Confirmed with Link: All-Purpose Coyotes Arena Talk: [Update] Land Auction Cancelled, Meruelo waiving ownership rights.

[Jamieh]

They do need it, because if they didn't have it, Chipman wouldn't have the team there, no matter how rich he is.

Chipman isn't the money. So you don't think Jets could survive without $12 million USD subsidy despite owner being worth north of $50 billion yet Coyotes $2 billion Owner loses more than that every year and is fine? Strange thinking??

Also, XG would prefer an outside market buyer because that's more $$$ to the Meruelo group. But I have faith they'll get it done.

If the Team is sold for relocation I'll bet everything I own that the NHL will be getting a decent sized portion of the sale price in the form of a relocation fee.

 

[rt]

The Yotes initially wanted 200 acres. The cost came back too high (specifically to get infrastructure pulled into this raw land - roadways, sewage, electric, telecom, etc). So they instead went with just 100 acres.

We know from precedent that these state land trust auctions generally have a single bidder (thanks, @TheLegend). 88% of the time it’s just one bidder. And on the very large, very expensive deals it’s even more rare to have competing bids.

So, we know there are now TWO plots, each of 100 acres, right next to one another. We know that one is being sold first to a bidder who’s stated publicly he’ll do whatever it takes to win, and that he’s going to pay himself to have all the infrastructure brought into the area on his own dime. And that he’s going to develop something very high-end and high-profile and likely to make the area even more desirable

So why? WHY? Would anyone? ANYONE? Want to challenge him for the first 100 acres, rather than just waiting to bid on the second 100 acres?

Doesn’t it make much much much more sense to simply pass on this 100 and buy the next 100? Think of all the drama and expense that would be avoided if you just want to build housing, healthcare, shopping, or light commercial for microchips or whatever.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

But the cost per acre would be higher… by a lot.

The infrastructure is the ace in the hole, if there is one. Also, the silence that was so annoying could be a huge plus, as this is a big dollar situation and few, if any will go into w/o extensive planning and research.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

Chipman isn't the money. So you don't think Jets could survive without $12 million USD subsidy despite owner being worth north of $50 billion yet Coyotes $2 billion Owner loses more than that every year and is fine? Strange thinking??

No, it's not strange thinking. It's a business, and the business proposition would not make sense if they didn't have the subsidy to offset the lack of corporate support. Why do you think Bettman made a personal visit to Winnipeg to try to shore that up?

So Chipman is worth a lot of money. That doesn't change his business sense. If anything, it makes him less likely to pursue a Quixotic quest to keep hockey in Winnipeg at all costs.

 

[Jamieh]

No, it's not strange thinking. It's a business, and the business proposition would not make sense if they didn't have the subsidy to offset the lack of corporate support. Why do you think Bettman made a personal visit to Winnipeg to try to shore that up?

So Chipman is worth a lot of money. That doesn't change his business sense. If anything, it makes him less likely to pursue a Quixotic quest to keep hockey in Winnipeg at all costs.

Chipman isn't the money, this is a recording. Bettman and Ownership are concerned about attendance, as they should be. So why can Coyote's Owner's lose money every single year but Jets Owner needs to panic after a couple of bad years?? Why did Coyote's Tempe deal have same subsidies?

 

[Coyotedroppings]

This isnt the only project AM is in on either. There’s a few more that are non hockey related.

There are quite a few pieces to this whole investment group. All with heavy backing and very good at their crafts all working together to see the big picture of the project.

This will be the nicest arena venue and entertainment district in the country, nothing will compare to it, that’s what I’m being told anyway. No cutting corners or going cheap on the whole thing

Okay, that's the second time you've mentioned an investor group. Can you disclose any names? Secondly, it appears to me from the renderings that the entire 110 acres is not being used.... are these other investors eyeing the "left overs?"

 

[MIGs Dog]

The Yotes initially wanted 200 acres. The cost came back too high (specifically to get infrastructure pulled into this raw land - roadways, sewage, electric, telecom, etc). So they instead went with just 100 acres.

We know from precedent that these state land trust auctions generally have a single bidder (thanks, @TheLegend). 88% of the time it’s just one bidder. And on the very large, very expensive deals it’s even more rare to have competing bids.

So, we know there are now TWO plots, each of 100 acres, right next to one another. We know that one is being sold first to a bidder who’s stated publicly he’ll do whatever it takes to win, and that he’s going to pay himself to have all the infrastructure brought into the area on his own dime. And that he’s going to develop something very high-end and high-profile and likely to make the area even more desirable

So why? WHY? Would anyone? ANYONE? Want to challenge him for the first 100 acres, rather than just waiting to bid on the second 100 acres?

Doesn’t it make much much much more sense to simply pass on this 100 and buy the next 100? Think of all the drama and expense that would be avoided if you just want to build housing, healthcare, shopping, or light commercial for microchips or whatever.

