Player Discussion Alexis Lafreniere

[NickyFotiu]

It's not about what I believe, it's about facts.

Every one of our recent forward picks has essentially underperformed.

Even Chytil. Where is the breakout? He's not even Robert Thomas.

There's not another rational explanation.

The board's general angst with the past two coaches alone would substantiate this.

Your opinion does not make something a fact. Chytil being 24 year old a 22 goal 45 point center is actually a moderate success as a #21 pick. Its funny you say he isn't even Robert Thomas (a very good player drafted ahead of Chytil) yet you ignore all the guys drafted before him that have not performed as well. Please tell me how the Rangers were supposed to make Lias and Krav in to star players. Why didn't the Kings? Why didn't the Canucks? Why aren't any NHL teams jumping to get them if all they needed was the right coaching? On draft night Lias was compared to Jesper Fast. That alone should tell everyone his ceiling was limited. You seem to be invested in this narrative that is just lazy at best. Please tell me what you would have done to make Lias and Krav in to star forwards. If you have the answer why are you here with us? You could make many millions if you could show NHL teams how to do that. Hockey is not the kind of sport that coaching can turn a Jesper Fast in to a Crosby. If there was any coach on the planet that can do that they could earn $25 mill a year.

 

[will1066]

Drury and the FO when they trade Laf

 

[Bob Richards]

Kakko is probably the better fit on the top line and Laf on the third line.

He's "bad" because of the grading curve. Throw out preconceived notions and he's actually been mid, nothing stood out but nothing terribad.

Most egregious sports sin.

He’s not good so we can’t celebrate his success. But he’s not awful so we can’t self flagellate like it’s the black plague.

Lafreniere merely is. Functional. Acceptable. A guy. Mediocre.

David Desharnais eating eating a ham and cheese sandwich with no condiments.

 

[Synergy27]

this is of no relevance regarding #13 - he has to show that he accomplishes that feat first, whether or not scoring was at a higher rate as you alluded to. it's been 3 seasons already, and even despite infrequent brief flashes here and there, overall he hasn't shown any signs of being near that mark.

I have no idea what this response means in context with what I posted. I think we are both saying that Laf sucks?

 

[bhamill]

He’s basically 22

And yet still 21. What he is most importantly is a D+4 player.

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

Your opinion does not make something a fact. Chytil being 24 year old a 22 goal 45 point center is actually a moderate success as a #21 pick. Its funny you say he isn't even Robert Thomas (a very good player drafted ahead of Chytil) yet you ignore all the guys drafted before him that have not performed as well. Please tell me how the Rangers were supposed to make Lias and Krav in to star players. Why didn't the Kings? Why didn't the Canucks? Why aren't any NHL teams jumping to get them if all they needed was the right coaching? On draft night Lias was compared to Jesper Fast. That alone should tell everyone his ceiling was limited. You seem to be invested in this narrative that is just lazy at best. Please tell me what you would have done to make Lias and Krav in to star forwards. If you have the answer why are you here with us? You could make many millions if you could show NHL teams how to do that. Hockey is not the kind of sport that coaching can turn a Jesper Fast in to a Crosby. If there was any coach on the planet that can do that they could earn $25 mill a year.

He would have traded Kredier, not signed Panarin or traded for Trouba (maybe kept Zib is he accepted a 3year deal?). He would have thrown out an undermanned lineup every night and force fed kids minutes they couldn't handle in roles they weren't ready for.

 

[NickyFotiu]

It’s a fact that NYR did not “invest“ in the kid forwards’ development. And not being a bottom feeder team, I see the logic of the tact taken. That doesn’t change the fact that the kids are behind where they should be in their development at least PARTLY due to that. You can blame the players as well if you like, but they absolutely did not get the opportunities and responsibilities that players like Hughes, Stutzle, etc, got, didnt get normal “high pick” treatment. Of course there’s no guarantee they would be stars or anything by now, but NOT getting the opportunities, the investment, pretty much guaranteed they WOULDN’T be stars yet. They groomed them to be what they are now: good support players. Anyone who says Laf, in a vacuum, is NOT already a good NHLer and valuable player is either dumb or spinning a narrative.
I think it’ll be another two years before we see what they can really be. Maybe less if Lavi commits to giving them responsible reps, lots of time, and a long leash, with top six linemates. If they get yanked every time there’s a hiccup, expect more stagnation.

