has to help out their goalies, which they failed to do so often last season.

4th goal, Comrie is on the post where he needs to be, pass goes to the high slot where there is a huge lane that the D ignored and Schultz skates right into a prime scoring area. Comrie comes out to challenge, and Schultz blasts the shot low and just inside the post. Really great shot with great placement. Tough to blame a goalie for that play.

Will goalies sometimes make saves on all of those goals? yep. Will they make saves most of the time on those plays? Nope. Yet this board overwhelmingly put most of the blame of the loss on goaltending, with the exception of @Chainshot who called out the team D out for letting the goalie down.

I honestly believe that most people on this board think that the D is fine and that the goaltending stats are indicative of poor goaltending, when in fact it was the D that was by and far the biggest issue with the goals against last season. Goaltending just was no where near good enough to overcome the terrible defensive play. But I will submit again, most goalies in the league will not be good enough to overcome that poor defensive play.
Again, you don't need to write these long posts explaining everything. Believe me, I understand everything you are saying. We could get into a quibble into which goals Comrie could have/should have saved and that won't really lead us anywhere. What I will say is that I watched every single goal we allowed this year (multiple times) and tried to evaluate each goalie equally in terms of ones that were realistic in terms of if it should've been saved. Again, Comrie came out far higher than the others. That's my entire point. You're free to do the same and show your numbers.
 

Diaspora

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Jul 13, 2020
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Again, you don't need to write these long posts explaining everything. Believe me, I understand everything you are saying. We could get into a quibble into which goals Comrie could have/should have saved and that won't really lead us anywhere. What I will say is that I watched every single goal we allowed this year (multiple times) and tried to evaluate each goalie equally in terms of ones that were realistic in terms of if it should've been saved. Again, Comrie came out far higher than the others. That's my entire point. You're free to do the same and show your numbers.
I find @Irie's explanations valuable. He might be responding directly to you, but he's also addressing an audience of onlookers like me. I'm feeling less panicky in the choice to prioritize defense depth over spending big assets on goaltending for now.
 

Irie

Registered User
Nov 14, 2010
4,684
4,635
Pacific Northwest
As I mentioned before, there are going to be games where the goalie is off, the team is off, or both. The bottom line is that we need the coaching staff to be better in tune with when to make a change in net, either to light a fire under the team, or to preserve a goalie's confidence. If the staff had made a few more moves then both UPL's and Comrie's numbers might look a whole lot different.
This is so important.

Most NHL coaches will say that they will make a goalie change after the 4th or 5th goal if it is still the first or second period, even if none of the goals are the goalies fault.

Reasoning is like you said, 1.)shake the team up and motivate them, and 2.) Because you don't leave a goalie in after he's given up five. To do so ignores everything about the human nature aspect of the position. Goalies are not going to play well after they have given up that many goals. To put them back in for the third period like in that Dallas game, if you don't expect them to then give up another 5 in the third like Comrie did, then you honestly don't understand goalies. And if you are doing that as an NHL coach, you need to learn.

In Granatos defence, I think it was sometimes because Andersen was the back-up and he needed Andersen available to play the following day or two, so CA's age put the team in a tough spot.Hopefully with young goalies on the roster now, we will never see Granato leave a goalie in a game like that again.
 
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elchud

Registered User
Nov 1, 2015
3,344
2,190
Levi is the unquestioned starting goalie for the Sabres. Of course he will play 40 games, minimum, barring injury.

The team has absolute confidence in him. They don't have confidence in UPL or Comrie which is why we are going to go 3-headed monster for a bit.
 
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Fezzy126

Rebuilding...
May 10, 2017
9,131
12,229
So for the better part of the last 6 months I've been complaining about carrying 3 goalies.

In the latest PDOcast, Woodley and Filipovic talk up 3 goalie systems as the next logical step for NHL teams:



Listening to this has me...

okay-then-paul-rudd-nodding-ok-alright-gif-15049681.gif


Now I find myself slowly doing an awkward 180 on the whole 3 goalie scenario.