You're almost certainly right that no one else will bid, but a possible reason why someone would is if they view the corner of Scottsdale Rd and the 101 as more desirable than the other location.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

The Yotes initially wanted 200 acres. The cost came back too high (specifically to get infrastructure pulled into this raw land - roadways, sewage, electric, telecom, etc). So they instead went with just 100 acres.

We know from precedent that these state land trust auctions generally have a single bidder (thanks, @TheLegend). 88% of the time it’s just one bidder. And on the very large, very expensive deals it’s even more rare to have competing bids.

So, we know there are now TWO plots, each of 100 acres, right next to one another. We know that one is being sold first to a bidder who’s stated publicly he’ll do whatever it takes to win, and that he’s going to pay himself to have all the infrastructure brought into the area on his own dime. And that he’s going to develop something very high-end and high-profile and likely to make the area even more desirable

So why? WHY? Would anyone? ANYONE? Want to challenge him for the first 100 acres, rather than just waiting to bid on the second 100 acres?

Doesn’t it make much much much more sense to simply pass on this 100 and buy the next 100? Think of all the drama and expense that would be avoided if you just want to build housing, healthcare, shopping, or light commercial for microchips or whatever.

100%. If I were a developer, I'd definitely want to go into business WITH someone who builds a huge state-of-the-art high-end entertainment/retail district, because whatever I'd build next door would be worth a metric shit-ton more as a result.

I think the only people thinking that someone would bid to block this are sweating hockey trolls who believe the Universe is against the idea of the Coyotes in principle and that there are a bunch of extremely rich hockey purists who want to take one for the team, as it were, to ensure the death of this franchise.

 

[Arizonatah Coyetis]

And it wouldn't surprise me if they have no intention of purchasing this land.

What is the benefit of going through all this if it's only for show? Seems like it would be costly, time consuming, and unnecessary. Not to mention pissing off a lot of people for wasting their time. I think AM values his reputation as a businessman more than that. Doesn't like losing either.

Edit:
I doubt the people investing in this project, that aren't part owners of the team too, are doing this as a favor for AM.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

Chipman isn't the money, this is a recording. Bettman and Ownership are concerned about attendance, as they should be. So why can Coyote's Owner's lose money every single year but Jets Owner needs to panic after a couple of bad years?? Why did Coyote's Tempe deal have same subsidies?

The Coyotes Tempe deal did NOT have the same subsidies that Chipman/TNSE get for running the show in Winnipeg. The only "subsidies" Meruelo asked for were tax breaks to offset the cost of development, not ongoing payments from the government. You might be thinking of IceArizona, whose deal with Glendale included millions of dollars in annual payments from the city to the team as a thinly-disguised "management fee."

Also, I think you're discounting the gigantic discrepancies between Phoenix and Winnipeg in terms of market size and corporate presence.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

I'm not sure I have seen this answered anywhere:

If they win the auction in late June, and then there is a 30-day period to close the sale, so late July, why is it that construction is not likely to begin until about 9 months later? What needs to happen first in those 9 months before construction can begin?

My understanding is that infrastructure is first and the construction you refer to is the arena.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

What is the benefit of going through all this if it's only for show? Seems like it would be costly, time consuming, and unnecessary. Not to mention pissing off a lot of people for wasting their time. I think AM values his reputation as a businessman more than that. Doesn't like losing either.

Edit:
I doubt the people investing in this project, that aren't part owners of the team too, are doing this as a favor for AM.

Oh, I agree and don't think that's the case (just edited above), but nothing surprises me any longer regarding this. Devils advocate would question just how much time/money they've spent and question a "favor of time" for the NHL, with a reward in sales price. Reality is, that I believe it's significant.

 

[rt]

The Coyotes Tempe deal did NOT have the same subsidies that Chipman/TNSE get for running the show in Winnipeg. The only "subsidies" Meruelo asked for were tax breaks to offset the cost of development, not ongoing payments from the government. You might be thinking of IceArizona, whose deal with Glendale included millions of dollars in annual payments from the city to the team as a thinly-disguised "management fee."

Also, I think you're discounting the gigantic discrepancies between Phoenix and Winnipeg in terms of market size and corporate presence.

Tax breaks is pretty loose. It’s holding back a percentage of ONLY the sales tax generated on the site itself and only for a limited amount of time. That’s revenue that Tempe now does not have and will never have. That’s not even a tax break. That’s an insult to to tax breaks. That’s basically a favor to Tempe and not the other way around.

That’s me cooking your family a big meal and asking only that you let me use the coupons from YOUR junk mail when I make the trip to the grocery.

 

[Jamieh]

The Coyotes Tempe deal did NOT have the same subsidies that Chipman/TNSE get for running the show in Winnipeg. The only "subsidies" Meruelo asked for were tax breaks to offset the cost of development, not ongoing payments from the government. You might be thinking of IceArizona, whose deal with Glendale included millions of dollars in annual payments from the city to the team as a thinly-disguised "management fee."