I do not see Laf getting yanked every time there is a hiccup. I have seen an organization that did give him steady even strength minutes. I think they were around the same amount as Kreider and Zibs last season. I would actually give Laf and KK a chance to kill PP. My hope is the open ice might build their confidence. I have seen that before with other players. I really could not care less about stats. I wish people would stop focusing on them so much. Laf played last game with the first line. Was he yanked around? How did he look? I want him to look great. I do not care if he had 0 points or 3 points. I just want him to look really good. No the best players in this league usually show why they are great. For some its size. Some its speed. Some its shooting. Many have a combination. Kakko shows good puck possession skills. Looking at Laf I'm just waiting hoping he shows me what makes him great. The best thing I have seen is a good ability to raise his backhand shot in close. That is a positive. Hopefully this is the season things click and he shows something great. I'm hoping to hear soon that the coaches are really impressed with how much Laf improved his skating and conditioning in the offseason. That would be great news.

 

[bhamill]

For all of those that will be content when he becomes a 60-70 point player, I just hope you realize that scoring in the league is WAY up and that 60 points isn’t an impressive total at all anymore.

There were 11 100 point players last year, another two had 99. There were 28 PPG (82+ point scorers), including Ranger cast off JT Miller.

Trocheck scored 64 points last year.

60 points is what good offensive defenseman score nowadays. 60 points from a 1OA is an abject failure and what’s great is that we are treating that as though it’s a guarantee he reaches that mark when it’s at best a 50/50 chance.

So there were less ppg players last year than there were teams...
How many 40 point players were there that didn’t get legit pp opportunity? And, no, 30 second pp2 shifts are not legit power play opportunity Even if you get 6 shits (3 min) a game of them. It’s not enough time to make a difference on a pp.
But you are conflating people saying that a 60-70 point player is valuable in this league with anyone saying they’d be ”content” with our 1OA becoming a 60-70 point player. I think the only ones saying they’d be happy with that are those that feel he’s a bust at 21. I know I won’t be content, but I’ll accept it if it’s the reality and know that’s still important for the team. And Id rather have a 60-70 pt player that steps up in the playoffs than a 90 player who disappears. There’s a lot more to contributing than your regular season point totals.

 

[NickyFotiu]

He would have traded Kredier, not signed Panarin or traded for Trouba (maybe kept Zib is he accepted a 3year deal?). He would have thrown out an undermanned lineup every night and force fed kids minutes they couldn't handle in roles they weren't ready for.

The Yankees had done that in the past and ruined some guys.

I wish people would understand that unless all you care about is stats, guys show their skills in the first 14 minutes of games the same way they show them in minutes 16-18. If a guy is not showing you great skill and results in his first 14 minutes it is not going to change in minutes 16-18. Guys do not become great skaters and great puck handlers in minutes 16-18 if they do not show those skills in minutes 1-14. If Laf turns the corner (I really hope he does) we will see it in minutes 1-14. We will not have to wait for minutes 16-18 to see a better player.

I can promise you if I lace up the skates for the NY Rangers next 10 games you will see what kind of skills I have in my first 10 minutes a game. You will not need to play me 18 minutes a game to see what skills (or lack of) I bring to the table.