They specifically talked about splitting practice (which I always thought of as a drawback) and allowing rest days as a form of load management. Woodley specifically touched on how practice can actually be detrimental to a goalie. Although much of the context around 3 goalie systems was around stashing a 1-way contract down in the minors.
 

Deep Blue Metallic

Bo knows hockey.
Mar 5, 2021
5,062
6,340
So for the better part of the last 6 months I've been complaining about carrying 3 goalies.

In the latest PDOcast, Woodley and Filipovic talk up 3 goalie systems as the next logical step for NHL teams:



Listening to this has me...



Now I find myself slowly doing an awkward 180 on the whole 3 goalie scenario.

They specifically talked about splitting practice (which I always thought of as a drawback) and allowing rest days as a form of load management. Woodley specifically touched on how practice can actually be detrimental to a goalie. Although much of the context around 3 goalie systems was around stashing a 1-way contract down in the minors.

PDOcast is the best out there. (Doesn't hurt that Dimitri is a HUGE Sabres fan,)

As someone who knows zilch about goaltending from playing experience, I always appreciate Kevin's technical takes, but I can't help but be skeptical. He's caught himself in the past talking about the position being "voodoo". "Oops, I'm not supposed to say that!" Let's not pretend he's omniscient about the position and his opinion invalidates yours.

I'm totally against carrying 3 goalies. If Adams actually starts the season with the current 3, I suspect it will just be a short-term experiment to get down to 2 regulars by trading/waiving one, sending Levi down, acquiring a new one in combination with waive/trade/demote, whatever as circumstances dictate.

Hopefully our resident goalie experts will comment.
 

dortt

Registered User
Sep 21, 2018
5,467
2,729
Houston, TX
Levi is the unquestioned starting goalie for the Sabres. Of course he will play 40 games, minimum, barring injury.

The team has absolute confidence in him. They don't have confidence in UPL or Comrie which is why we are going to go 3-headed monster for a bit.

If Levi's the starter, he's playing ~55 this coming season, not ~40
 
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KiwiGriff

It’s a Bloody Business Bates!
Dec 29, 2019
2,362
2,281
Porirua
Legit question here. Why is it so important for a goalie like Levi to develop in the minors? What makes the position of goalie more Important than defense or forward where we see 18 year old kids come in and succeed in this league?

Who’s to say Levi isn’t ready? Goalies have done it before. Barrasso was a 1st team All-Star as a teen. Patrick Roy won the Stanley Cup as a 20 year old. Sure, a different era but stopping the puck is stopping the puck In any era.

What I will say is that if Adams rolls with Levi as his go to guy and it fails, there needs to be consequences.
There will be: we won’t be a very good team
 

Jim Bob

RIP RJ
Feb 27, 2002
58,907
39,991
Rochester, NY
So for the better part of the last 6 months I've been complaining about carrying 3 goalies.

In the latest PDOcast, Woodley and Filipovic talk up 3 goalie systems as the next logical step for NHL teams:



Listening to this has me...

okay-then-paul-rudd-nodding-ok-alright-gif-15049681.gif


Now I find myself slowly doing an awkward 180 on the whole 3 goalie scenario.

They specifically talked about splitting practice (which I always thought of as a drawback) and allowing rest days as a form of load management. Woodley specifically touched on how practice can actually be detrimental to a goalie. Although much of the context around 3 goalie systems was around stashing a 1-way contract down in the minors.

The 3 goalie thing is OK if you have a workhorse #1 (or a really old guy like Anderson) that you want to reduce his practice reps to keep him fresh.

But, like the mess that was the 3 goalie situation with Biron, Noronen, and Miller, having three unproven goalies that could use the practice reps and won't get them will be less than ideal, IMO.
 
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toddkaz

Registered User
Nov 25, 2022
6,447
3,930
Devon Levi ranks first 7 NHL games

- 1/82 goalies in average shot distance
- 5/82 in High Danger shots against/60
- 8/82 in HDSV%
- 76/82 in Low Danger shots against/60
- 8/82 in LDSV%
 

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