All Encompassing Coaching and Glen Cigar Thread Part V

[trilobyte]

I thought nyr2K2 made a pretty good case of things.

Mostly, it can be exhausting cataloging the good, and the bad. After that, you still have to apply a filter for the subjectivity of it all.

I would be really happy to see a new coach with a different idea of how to get the most out of the players. Those new players coming up in the system could benefit greatly from a non-Tortorella system.

 

[nyr2k2]

Some might say that you can't blame Torts when the top players aren't performing.

Perhaps Torts is to blame for that?

He blamed himself, no? Credit for that.

The coach is ultimately responsible for the play of the team. People want to tell me not to blame him for guys having bad years this season? Okay, and I won't give him credit for guys having good seasons last year. Cuts both ways. Either give him credit for success AND failure or nothing at all.

Again, he's been okay. I'd like to see if we can find someone else that can CONSISTENTLY coax greatness out of our guys.

 

[hi]

I'll bring the huckleberry!

I'll bring extra jam. Just in case we run out.

 

[3rd Guy High]

He himself blamed himself, no? The coach is ultimately responsible for the play of the team. People want to tell me not to blame him for guys having bad years this season? Okay, and I won't give him credit for guys having good seasons last year. Cuts both ways. Either give him credit for success AND failure or nothing at all.

Again, he's been okay. I'd like to see if we can find someone else that can CONSISTENTLY coax greatness out of our guys.

This is my entire point. He's done a decent job, yes, but with our makeup, and with a little bit of tweaking systems wise, we could be a better team.

 

[Clown Fiesta]

Campbell is actually one of the more successful coaches for this franchises win-wise.

Sadly.

Barely over .500 on his career which says way too much about this franchise.

 

[nyr2k2]

This is my entire point. He's done a decent job, yes, but with our makeup, and with a little bit of tweaking systems wise, we could be a better team.

I agree. And maybe we're wrong, ya know? But what's the downside? We go out in the first round again? What's the difference? I don't think he's going to take us to the top. That's the ultimate goal. If you don't think he's the guy to do that, you cut bait. I'm pulling the knife out of the tackle box.

 

[Kershaw]

Regarding small sample size: Youre missing the point. He produced like a #1C. That was not a problem these playoffs. Whether he will continue to play like that is doubtful, but doesn't change the fact that not having a "#1C" was NOT the problem these playoffs, because, in fact, we had someone that played like one.

And? Going by this logic, it cancels out with Stepan's abysmal playoff performance.

Callahan gets top line minutes because he plays every PK, and is our net front guy on the PP.

And the PK was terrible and the PP was horrific. He does not play in front of net with nearly 4 mins per game PP time on Boston on Pittsburgh

Zuccarello produced like a top 6 player in the games in which he played with Brassard and not with Boyle and Pyatt. Was one of the better players on the ice when he was playing in a top 6 role.

That does not make him a top 6 player, he still has a .5 career PPG with deficiencies. Still a good 3rd line player.

Carl Hagelin is what Dupuis and Kunitz are; a perfect complimentary player that can fill in anywhere.

I agree. But I think Hags is a watered down version of both of those two.

Stralman has played like a top 4 D since coming to the rangers. Very underrated. Boston also had THREE rookies in their D corps. Failed to take advantage.

Stralman started to look good once playing under John Tortorella. But alas, he won't get credit for that.

Eminger was not the problem these playoffs, scoring goals was. But people want to trade Del Zotto so he's guaranteed to play BEFORE injuries.

Eminger contributed to lack of goals. He sucked at getting the puck out.

That could be attributed to Torts not preaching his D to get involved in the rush as much. Del Zotto, McDonagh, Moore and Stralman all have the ability. Look at Detroit's D with Quincy and Ericsson jumping up all the time. Not every team has a "true" PMD.

I saw the Rangers dman a ton of times jumping in the rush, especially McDonagh. Problem is, they don't know what to do with the puck.

