GDT: All Encompassing 4 Nations Discussion.

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I can’t remember who said it but I like their prediction:

Canada will either win like 8-1 or lose. Really have to imagine they’re going to push to the edge this afternoon.

Game starts soon. I’m still on team Canada.
If they are not dominating Finland, they are 100% going to get lopsided officiating. The people in charge know there is a cash cow of ratings and money to be made Thursday by having a rematch. They won't let that slide.
 
Solid analysis. One reason I get frustrated when talking about goalies is it seems fans focus way too much on so-called "weak" goals. The truth is that every goalie is going to let in goals that he could have stopped, and it's going to happen fairly often. Now obviously if it happens too often or in key moments of the game it's a problem, but I feel like goalies are in an unfair position. Every "mistake" is magnified a lot more than the credit they receive for making difficult saves.

OK, the 1st US goal wasn't great from Binner's perspective, but also how many tough saves did he have to make? Does it balance out in the end? If he had stopped Guentzel's shot but allowed a goal later on a more difficult opportunity, then no one would be complaining but the result would be the same. I'm pretty sure Hellebuyck let in a weak goal against Finland, and some of the goals in the Sweden/Finland game (including Granlund's game winner) were very stoppable as well. It's just the nature of the business that when you have professional hockey players firing pucks at you that some of them are gonna go in that technically could have been stopped.

All you can really ask is that the goalie plays well enough to give the team a chance to win, and I don't see how anyone can say Binner didn't do that. He wasn't outstanding, but he certainly didn't play badly either. Obviously Hellebuyck played better but the main factors were an extremely solid US defense and a Canada offense that couldn't get the job done in the end.
We actually have advanced stats that tell us if it "balances out in the end." That's the entire premise behind Goals Saved Above Expected (GSAx) but some people, including yourself, are quick to write those off if they don't support their position.
 
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We actually have advanced stats that tell us if it "balances out in the end." That's the entire premise behind Goals Saved Above Expected (GSAx) but some people, including yourself, are quick to write those off if they don't support their position.

Looks like it's balancing out right now, eh?

Computers can do their best to stimulate real life but they're not perfect, not yet at least.
 
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Looks like it's balancing out right now, eh?

Computers can do their best to stimulate real life but they're not perfect, not yet at least.
Yes, Binny is doing a good job against a less-talented Finland team. He's had a few great games for the Blues this season too. Unfortunately since the end of November, they're usually followed by a 3+ goal game (a lot of time a 4 or 5 goal game), which could be a good sign for the Americans.

Some of these metrics are a far better gauge than random Blues fan forum opinion.
 
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I was still a believer in Binner coming into this season after how he played last season, but he's really looked like a lesser version of himself since around the time he took the franchise wins record, including in this tournament. He's not gonna be the guy in net for us the next time we win a playoff series. At this point I hope Canada puts in Hill and USA puts 10 past him on Thursday.
 
Yes, Binny is doing a good job against a less-talented Finland team. He's had a few great games for the Blues this season too. Unfortunately since the end of November, they're usually followed by a 3+ goal game (a lot of time a 4 or 5 goal game), which could be a good sign for the Americans.

Some of these metrics are a far better gauge than random Blues fan forum opinion.

I thought team quality didn't matter? I've said that if the Blues were a better team that his numbers would be better. Unfortunately we're the inferior team more often than not this year.

So, last year he was 5th in the league in GSAx, this year he's like 30th or something. So is he a good goalie or not? Goalie numbers fluctuate so much from year to year that you have to look at the bigger picture. Last year Swayman and Bobrovsky were right next to Binner near the top of the list, and this year they are right next to him farther down the list. Hellebuyck is first in GSAx, which makes sense, but Jake Allen is 5th in the league. Would Blues fans rather have him back instead of Binner? Logan Thompson and Daccord are 2nd and 3rd this year but were 24th and 26th last year. Basically every goalie fluctuates from year to year except for a very small group.

I'd like to see what Binner's GSAx is in close games and take out the goals he let in that make a 4-1 game 5-1 because a lot of goals don't really affect the outcome of games, yet they will be included in their overall stats. Obviously Binner hasn't played as well this year as he did last year, but the team also hasn't been anywhere near good enough either. All I'm saying is that if the team plays well enough, then I have faith in Binner, regardless of what his numbers are right this moment.

I have a feeling Canada is gonna win on Thursday and maybe Binner will start getting a little more respect around the hockey world. His numbers may not look great in a vacuum, but if he goes 3-1 and helps Canada win then it won't really matter. Of course if he blows it, then he may have to relinquish his Canadian citizenship.
 
I turned it off at 3-0, saw it was 4-0 in the 3rd and come back to see it was 4-3 game with a ENG


finland:
1st goal, 100% soft. Binner off his angle. Bad Goal.
2nd goal is just pure chaos. Canada players should clear rebounds and bodies better. Binner also needs to stop flopping like a fish and losing his stick in the process.
3rd goal is bad D, can't let them walk into the slot there

Canada is lucky that Finland came out flat as shit and also that a lame tiebreaker is the reason they are advancing.

