Player Discussion All Purpose Goaltending Thread

[Archie Lee]

Levi was a 7th round pick. He was not viewed as an elite talent. He was viewed as having tools and athleticism. He has developed well. But he was traded along with a 1st for Sam Reinhart. If he was an elite talent the Sabres would have added a first. There is no reason he should be penciled in to the NHL lineup without seeing a volume of better shots in the AHL. I think it is unfair to him. His NHL comp is Saros who spent 2 seasons in the A before full time NHL status. I like Levi, but he is still a prospect. Getting a vet to man the crease for a few years isn't going to hurt him.

Saros spent 1.5 seasons in the AHL as a 20 and 21 year old. He was a full-time NHL player by January 2017, 4 months before he turned 22. He had Pekka Rinne blocking the starter's net in Nashville and was Rinne's back up until he became the starter in 2019-2022.

At the start of the coming season, Levi will be about the same age as Saros when he became a full-time NHL player. There is no Rinne here.

I think there is a reasonable argument that Levi would be served well by starting in the AHL. It's also reasonable to argue that it would make sense for the the Sabres to pair Levi with an established veteran. Saros's path, however, was not so much chosen as it was the path available. That Saros spent 1.5 years in the AHL and then was a back up for 3 seasons does not mean that Levi's path can't be different and also successful.

That said, I think Levi to the AHL is still a distinct possibility. I think the plan at the start of last year was Anderson/Comrie in the NHL and UPL in Rochester. The progression was then Comrie/UPL in the NHL this year (23/24) with Levi in Rochester. Then next year (24/25) it would be UPL/Levi in the NHL. The struggles that Comrie and UPL had last season, coupled with Levi's strong play, has led people to determine that it is a foregone conclusion that Levi will be in the NHL with one or both of Comrie/UPL gone or demoted to start the year. I think this is certainly possible and maybe even likely, but Levi remains our one goalie who does not need to pass through waivers. If Comrie and UPL have strong camps and pre-seasons and Levi does not, then it remains possible that Comrie/UPL are the goalies in Buffalo to start the season and that Levi is in Rochester.

 

[Zman5778]

That said, I think Levi to the AHL is still a distinct possibility. I think the plan at the start of last year was Anderson/Comrie in the NHL and UPL in Rochester. The progression was then Comrie/UPL in the NHL this year (23/24) with Levi in Rochester. Then next year (24/25) it would be UPL/Levi in the NHL. The struggles that Comrie and UPL had last season, coupled with Levi's strong play, has led people to determine that it is a foregone conclusion that Levi will be in the NHL with one or both of Comrie/UPL gone or demoted to start the year. I think this is certainly possible and maybe even likely, but Levi remains our one goalie who does not need to pass through waivers. If Comrie and UPL have strong camps and pre-seasons and Levi does not, then it remains possible that Comrie/UPL are the goalies in Buffalo to start the season and that Levi is in Rochester.

I don't see Levi to the AHL as much of a possibility at all. We signed Tokarski and Cooley to NHL deals with the intention of having them be the AHL pair. Because they're signed to NHL deals, they would need to give their consent to get sent to Jacksonville. Houser signed an AHL deal, ostensibly to be Jacksonville's #1 goalie.

I think it's infinitely more likely that we carry 3 goalies on the NHL roster than we send Levi to Rochester.

 

[5 Minute Major]

While it has happened, the happening is rare - the two guys you mentioned were in 1983 and 1986. That is forty and thirty-seven years ago, very much a different era.

Technique, physical preparation, mental preparation all factor into it. The most recent example of a highly touted prospect netminder jumping immediately into the NHL has been met with him leaving for non-substance mental health issues (Knight in Florida). Carter Hart is another and we've seen his development at the pro level stall and perhaps him not be the tender we believed he could be after jumping the line to push into the Flyers lineup.

We know Levi needs work on his rebound control. We'll have to see how he adapts to pro scheduling compared to NCAA scheduling, but that's probably going to be a thing as well. That's normally done a level below, not right in the line of NHL fire.