 

[bhamill]

I do not see Laf getting yanked every time there is a hiccup. I have seen an organization that did give him steady even strength minutes. I think they were around the same amount as Kreider and Zibs last season. I would actually give Laf and KK a chance to kill PP. My hope is the open ice might build their confidence. I have seen that before with other players. I really could not care less about stats. I wish people would stop focusing on them so much. Laf played last game with the first line. Was he yanked around? How did he look? I want him to look great. I do not care if he had 0 points or 3 points. I just want him to look really good. No the best players in this league usually show why they are great. For some its size. Some its speed. Some its shooting. Many have a combination. Kakko shows good puck possession skills. Looking at Laf I'm just waiting hoping he shows me what makes him great. The best thing I have seen is a good ability to raise his backhand shot in close. That is a positive. Hopefully this is the season things click and he shows something great. I'm hoping to hear soon that the coaches are really impressed with how much Laf improved his skating and conditioning in the offseason. That would be great news.

Yes, Laf and Kakko were regularly yanked from lines or given less TOI when there were hiccups. I didn’t mean yanked from the lineup if that’s how you took it.
I thought Laf actually looked pretty good most of the game at RW (a position he’d played, what, one previous pro game at?) on that line. Just like the rest of the line looked okay. No he didn’t get yanked around like the last three years and that’s a hopeful sign from Lavi. It’s exactly what I’m hoping will continue in the regular season.
I also hope to hear that about Laf’s off-season. But my point doesn’t depend on any of that.

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

The Yankees had done that in the past and ruined some guys.

I wish people would understand that unless all you care about is stats, guys show their skills in the first 14 minutes of games the same way they show them in minutes 16-18. If a guy is not showing you great skill and results in his first 14 minutes it is not going to change in minutes 16-18. Guys do not become great skaters and great puck handlers in minutes 16-18 if they do not show those skills in minutes 1-14. If Laf turns the corner (I really hope he does) we will see it in minutes 1-14. We will not have to wait for minutes 16-18 to see a better player.

I can promise you if I lace up the skates for the NY Rangers next 10 games you will see what kind of skills I have in my first 10 minutes a game. You will not need to play me 18 minutes a game to see what skills (or lack of) I bring to the table.

These are the same people who think that PP time is what's keeping Laff from being on the same level as Jack Hughes.

 

[PANARIN BREAD FAN]

I have no idea what this response means in context with what I posted. I think we are both saying that Laf sucks?

nah i get the gist of your post - 60-70 pts in not that big of a deal nowadays. what i'm driving is that 13 has to show on ice and paper that he can reach that level of productivity. once he does somehow to reach that level then yeah your point(s) will begin to become relevant, but he's gotta do it first.

 

[NickyFotiu]

Yes, Laf and Kakko were regularly yanked from lines or given less TOI when there were hiccups. I didn’t mean yanked from the lineup if that’s how you took it.
I thought Laf actually looked pretty good most of the game at RW (a position he’d played, what, one previous pro game at?) on that line. Just like the rest of the line looked okay. No he didn’t get yanked around like the last three years and that’s a hopeful sign from Lavi. It’s exactly what I’m hoping will continue in the regular season.
I also hope to hear that about Laf’s off-season. But my point doesn’t depend on any of that.

Well I did not see Laf play last night so I can not comment. I did see the one clip with Kreider and he did look a little stronger. That is a positive. I believe we all should be rooting for Laf. Anyone wanting to be right by Laf failing is dead wrong imo. On the other hand anyone that places blame for Laf's skills on everyone but Laf is also dead wrong.

I want Laf to be great. I do not care about his stats. Just show me improvement. That is all I ask and I think it is reasonable. Show me improved skating and conditioning. If you show me that I will defend you for sure.

 

[Kravtsov420]

For all of those that will be content when he becomes a 60-70 point player, I just hope you realize that scoring in the league is WAY up and that 60 points isn’t an impressive total at all anymore.

There were 11 100 point players last year, another two had 99. There were 28 PPG (82+ point scorers), including Ranger cast off JT Miller.

Trocheck scored 64 points last year.

60 points is what good offensive defenseman score nowadays. 60 points from a 1OA is an abject failure and what’s great is that we are treating that as though it’s a guarantee he reaches that mark when it’s at best a 50/50 chance.