USA will likely roll over them Thursday tbh unless the officials are a joke.
 
I thought team quality didn't matter? I've said that if the Blues were a better team that his numbers would be better. Unfortunately we're the inferior team more often than not this year.

So, last year he was 5th in the league in GSAx, this year he's like 30th or something. So is he a good goalie or not? Goalie numbers fluctuate so much from year to year that you have to look at the bigger picture. Last year Swayman and Bobrovsky were right next to Binner near the top of the list, and this year they are right next to him farther down the list. Hellebuyck is first in GSAx, which makes sense, but Jake Allen is 5th in the league. Would Blues fans rather have him back instead of Binner? Logan Thompson and Daccord are 2nd and 3rd this year but were 24th and 26th last year. Basically every goalie fluctuates from year to year except for a very small group.

I'd like to see what Binner's GSAx is in close games and take out the goals he let in that make a 4-1 game 5-1 because a lot of goals don't really affect the outcome of games, yet they will be included in their overall stats. Obviously Binner hasn't played as well this year as he did last year, but the team also hasn't been anywhere near good enough either. All I'm saying is that if the team plays well enough, then I have faith in Binner, regardless of what his numbers are right this moment.

I have a feeling Canada is gonna win on Thursday and maybe Binner will start getting a little more respect around the hockey world. His numbers may not look great in a vacuum, but if he goes 3-1 and helps Canada win then it won't really matter. Of course if he blows it, then he may have to relinquish his Canadian citizenship.
I've been pretty vocal in the past in saying that there are few goaltenders I'd rather have in a playoff series than Binnington, and overall, he's been one of the best Blues goaltenders of all time. I feel like I'm also being lumped in with certain posters who think he's a bad goaltender, which couldn't be further from the truth.

I think he is struggling though, not just on the stat sheet, but his mechanics aren't as solid as they have been, his reaction time has seemed a tick slow over the last couple of months, and because of that, I've started to question, "What's wrong with Binny?" He just doesn't look right to me. Even when he was getting lit up two seasons ago, I had more confidence in him individually.

Would I prefer Allen to Binnington? No, but that's because the overall body of recent work isn't outweighed by what we've seen from Binnington at his best. However, if Binnington doesn't clean up his game while the team is feeling the need to dissect the core further, we could be reaching a point where there's a cheaper option available who can play at a replacement level, which is essentially the level he's playing at this season.

Now, I wouldn't be at all surprised if he held USA to fewer than two goals on Thursday. His compete level is off the charts. I want USA to win, but if they must lose, I'd love for Binnington to shove it in people's faces. Judging by the first few games of the tournament though, he'll need a shutout to quiet any criticisms on social media, and even then, I'm sure they'll give all the credit to Cale Makar. As a Blues and Jordan Binnington fan, it only helps us if he plays lights out.

Still, it doesn’t quiet the doubts I have about what I’m seeing this season outside of the stat sheet. I've defended him in this thread after each game for reasons you've suggested, but you can't deny that he's given up a soft goal in every start of this tournament. That to me aligns with what I've seen from him with the Blues this season. The overall body of work has raised doubts. Something is off. I'm not used to seeing him give up soft goals at the same rate that he has this season. He's done it in every game of this tournament. His overall body of work hasn't been bad this season, just as I’d say he hasn’t been bad during the 4 Nations Face Off, but he’s not making the stops that we used to be able to count on him to make, and I think it’s reasonable to question why.

For me, it’s too easy to chalk it up to defense when, by most metrics, our defense has been solid at worst since Monty took over. The D doesn’t look anywhere near as bad as it did in 2022-23, that’s for sure.

At the end of the day, Binnington is a solid but slightly overpaid 1A who has a history of big game competitiveness. That’s my honest assessment after watching nearly every one of his starts over the last few seasons. Can he return to being that guy who has enough ups to outweigh the downs? I hope so, and it wouldn’t surprise me. That’s the only justification I need as a fan to say, Eh, he's paid a bit much, but I see no problem rolling with him. But I think it’s fair to question his play this season and, if it continues, begin to ask the difficult question of whether we're reaching the point where it may be better to turn over the reins to a different 1A with Hofer and reinvest that money elsewhere while Binnington still has value.
 
I turned it off at 3-0, saw it was 4-0 in the 3rd and come back to see it was 4-3 game with a ENG


finland:
1st goal, 100% soft. Binner off his angle. Bad Goal.
2nd goal is just pure chaos. Canada players should clear rebounds and bodies better. Binner also needs to stop flopping like a fish and losing his stick in the process.
3rd goal is bad D, can't let them walk into the slot there

Canada is lucky that Finland came out flat as shit and also that a lame tiebreaker is the reason they are advancing.

USA will likely roll over them Thursday tbh unless the officials are a joke.

I don't think he was off his angle on goal 1. Looks to be a terrific shot below the blocker and above the pad
2nd goal was chaos for sure but as far as losing the stick, he dropped it on purpose because it looks like he felt it was stuck on someone, so either drop it or be way out of position. prolly made the wrong choice
wow that 3rd goal looked like typical Blues defense.
 

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