Player Discussion Alexis Lafreniere

[NYR Viper]

I think we all need to understand that if Lafreniere can turn the corner and get to a 60-70 point player that's a win. And I am talking this type of production in a few years. We may be looking at someone who hovers around 50-60 points for the majority of his career and that's a useful player, especially if he can develop into a winger who can play both sides and his contracts are in line with his production.

 

[mas0764]

Who knows what is going to happen with this guy at this point

All I’ll say is, it’s just the Rangers luck to fall ass backwards into the 1st overall pick and have it be a guy that looks like he peaked in juniors lmao

They have misdeveloped their kids, it's not really a debate.

But yeah it would be our luck to get the guy who did need assistance, and not Connor Bedard who can score 70 points as a rookie in the NHL without a coach.

 

[B17 Apricots]

It's so strange to see the player he was in juniors and then in the NHL.. and it doesn't really appear to be a case where a guys game just doesn't translate to the pros. That was an issue we saw with Duclair initially. You could tell he oozed skill but he still had "junior" tendencies. He'd try to dangle guys constantly, times where the puck needs to get deep and he'd turn it over. Those kinds of things. With Laf it's like a whole different player. And you don't want it to come off like a scapegoat, but the things we heard players say about Quinn... you'll hear just about every coach say the same sort of things about training young players to be pros. But when you're seeing the same things in just about every young forward we've brought in during that time frame, it can't be a coincidence. We know Kakko said he didn't feel comfortable playing his game under DQ. You're taking young impressionable teenagers and saying, don't do what made you top picks, you have to play this way to stick in the NHL. Don't stick handle, get the puck in and get back on D. I think that's the result of what we've seen for nearly half a decade worth of forward prospects. They coached them to be risk averse responsible pros at the cost of their natural offensive instincts. It's absolutely absurd that Kaapo Kakko was one of the best Finnish prospects to come out, while Lafreniere was also pegged as a cant miss franchise level winger and both have been disappointing. Along with our former 7th overall pick, 9th overall pick and until recently our 21st overall pick as well. Edmonton got shit on for their dogshit player development for years ... well we're an embarrassment.

 

[mas0764]

When was Lafrenière considered a "near generational player"? Tell us. Huberdeau was his comparable coming out of the draft. Not McDavid or even Matthews. Huberdeau is not a "near generational" player. Good solid player. Huberdeau finished 5th in the Hart voting a couple of years ago.

How many "generational players" are playing in the game today?

How do you know he doesn’t have the commitment? You listen to Valiquette on a podcast question Lafreniere's commitment to training. How does he know? Steve is dizzy from all of the hair spray. That guy thought Kane would be the answer to the Rangers issues of getting inside the paint to score goals. Steve should go back and chart scoring chances.

Laf was hyped as more than Huberdeau when he came out, though yes, less than Matthews or MacKinnon. He was said to be nearly on par with those two and clearly behind Crosby/McDavid.

But we don't have to go into all that - he was at least the equivalent as a prospect as Jack Hughes. The contrast there is stark enough.

I maintain that with Lafreniere it's in his head.

He has the tools (except maybe skating). The rest, he's just lost. He doesn't know where to be on the ice, when to pass vs when to shoot, and making those decisions takes him too long and then he has to rush, and then he boofs it.

 

[Bacon Artemi Bravo]

Laffy is already a better player than Killorn and his usage has been less than Killorn has ever had to deal with.

Terrible comparison, imo.

I think you'll be pleasantly surprised when you look back on Laffys career one day in the future

To those of you who think this is somehow already disproven. This opinion hasnt changed after 2 preseason games. That would be silly.

 

[Synergy27]

When was Lafrenière considered a "near generational player"? Tell us. Huberdeau was his comparable coming out of the draft. Not McDavid or even Matthews. Huberdeau is not a "near generational" player. Good solid player. Huberdeau finished 5th in the Hart voting a couple of years ago.

How many "generational players" are playing in the game today?