I would be above the moon if he had 60 points to be honest, that's where we're at.

 

[mas0764]

Please tell me what you would have done to make Lias and Krav in to star forwards. If you have the answer why are you here with us?

Zzzzz

Identifying that the roof leaks doesn't mean I'm a carpenter.

 

[ReddestRum]

I would be above the moon if he had 60 points to be honest, that's where we're at.

LMFAO. Exactly. We've gone from hoping this guy would be the face of this f***ing franchise to hoping he hits 60 after netting a whopping 39 points in the season and a goose egg in the playoffs.

But let's blindly throw PP minutes at the guy so he can continue try to McDavid or Bedard his way into a turnover at the blue line that leads to more short-handed breakaways because he's too damn slow in every facet of his game.

 

[NickyFotiu]

Zzzzz

Identifying that the roof leaks doesn't mean I'm a carpenter.

Especially if you identify an attic water pipe leak as a roof leak ........

 

[RangersFan1994]

I wonder if other players either on the Rangers in practice or on other teams would chirp at Lafréniere calling him a 1st overall bust. Maybe that would get him to care about his game and actually work to improve his skills.

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

I wonder if other players either on the Rangers in practice or on other teams would chirp at Lafréniere calling him a 1st overall bust. Maybe that would get him to care about his game and actually work to improve his skills.

So we've resorted to hoping name calling lights a fire under his ass?

He's playing for a new coach, in a new system, in a new position, it's not going to click overnight. I'v been down on Laff a lot but let's give him a chance.

 

[HockeyBasedNYC]

I do not see Laf getting yanked every time there is a hiccup. I have seen an organization that did give him steady even strength minutes. I think they were around the same amount as Kreider and Zibs last season. I would actually give Laf and KK a chance to kill PP. My hope is the open ice might build their confidence. I have seen that before with other players. I really could not care less about stats. I wish people would stop focusing on them so much. Laf played last game with the first line. Was he yanked around? How did he look? I want him to look great. I do not care if he had 0 points or 3 points. I just want him to look really good. No the best players in this league usually show why they are great. For some its size. Some its speed. Some its shooting. Many have a combination. Kakko shows good puck possession skills. Looking at Laf I'm just waiting hoping he shows me what makes him great. The best thing I have seen is a good ability to raise his backhand shot in close. That is a positive. Hopefully this is the season things click and he shows something great. I'm hoping to hear soon that the coaches are really impressed with how much Laf improved his skating and conditioning in the offseason. That would be great news.

I'm not sure we will get that news, to be honest.

However, it doesn't mean he will or will not have a good/better/breakout year. Things could look pretty meh with him for the first quarter of the season and then it all clicks.

If the Rangers are serious about giving him a shot, then stick with it. He's been given opportunities like this in the past, he just hasn't seized the moment. Media outside of the Rangers are writing about how hell finally get his shot on the top line with real minutes (and possibly some PP time). Well he's been extended that chance (save the PP time) a few times, but not really given a long leash. He started the past couple of camps on the top line the same he was this year except it was on the left and it was short lived.

They are finding a spot for him on the right side, but the truth is it isn't his natural position. They need to give him time. If he sucks or is just ok and unnoticeable after 30-35 games... so be it. If he starts to gain some traction and you can keep him there as an effective player in that spot - awesome.

If you take him off the first line and hes effective on the 2nd or 3rd halfway through it doesnt mean hes a bust. This doesnt have to be his breakout year - for himself, as an individual. Unfortunately at 22, he's staring the NY fanbase and media in the eyes like it is. Debate all you want about how it reached this point but thats a fact. But at least give him a long look.

I'm not sure if the point totals will knock us over, but theres a lot riding on him meeting expectations for a 1OA and whatever that equates to in point totals will be the bar, depending on his usage. Its just the way it is. Results.