I don’t disagree with most of your take but why is it so much different for a goalie than a skater? Again, skaters come out and succeed while being younger.

And what I do disagree with is playing goalie 35 years ago is no different than it is now. In fact, it may have been more difficult back then. Goalies had a lot more to put up with (goalies weren’t touch-me-not’s) all the while wearing substandard equipment to what they have now.

Again, I feel a vet needs to be brought in. A GOOD vet. However, if Adams feels like rolling with Levi as his go to, I’m OK with that since he knows this kid better than any of us. But Adams should have his feet held to the fire if that strategy fails. Nothing less than the playoffs should be acceptable heading into this year. Enough is enough.

 

[Archie Lee]

I don't see Levi to the AHL as much of a possibility at all. We signed Tokarski and Cooley to NHL deals with the intention of having them be the AHL pair. Because they're signed to NHL deals, they would need to give their consent to get sent to Jacksonville. Houser signed an AHL deal, ostensibly to be Jacksonville's #1 goalie.

I think it's infinitely more likely that we carry 3 goalies on the NHL roster than we send Levi to Rochester.

Those are valid. Leaves one wondering if the plan is to move out UPL or Comrie.

 

[Fjordy]

I don't mind if Levi is in the NHL, if they see fit, then they have confidence in him, but in any case, another more proven goaltender is needed to tandem with Levi, be it Hellebuyck, Gibson, Hart or even DeSmith.

 

[elchud]

Do you think Matt Murray still has us on his no trade list?

MM is firmly behind Samsonov and Woll in Toronto

 

[BUCKSHOT]

Do you think Matt Murray still has us on his no trade list?

MM is firmly behind Samsonov and Woll in Toronto

I hope he does

 

[DatDude44]

Do you think Matt Murray still has us on his no trade list?

MM is firmly behind Samsonov and Woll in Toronto

I was kinda thinking this would be a perfect trade scenario Murray + quality prospect or pick to relieve his cap off toronto and backup/support Levi in 1A 1B role potentially. Only if Adams and company are comfortable with a guy like murray mentoring levi, if he's still not wanting to come or isn't a great teammate, no need to do this at all.

Trade UPL somewhere where he'll get opportunity for a mid rd pick or two. AFter that.

Good goaltending situation nd quality asset mgmt. Could use as sweeteners in future trades for upgrades etc... or just make the picks.

 

[sabremike]

I don't mind if Levi is in the NHL, if they see fit, then they have confidence in him, but in any case, another more proven goaltender is needed to tandem with Levi, be it Hellebuyck, Gibson, Hart or even DeSmith.

Why don't people understand that the risk of acquiring the first three are just as bad (and possibly worse) than what they are doing right now: Hellebuyck would take both a fortune of assets to acquire and a gigantic long term contract that would basically implode our cap situation, Gibson is a guy whom the stats scream "Do Not Touch" and has a rep of being difficult to coach and Hart has the WJC cloud over his head and while there has been no evidence he was in any way involved until the definitive report comes out giving up a ton for him could backfire horribly. I think if you asked KA his honest opinion and he had to give it to you he would almost certainly tell you he would like to get a solid vet but is putting it out that he's satisfied because getting one right now seems incredibly unlikely.

 

[Weltschmerz]

Do you think Matt Murray still has us on his no trade list?

MM is firmly behind Samsonov and Woll in Toronto

Looks like they will buy him out?

 

[Fjordy]

Why don't people understand that the risk of acquiring the first three are just as bad (and possibly worse) than what they are doing right now: Hellebuyck would take both a fortune of assets to acquire and a gigantic long term contract that would basically implode our cap situation, Gibson is a guy whom the stats scream "Do Not Touch" and has a rep of being difficult to coach and Hart has the WJC cloud over his head and while there has been no evidence he was in any way involved until the definitive report comes out giving up a ton for him could backfire horribly. I think if you asked KA his honest opinion and he had to give it to you he would almost certainly tell you he would like to get a solid vet but is putting it out that he's satisfied because getting one right now seems incredibly unlikely.