Asham + Dorsett (for the most part) were good. 4th line was a problem, but there's no argument that taking out Asham was a boneheaded move, another reason he should be gone.

Dorsett was a very undisciplined player these playoffs. Asham, I agree he did not deserve to sit.

You're still yet to reply to my other post stating all the boneheaded decisions that cost us games these playoffs. Selective arguments huh? Or can those not be put on the coach either?

I must've missed it somewhere, could you direct me to the post?

 

[RangerBlues]

I wonder now that the season is over if Slats starts putting feelers with Henrick and an extension. I wonder if the question comes out: Do you think you can win with Torts?

 

[3rd Guy High]

Does anyone still think we should have this idiot behind the bench? God forbid we have a PP coach because Tortorella has a circle of trust and only wants one other person on his bench.

Best goalie in the world? Lets sit back deep in our zone and screen the goalie some more. Gotta make it a fair game for the other team because they don't have someone as good as him you know.

We have a gritty 4th liner that can and has scored more goals than our superstar goal scorer Rick Nash in the playoffs? Let's scratch him and put in some perennial AHL all-star NHL scrub.

Clutch rookie comes in and scores some great goals for us in the playoffs when it matters? Let's not be patient with him until we're on the brink of elimination again.

Oh, and let's play a 40 year old slow as molasses defenseman who hasn't played a game in almost 2 months versus a 20 year old rookie with fresh legs who has played a game more recently than that.

Brassard is lighting up the playoffs in the first round? ****. He shouldn't be doing that, let's put Mr.1-goal-Nash with him so Boston can cover both of them with Chara! Genius!

Zuccarello plays well with Brassard? Demote him to play with Byron Boy and Taylor Pyatt while successfully breaking up the two lines that have been the best for us in the playoffs.

Our PP runs at a 5% rate? Let's keep the same guys out there when we have someone who brought us success sitting on the bench (Moore).

The only good thing he did this postseason was bench Richards. And that should have been done a loooooong time ago. But no, we have people in here defending him.

I don't know if Lindberg could have been brought over either, so I can't blame him for that, but I would have had a kid who was a playoff MVP a few weeks ago in my lineup immediately.

There you go.

And? Going by this logic, it cancels out with Stepan's abysmal playoff performance.



And the PK was terrible and the PP was horrific. He does not play in front of net with nearly 4 mins per game PP time on Boston on Pittsburgh



That does not make him a top 6 player, he still has a .5 career PPG with deficiencies. Still a good 3rd line player.



I agree. But I think Hags is a watered down version of both of those two.



Stralman started to look good once playing under John Tortorella. But alas, he won't get credit for that.



Eminger contributed to lack of goals. He sucked at getting the puck out.



I saw the Rangers dman a ton of times jumping in the rush, especially McDonagh. Problem is, they don't know what to do with the puck.



Dorsett was a very undisciplined player these playoffs. Asham, I agree he did not deserve to sit.



I must've missed it somewhere, could you direct me to the post?

It does cancel out Stepans abysmal perfomance. I am concerned about Stepan, yes, but there are plenty of players that need a few more years to figure it out in the playoffs. I'm confident Stepan will be one of those.

I agree with the PP and PK, but the net front guy's major job is to get the rebounds after pucks are thrown at the net. We didn't have any pucks thrown at the net to begin with, so what exactly is he supposed to do? ALOT of PP and PK is how it is drawn up. But yes, the PK was awful. He should shoulder some weight for that. Who on Pittsburgh would play the PK over him?

Alot of teams have players that aren't "top 6" players in their top 6. Zuccarello is one of the best on our team when it comes to creating in the offensive zone. Put him with a finisher or in a puck possession system and watch him flourish. Again, tortorella not getting the most out of his players.

Agree. Still think Hags has a little bit more in him. Not much, but a little.