How do you know he doesn’t have the commitment? You listen to Valiquette on a podcast question Lafreniere's commitment to training. How does he know? Steve is dizzy from all of the hair spray. That guy thought Kane would be the answer to the Rangers issues of getting inside the paint to score goals. Steve should go back and chart scoring chances.

Poor use of adjective on my part. Not near generational. But yes, very good, high end, very worthy of a 1OA pick is what he was billed as.

But yeah, you’ve got Vally saying what he said. That can’t be ignored. I also tend to focus on his attitude on the ice. He’s always got that dumb smile on his face. I don’t see anger, desperation, passion. The kind of shit that drives people to be the best.

And yeah, I am citing a lack of content as evidence here. I understand that that is a questionable thing to do. But I firmly believe that if this kid was putting in the insane amount of work that is required to be an elite player in this league, we’d have heard about it. All I have ever heard or seen regarding this is that he lifted some weights in his garage during the pandemic.

 

[NickyFotiu]

No point in comparing, but it does blow me away that Bedard (okay, he’s actually a truly special prospect, I get that part) turned 18 like 50ish days ago and in his first pre-season game immediately picks up two primary assists including a slick OT winner. Laf is definitely getting close to shit or get off the pot territory and is a veteran of 216 NHL games plus some solid playoff experience, yet even against rosters of half AHL and junior bound players, he still just can’t stand out. I know there’s no relation but there is frustration. For where he is in his career, I had just hoped he was showing up to camp looking as if it was the gold medal game at the WJC and he gave a damn again, but I just see a guy who continues to be content just being here. Meh.

The NHL game is more about quickness than any time I can remember. Some light guys who are quick now excel when in past eras they would have had some problems with the physicality. Connor has that fast twitch quickness. Connor has that shot. Laf is going to have to find something that he excels in.

 

[NickyFotiu]

I think we all need to understand that if Lafreniere can turn the corner and get to a 60-70 point player that's a win. And I am talking this type of production in a few years. We may be looking at someone who hovers around 50-60 points for the majority of his career and that's a useful player, especially if he can develop into a winger who can play both sides and his contracts are in line with his production.

60-70 points would be a win. I agree. Not what we hoped with the #1 pick but a solid producing asset.

 

[NickyFotiu]

They have misdeveloped their kids, it's not really a debate.

But yeah it would be our luck to get the guy who did need assistance, and not Connor Bedard who can score 70 points as a rookie in the NHL without a coach.

LOL if you believe something it is not a debate? It is a debate to me. I do not think any of our young guys from Fox to Laffy to Miller to Kakko to Schneider to Lias would have done substantially better on any other team. You can give me the best coaches in the world and my ceiling would still be 3rd line college player. The same Oilers team that has "developed" McDavid and Leo also have had first round busts. They are not good coaches for some players and bad coaches for other players. When Mathews scores 4 goals in his first NHL game it is not because Toronto coaches developed him.

 

[NickyFotiu]

It's so strange to see the player he was in juniors and then in the NHL.. and it doesn't really appear to be a case where a guys game just doesn't translate to the pros. That was an issue we saw with Duclair initially. You could tell he oozed skill but he still had "junior" tendencies. He'd try to dangle guys constantly, times where the puck needs to get deep and he'd turn it over. Those kinds of things. With Laf it's like a whole different player. And you don't want it to come off like a scapegoat, but the things we heard players say about Quinn... you'll hear just about every coach say the same sort of things about training young players to be pros. But when you're seeing the same things in just about every young forward we've brought in during that time frame, it can't be a coincidence. We know Kakko said he didn't feel comfortable playing his game under DQ. You're taking young impressionable teenagers and saying, don't do what made you top picks, you have to play this way to stick in the NHL. Don't stick handle, get the puck in and get back on D. I think that's the result of what we've seen for nearly half a decade worth of forward prospects. They coached them to be risk averse responsible pros at the cost of their natural offensive instincts. It's absolutely absurd that Kaapo Kakko was one of the best Finnish prospects to come out, while Lafreniere was also pegged as a cant miss franchise level winger and both have been disappointing. Along with our former 7th overall pick, 9th overall pick and until recently our 21st overall pick as well. Edmonton got shit on for their dogshit player development for years ... well we're an embarrassment.