I'm only interested in level and experience. Hellebuyck is one of the best goaltenders in the NHL in recent years. UPL and Comrie are AHL goalies in terms of game and overall stats, and they are also inexperienced.

Regarding Gibson, I have already expressed my opinion many times. I always liked him as a goalie, and I think his stats will improve markedly when he is on another team.

Hart is young, but at the same time an experienced goalie. Obviously, you are trading for him after the investigation, which should be published this month. If he is not involved in this, then he is an good target for trade.

 

[Der Jaeger]

Legit question here. Why is it so important for a goalie like Levi to develop in the minors? What makes the position of goalie more Important than defense or forward where we see 18 year old kids come in and succeed in this league?

Who’s to say Levi isn’t ready? Goalies have done it before. Barrasso was a 1st team All-Star as a teen. Patrick Roy won the Stanley Cup as a 20 year old. Sure, a different era but stopping the puck is stopping the puck In any era.

What I will say is that if Adams rolls with Levi as his go to guy and it fails, there needs to be consequences.

Confidence

Look at a kid like Matt Murray. Came in with all the confidence in the world and won two straight Cups. Pens got rid of Fleury.

Goalie is 90% mental. That’s why everyone calls it “voodoo.” Coaching goalies is more about being a psychologist than a coach.

Look at the best goalies ever. No confidence issues. Roy got shelled by the Red Wings and proceeded to ask for a trade as he went to the locker room.

Hasek, Brodeur. Same confidence.

You can shatter a goalie for a long time by playing them beyond their capabilities, and especially beyond their mental ability to handle adversity.

I NEVER play a goalie higher than his age group. Bad business. Better to dominate than get hammered.

 

[Old Navy Goat]

The goalie's confidence is very symbiotic with the team's confidence. You can play balls out risky if you think the goalie is gonna stop any mistakes, vice going into the don't f up shell. Levi didn't seem to lack any confidence and the team didn't turtle with him in net so it should bode well for this season

 

[sabremike]

Confidence

Look at a kid like Matt Murray. Came in with all the confidence in the world and won two straight Cups. Pens got rid of Fleury.

Goalie is 90% mental. That’s why everyone calls it “voodoo.” Coaching goalies is more about being a psychologist than a coach.

Look at the best goalies ever. No confidence issues. Roy got shelled by the Red Wings and proceeded to ask for a trade as he went to the locker room.

Hasek, Brodeur. Same confidence.

You can shatter a goalie for a long time by playing them beyond their capabilities, and especially beyond their mental ability to handle adversity.

I NEVER play a goalie higher than his age group. Bad business. Better to dominate than get hammered.

The thing with Roy wasn't a confidence thing, it was that the coach kept him out there (seemingly in a deliberate act of spite) to be humiliated. Unless you are a total arsehole or you have no backup to use you never allow a goalie to take a beating like that.

 

[Der Jaeger]

The thing with Roy wasn't a confidence thing, it was that the coach kept him out there (seemingly in a deliberate act of spite) to be humiliated. Unless you are a total arsehole or you have no backup to use you never allow a goalie to take a beating like that.

A goalie with lesser mental ability than Roy would’ve been shattered by that night against the Red Wings.

 

[Jim Bob]

I don’t disagree with most of your take but why is it so much different for a goalie than a skater? Again, skaters come out and succeed while being younger.

And what I do disagree with is playing goalie 35 years ago is no different than it is now. In fact, it may have been more difficult back then. Goalies had a lot more to put up with (goalies weren’t touch-me-not’s) all the while wearing substandard equipment to what they have now.

Again, I feel a vet needs to be brought in. A GOOD vet. However, if Adams feels like rolling with Levi as his go to, I’m OK with that since he knows this kid better than any of us. But Adams should have his feet held to the fire if that strategy fails. Nothing less than the playoffs should be acceptable heading into this year. Enough is enough.

It is different in large part because of the extreme differences in the mental part of the game for goalies.