I have given Tortorella plenty of credit for developing our defensemen defensively. One of the few things I think he's done a great job of. Notice that none of them have any offensive game though.

Agreed.

They don't know what to do with it because the coach has not taught them what to do with it. Watch Detroit's D jump into the rush with a purpose. Coaching.

Dorsett was undisciplined, but good otherwise. Provided spark and energy.

 

[KreidertheGlider]

An offensive system would actually help Hank IMO. More goal support, less screens, and less deflected shots.

 

[aufheben]

i said it once, and i'll say it again...PIERRE MCGUIRE. he has a ring for a reason. i hate his personality, but he could win this team a cup. not like our coach isn't hated by 90% of the league already

Mr. Peanut? Idk about that one...

 

[KreidertheGlider]

The fan in me would like to see what a new coach can bring to this team, but the realist in me would be shocked to see AV or Boucher take this team any further than Torts has.

Exactly how I feel. Fan>realist

 

[3rd Guy High]

An offensive system would actually help Hank IMO. More goal support, less screens, and less deflected shots.

That's what we've been trying to say, but the Torts supporters want to hear none of that. I bet Lundqvist would agree.

I wonder now that the season is over if Slats starts putting feelers with Henrick and an extension. I wonder if the question comes out: Do you think you can win with Torts?

Hope his answer is no.

 

[JESSEWENEEDTOCOOK]

i said it once, and i'll say it again...PIERRE MCGUIRE. he has a ring for a reason. i hate his personality, but he could win this team a cup. not like our coach isn't hated by 90% of the league already

Actually wouldn't mind having him in an assistant's role.

 

[NYRKING30]

Hopefully management has the balls to ask Torts if he plans to play the same way next year or adjust. My opinion for the past few months is we need a coach to take us to the next level.

 

[Clown Fiesta]

The fan in me would like to see what a new coach can bring to this team, but the realist in me would be shocked to see AV or Boucher take this team any further than Torts has.

I don't know, coaches have a shelf life and I think Torts is up against his. Renney actually did quite a bit for some of these guys, Torts came in and added to it, a new (component) coach may be able to push them over the hump. It's a natural progression of things.

Torts had his team last year, sadly they didn't get it done. I think that is the closest Torts and this system will get us. Think of it as a curve, his time here was accelerated because the previous coach left him a solid foundation and his GM brought in guys to fit his system.

 

[Kershaw]

There you go.

I think that post was quite irrational, so I did not bother to respond to it. Torts isn't to blame for the injuries on this team or Rick Nash playing like Enver Lisn or the lack of talent built by the true problem from above - Glen Sather.

It does cancel out Stepans abysmal perfomance. I am concerned about Stepan, yes, but there are plenty of players that need a few more years to figure it out in the playoffs. I'm confident Stepan will be one of those.

I agree, however I don't see how you can say that Brassard performed like a 1C as an excuse as to why the rest of the roster didn't score because of Torts.

I agree with the PP and PK, but the net front guy's major job is to get the rebounds after pucks are thrown at the net. We didn't have any pucks thrown at the net to begin with, so what exactly is he supposed to do? ALOT of PP and PK is how it is drawn up. But yes, the PK was awful. He should shoulder some weight for that. Who on Pittsburgh would play the PK over him?

Cooke and Adams are statistically 2 of the better PKers post lockout. Dupuis is also pretty good as is Brandon Sutter.

Callahan wasn't playing in the net in front much I noticed. He tried a lot to play like a skilled, finesse game on the half wall and behind the net, which failed with his constant turnovers. Boyle was the only one to get his nose dirty in front of the net.

Alot of teams have players that aren't "top 6" players in their top 6. Zuccarello is one of the best on our team when it comes to creating in the offensive zone. Put him with a finisher or in a puck possession system and watch him flourish. Again, tortorella not getting the most out of his players.

?