Also, I think you're discounting the gigantic discrepancies between Phoenix and Winnipeg in terms of market size and corporate presence.

The Coyotes deal had an entertainment tax going back to Coyotes and tax abatement, same as Jets have.

I have never discounted or even mentioned market size or corporate but let's be real they haven't exactly lined the Coyotes pockets over the years. I simply countered your "needs" Govt money. The Jets don't actually need it if they choose but will gladly take it and so would Mureulo if it was available.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

Outside of Coyote luck I haven’t the foggiest idea about the rest of it.

Mainly because I haven’t had the time.

HAHA, no worries, just speculation on my part. I didn't see anything conclusive in your links, but let me know if you do, when you get the chance to read.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

A couple of points for me:

It seems like this is grade "A" land being in the heart of the north Scottsdale area. I would think many other developers would have interest in this land for other projects. It wouldn't surprise me if competition showed up.

XG saying relocation is next if this doesn't go through, is kind of hail merry window dressing. I think he is trying to put some pressure on Phoenix to pick the Coyotes in an auction, but no town in the Phoenix market has ever cared or responded like they have to keep a team here.

I don't think its the NHL saying this spot or we move, I think it is more the Coyotes trying to put pressure on the NHL to help them in some way. I still don't think the NHL moves the team if this auction fails.

I hope they win the bid and this saga of uncertainty is over.

A couple of points for me:

It seems like this is grade "A" land being in the heart of the north Scottsdale area. I would think many other developers would have interest in this land for other projects. It wouldn't surprise me if competition showed up.

Quite possible, but a lot of due diligence would be needed to jump into this and until recently it hasn't even been a known opportunity.

XG saying relocation is next if this doesn't go through, is kind of hail merry window dressing. I think he is trying to put some pressure on Phoenix to pick the Coyotes in an auction, but no town in the Phoenix market has ever cared or responded like they have to keep a team here.

There is no "picking the Coyotes", it's an auction awarded to highest bidder.

I don't think its the NHL saying this spot or we move, I think it is more the Coyotes trying to put pressure on the NHL to help them in some way. I still don't think the NHL moves the team if this auction fails.

I don't think the NHL can provide any help, particularly after they "helped" the COG out of millions.

I hope they win the bid and this saga of uncertainty is over.

Me too!

 

[knich]

Not sure why a developer, unless purely to screw the Yotes, would suddenly want this 100 acres when there is another 100 acres right next to this one. And for years it was 200+ acres for the bidding.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

Not sure why a developer, unless purely to screw the Yotes, would suddenly want this 100 acres when there is another 100 acres right next to this one. And for years it was 200+ acres for the bidding.

Never underestimate a kids ability to suddenly want the toy in the sandbox that he'd previously shown no interest in. But yes, if anything the area around this development should be more attractive after the fact, of course also more expensive.

 

[SR]

Okay, that's the second time you've mentioned an investor group. Can you disclose any names? Secondly, it appears to me from the renderings that the entire 110 acres is not being used.... are these other investors eyeing the "left overs?"

No names. The investors are going in on the whole thing with Muerelo . They’re all working together as a team. There won’t be any left overs to build anything on.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

No names. The investors are going in on the whole thing with Muerelo . They’re all working together as a team. There won’t be any left overs to build anything on.

Yeah, I just dug a little deeper, compared the what info we know to section maps and it appears all land is being built on as shown.

 

[knich]

Never underestimate a kids ability to suddenly want the toy in the sandbox that he'd previously shown no interest in. But yes, if anything the area around this development should be more attractive after the fact, of course also more expensive.

Of course, the Yotes are footing the infrastructure which could reduce the cost of the other 100 acres.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

Craig and Petey pooh pooh'd the flood zone, but having been in Agriculture for many years, I wouldn't. You never know when the 100 year flood may come.

https://www.phoenix.gov/pddsite/Documents/PZ/pdd_pz_pdf_00544.pdf

Scottsdale is making and has made improvements protecting its residents etc. and in doing so is diverting a lot of potential water to this area of Phoenix.

https://gis.maricopa.gov/document/FCD/Projects/76Large.png

Of course, the Yotes are footing the infrastructure which could reduce the cost of the other 100 acres.

No the costs will go up, as they always do. So best case scenario is they remain the same.... pay more for the land (it's worth more due to time elapsing and the infrastructure improvements), but next buyer has less infrastructure costs.

 

[Kaizen]

Craig and Petey pooh pooh'd the flood zone, but having been in Agriculture for many years, I wouldn't. You never know when the 100 year flood may come.

https://www.phoenix.gov/pddsite/Documents/PZ/pdd_pz_pdf_00544.pdf

Calgary and area (High River) had a couple of those within a ~ five year period going back a few years.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

Calgary and area (High River) had a couple of those within a ~ five year period going back a few years.

I remember.

 

[TheLegend]

Re: Floodplains

Every other development in that immediate area is in the same floodplain. Looking at how they handled it would be a key to what Meruelo will probably need to do.