I thought Laf looked like he had skating issues even in his highlight clips the night of the draft. I just hoped I was wrong and that the talking heads were right. I do remember they asked Laf about the skating concerns the night of the draft lottery and he laughed saying he can skate.

Lias looked like a bad draft pick in a bad draft. We wanted to trade up. We tried to trade up. Nobody was thrilled with anyone after the top 5 in that draft. When your ceiling on draft night is described as Jesper Fast you are not expected to be a star player. Even my dad who was not a hockey player said is it just me or did the guy the Rangers drafted at #21 look a lot better than the guy they drafted at #7? I told him I agree. The irony is Fast was one of my dads favorite players.

When we drafted Krav we knew we were taking a chance. He was a guy with good offensive hockey skills (unlike Lias) we hoped would make a difference but other concerns. Well years later on multiple teams both in North America and in Russia Krav still fits that description.

 

[ReddestRum]

I think we all need to understand that if Lafreniere can turn the corner and get to a 60-70 point player that's a win. And I am talking this type of production in a few years. We may be looking at someone who hovers around 50-60 points for the majority of his career and that's a useful player, especially if he can develop into a winger who can play both sides and his contracts are in line with his production.

If Laf can get to 60 points this year it will be an absolute win.

 

[savebyrichter94]

I feel like he’s gonna end up in a trade that brings back what seems like not enough but those pieces end up helping us more

 

[mas0764]

LOL if you believe something it is not a debate? It is a debate to me.

It's not about what I believe, it's about facts.

Every one of our recent forward picks has essentially underperformed.

Even Chytil. Where is the breakout? He's not even Robert Thomas.

There's not another rational explanation.

The board's general angst with the past two coaches alone would substantiate this.

 

[duhmetreE]

We were talking about it, watching FLA in the Playoffs. Laffy needs to be playing like Tkachuk or Bennett. Cuylle and Othmann fit that style to a T and it is what Laffy needs to emulate.

I see a possible similar progression/trajectory to Bennett... hopefully it doesn't take changing teams for him to realize his potential. Can't give up on him. Hopefully the staff help form his identity in the NHL

 

[mas0764]

Laf as Tkachuk would be cool.

 

[bhamill]

It's not about what I believe, it's about facts.

Every one of our recent forward picks has essentially underperformed.

Even Chytil. Where is the breakout? He's not even Robert Thomas.

There's not another rational explanation.

The board's general angst with the past two coaches alone would substantiate this.

It’s a fact that NYR did not “invest“ in the kid forwards’ development. And not being a bottom feeder team, I see the logic of the tact taken. That doesn’t change the fact that the kids are behind where they should be in their development at least PARTLY due to that. You can blame the players as well if you like, but they absolutely did not get the opportunities and responsibilities that players like Hughes, Stutzle, etc, got, didnt get normal “high pick” treatment. Of course there’s no guarantee they would be stars or anything by now, but NOT getting the opportunities, the investment, pretty much guaranteed they WOULDN’T be stars yet. They groomed them to be what they are now: good support players. Anyone who says Laf, in a vacuum, is NOT already a good NHLer and valuable player is either dumb or spinning a narrative.
I think it’ll be another two years before we see what they can really be. Maybe less if Lavi commits to giving them responsible reps, lots of time, and a long leash, with top six linemates. If they get yanked every time there’s a hiccup, expect more stagnation.

 

[xsniper11x]

It's not about what I believe, it's about facts.

Every one of our recent forward picks has essentially underperformed.

Even Chytil. Where is the breakout? He's not even Robert Thomas.

There's not another rational explanation.