Tortorella got a lot out of Zuccarello. And he put him a lot with Nash this season, but Nash dragged his play down this post season. Overall he was 2nd in team playoff scoring.

I have given Tortorella plenty of credit for developing our defensemen defensively. One of the few things I think he's done a great job of. Notice that none of them have any offensive game though.

The problem is, none of them sans Del Zotto and Moore have offensive talent. Del Zotto produced a 41 pt season under Tortorella hockey and Moore's point totals substantially increased relative to Columbus. He gets a lot out of Dan Girardi with his 2 PPGs against Boston.

Agreed.

They don't know what to do with it because the coach has not taught them what to do with it. Watch Detroit's D jump into the rush with a purpose. Coaching.

Coach can't teach a player natural offensive instincts, which very few players on this roster have.

Dorsett was undisciplined, but good otherwise. Provided spark and energy.

Completely disagree. He let the team down with his boneheaded penalties. He led the team in minors.

 

[Blueshirt Believer]

I think another big issue is that Sather, coming from a coaching background, is probably a lot more forgiving of Torts than the fan base is.

That has me worried. But I heard rumblings this year that the organization wasn't too happy with Torts over Gabs/Krieder.

I think its going to come down to Hank this summer. If the Rangers are trying to get him to a long term extension; Hank could make a demand that they go in another direction(coaching wise).

 

[trilobyte]

A coaching change will not occur for at least another season.

Should that occur then, why would it have to be Alain Vigneault or Guy Boucher, or...??
AV has not really proven to be a great coach over his many seasons. Guy Boucher has had a short track record, and spotty success after his golden intro.
I hope coaches that are not NHL retreads will be at least considered. If this happened during this off season, I would be cool with it.

 

[Inferno]

Teams played over 30 playoff games in the last 2 years. Our fan base is unrealistic.

Only reason you'd fire Torts is if you want to rip it down and start over.

 

[trilobyte]

No. The team would not have be torn up at all.

 

[PlamsUnlimited]

Teams played over 30 playoff games in the last 2 years. Our fan base is unrealistic.

Only reason you'd fire Torts is if you want to rip it down and start over.

I don't agree with this. It's a legit perspective though. Let me counter-argue...

Since Torts has come in, Sather has attempted/has bolstered the offense with guys like Gabs, Nash, etc.. and we have a few guys in the works coming up, possibly getting a shot. We have our secondary speedsters like Hags, offensive centers (SHOULD BE ****ING RICHARDS, BUT NO), and Stepan. Maybe even Brassard now too. But when he first came in, this Rangers team had much less offensive competence. I'm pretty sure we almost can agree on that.. So what I'm saying is... Maybe the team does not have to be ripped down if we hire a new coach. it seems like we now have offensive tools, a great goalie and nice defense when they aren't Pejorative Slured. Maybe it's just a matter of strategies between HC's.

 

[trilobyte]

Since when is a team built around a coach?
This team has good parts, and more on the way. Don't have them constricted by the sytem employed now.
Isn't the goal to become a better hockey team?

 

[JESSEWENEEDTOCOOK]

Teams played over 30 playoff games in the last 2 years. Our fan base is unrealistic.

Only reason you'd fire Torts is if you want to rip it down and start over.

Disagreed.

It's about taking the next step.

 

[SupersonicMonkey*]

Someone mentioned Pierre McGuire. While some may not like that notion, Pierre would be a good fit.

He has been an assistant coach, head coach, head scout, and assistant general manager in the NHL. He has two Stanley Cup rings (Pittsburgh 91 & 92). He spends his life traveling to watch hockey at every level. He's an ambassador of the game. He's well respected around the league. He is a legitimate judge of talent. And he's a local guy (Englewood, NJ).

Honestly, instead of the usual rehash, Pierre would be more akin to a move such as when the Penguins hired Dan Bylsma.

I would be fully on board with Pierre as a Tortorella successor. And give Brian Leetch a clipboard to run the Rangers power play.