An 18yo F can be hidden down the lineup. You can shelter a young D. Goalies do not get to be sheltered in any way and that creates a ton of mental and emotional challenges. Knight's struggles in that area have had more obvious impacts. But, Hart's worst season was the year after he stopped working with the mental skills coach that he had until that point in his career.

Levi the Jedi could be a unicorn. But, I think there is a reasonable chance that he is not ready to be a 40+ start NHL goalie this season. And by fast tracking him to the NHL may work fine or it may cause Knight/Hart-ish issues. Given the need for Levi to work out long term, I do not believe that pushing him to the NHL faster than guys like Savoie or Kulich or Rosen is a smart approach.

Also, I do believe that the added workload is a thing. Levi has never played 50+ games in a season. To perhaps expect that from him at the NHL level in his rookie pro season and for a team where missing the playoffs will be a huge disappointment, is putting a ton of pressure on a kid.

 

[elchud]

They encourage the kids to play fearless. This is the environment. Why would it be different for Levi

 

[Bufbro]

They encourage the kids to play fearless. This is the environment. Why would it be different for Levi

Play fearless sure . What does that have to do with asking him to play 50+ games ?

 

[MOGlLNY]

Play fearless sure . What does that have to do with asking him to play 50+ games ?

literally nothing at all, just saying buzz words.

 

[toddkaz]

I think Adams rolls with Levi and UPL. I think he only makes a trade if they are struggling after 20-30 games.

If Levi struggles I could see him sent down and Adams brings in a goalie.

I don't think he does it now,.

 

[Old Navy Goat]

He played 41 last year and the NCAA runs a compressed schedule with weekend games. So who's to say the NHL schedule and not working both back to back isn't conducive to approaching 50 games?

 

[Jim Bob]

They encourage the kids to play fearless. This is the environment. Why would it be different for Levi

How does a goalie play fearless when it comes to the same idea as forwards and defense?

The idea that a goalie can take chances without worrying about whether it won't work is nowhere near the same as other positions because they are the last line of defense and it is hard to win when your goalie gives up bad goals.

 

[Jim Bob]

He played 41 last year and the NCAA runs a compressed schedule with weekend games. So who's to say the NHL schedule and not working both back to back isn't conducive to approaching 50 games?

Levi had an unusual distribution of the 41 games he played in that he had 34 NCAA games, a two week break, and then 7 NHL games.

The biggest challenge with the change in both the schedule (the NHL has a much less rhythmic schedule and way more travel as compared to what Levi had at Northeastern) and the workload will be the adjustment to not having that regular schedule of practice Monday-Thursday, games on Friday-Saturday, and the Sunday off day that you have for the bulk of the college season.

Levi is a highly structured guy. So, it will take time to adjust.

Plus, the added games and travel and adjustment to the pro game will add both mental and physical stress that he has yet to deal with. That transition could be smooth. But, like for the vast majority of goalies, it will be a learning experience.

For a team that expects to make the playoffs in 2023-24, betting on Levi handling all those changes relatively seamlessly and having UPL & Comrie as the backup plans is a major gamble, IMO.

 

[elchud]

Play fearless sure . What does that have to do with asking him to play 50+ games ?

He played 7 games in 2 weeks.

If he has a save percentage .910 or higher, the only reason that he wouldn't play 50 or more games will be injury. Hear me now and believe me later.

 

[Der Jaeger]

For those of you who have played the game, ever notice that goalies are "weird?" Ever notice that some goalies hardly look like athletes at all? Ryan Miller is still skinny.

It's because the position is nearly all mental. That's why we have trouble evaluating goalies. So we call them "voodoo" and leave it at that.

You can look at Benson's physical traits and how he plays the game, and understand why he's so good. But why is Bobrovsky so good? Look at him after games - he's certainly not a physical specimen.

Great goalies are great because of their mental abilities. It's also why goalies can be so erratic. So, when we are evaluating goaltenders, we have to evaluate them on a different set of criteria.

Just your friendly neighborhood EBUG putting out the goalie service announcement.