The board's general angst with the past two coaches alone would substantiate this.

Funny enough, Chytil had about the same ESP as Thomas last year, despite significantly less TOI (about 4 mins). Thomas def had a very impressive season prior to that, but then regressed heavily.

Usage always has to be taken into context. Tbh, I think that is half the problem w/ our development. Leaning on our vets at F instead of letting kids play. It’s no coincidence it’s been the opposite at D and G, where our kids have flourished for years.

 

[PANARIN BREAD FAN]

i don't care about all the records that he set at the qmjhl league. think of of all the players that had scoring stats that were nearly as good as those of #13 - about 90-95% can't even make it to the nhl as a 4th liner. bollet in tampa as an example.

13 peaked 2 playoffs ago. that guy i liked. we all saw it. something within him just clicked and he was doing real productive impactful icework - the type of stuff one would understandably expect from a 1OA. where the phuck is that guy?

for the sake of experimentation why not lineup 13 with one of lavi's guys in bonino? not exactly what most want to hear but all the other configurations have already been tried. the kid line is always readily available as a last resort.

 

[PANARIN BREAD FAN]

let me pose this to y'all. ok - let's say all the stars in the universe were to somehow align miraculously and 13 hits 60 pts or above say 2-3 years from now. do y'all honestly think that he's going to that consistently throughout the rest of his career? maybe he can do it again one more time. but then again are y'all wiling to go through all of that frustration waiting for something as unlikely as that to finally happen, and will it have been worth it?

 

[DanielBrassard]

"All hope was lost after pre-season game 2 of 21 year old Alexis Lafrenière's career.."

So silly.

He’s basically 22

 

[will1066]

Amazing Kreiderman denies owning a Laf Rimouski jersey, much less wearing it.

 

[Rongomania]

He’s basically 22

Yes I know.

Even if I wanted to change it, which I don't, it's still 100% applicable. Thanks!

 

[Synergy27]

For all of those that will be content when he becomes a 60-70 point player, I just hope you realize that scoring in the league is WAY up and that 60 points isn’t an impressive total at all anymore.

There were 11 100 point players last year, another two had 99. There were 28 PPG (82+ point scorers), including Ranger cast off JT Miller.

Trocheck scored 64 points last year.

60 points is what good offensive defenseman score nowadays. 60 points from a 1OA is an abject failure and what’s great is that we are treating that as though it’s a guarantee he reaches that mark when it’s at best a 50/50 chance.

 

[Greg02]

For all of those that will be content when he becomes a 60-70 point player, I just hope you realize that scoring in the league is WAY up and that 60 points isn’t an impressive total at all anymore.

There were 11 100 point players last year, another two had 99. There were 28 PPG (82+ point scorers), including Ranger cast off JT Miller.

Trocheck scored 64 points last year.

60 points is what good offensive defenseman score nowadays. 60 points from a 1OA is an abject failure and what’s great is that we are treating that as though it’s a guarantee he reaches that mark when it’s at best a 50/50 chance.

How you get 60 points matters too. You can be a valuable 60 point player who does all the little things well, or Nik Zherdev out of the league despite leading his team in points.

 

[PANARIN BREAD FAN]

For all of those that will be content when he becomes a 60-70 point player, I just hope you realize that scoring in the league is WAY up and that 60 points isn’t an impressive total at all anymore.

There were 11 100 point players last year, another two had 99. There were 28 PPG (82+ point scorers), including Ranger cast off JT Miller.

Trocheck scored 64 points last year.

60 points is what good offensive defenseman score nowadays. 60 points from a 1OA is an abject failure and what’s great is that we are treating that as though it’s a guarantee he reaches that mark when it’s at best a 50/50 chance.

this is of no relevance regarding #13 - he has to show that he accomplishes that feat first, whether or not scoring was at a higher rate as you alluded to. it's been 3 seasons already, and even despite infrequent brief flashes here and there, overall he hasn't shown any signs of being near that mark.