He's gone from having the excuse of being a 3rd line player because of the top 6 talent on this team to having to prove it in the top 6. But he needs to be extended the proper time and he needs to seize the opportunity regardless of his skillset and how he looks out there, imo. He could look like the same player with the same skill issues and pot 20 in the first half of the season, or rack up 30 assists. People will be signing his praises but they wont mention his skating is the same.

And all of this could very well be premature for him. Maybe for whatever reason he's a late bloomer in the league and he becomes who he thought he was going to be at the age of 26. Maybe on another team at that point.

 

[NickyFotiu]

I'm not sure we will get that news, to be honest.

However, it doesn't mean he will or will not have a good/better/breakout year. Things could look pretty meh with him for the first quarter of the season and then it all clicks.

If the Rangers are serious about giving him a shot, then stick with it. He's been given opportunities like this in the past, he just hasn't seized the moment. Media outside of the Rangers are writing about how hell finally get his shot on the top line with real minutes (and possibly some PP time). Well he's been extended that chance (save the PP time) a few times, but not really given a long leash. He started the past couple of camps on the top line the same he was this year except it was on the left and it was short lived.

They are finding a spot for him on the right side, but the truth is it isn't his natural position. They need to give him time. If he sucks or is just ok and unnoticeable after 30-35 games... so be it. If he starts to gain some traction and you can keep him there as an effective player in that spot - awesome.

If you take him off the first line and hes effective on the 2nd or 3rd halfway through it doesnt mean hes a bust. This doesnt have to be his breakout year - for himself, as an individual. Unfortunately at 22, he's staring the NY fanbase and media in the eyes like it is. Debate all you want about how it reached this point but thats a fact. But at least give him a long look.

I'm not sure if the point totals will knock us over, but theres a lot riding on him meeting expectations for a 1OA and whatever that equates to in point totals will be the bar, depending on his usage. Its just the way it is. Results.

He's gone from having the excuse of being a 3rd line player because of the top 6 talent on this team to having to prove it in the top 6. But he needs to be extended the proper time and he needs to seize the opportunity regardless of his skillset and how he looks out there, imo. He could look like the same player with the same skill issues and pot 20 in the first half of the season, or rack up 30 assists. People will be signing his praises but they wont mention his skating is the same.

And all of this could very well be premature for him. Maybe for whatever reason he's a late bloomer in the league and he becomes who he thought he was going to be at the age of 26. Maybe on another team at that point.

I'm one of the few that doesn't sweat stats. Just show me something. Something to give me more hope. He did in the second half of 2021. Work your butt off. Get in great shape. Show the kind of motor that outworks other players. Improve your first 3 steps. If he does that I will be thrilled regardless of stats.

 

[Unusual Suspect]

He doesn't need to be a bust to be worthy of moving out; he just needs to outperform Cuylle and/or Othmann to justify taking a spot they could occupy more effectively. Based on very small sample sizes from them and a much larger one from him, this does not look anything like a slamdunk.

 

[RangerBoy]

Poor use of adjective on my part. Not near generational. But yes, very good, high end, very worthy of a 1OA pick is what he was billed as.

But yeah, you’ve got Vally saying what he said. That can’t be ignored. I also tend to focus on his attitude on the ice. He’s always got that dumb smile on his face. I don’t see anger, desperation, passion. The kind of shit that drives people to be the best.

And yeah, I am citing a lack of content as evidence here. I understand that that is a questionable thing to do. But I firmly believe that if this kid was putting in the insane amount of work that is required to be an elite player in this league, we’d have heard about it. All I have ever heard or seen regarding this is that he lifted some weights in his garage during the pandemic.

Button compared Lafrenière to Rantanan.

As a youngster, Lafreniere’s favorite player was Patrick Kane, who just happened to be Artemi Panarin’s favorite player before the Russian Rockette made it to the NHL. Then, of course, the two were teammates in Chicago. After the lottery on Monday, Lafreniere said that his favorite player to watch last season was Panarin. Now they, of course, will be teammates unless something crazy happens.

“Artemi makes his teammates better from the wing and so does Alexis,” Button said. “Usually the center makes his wingers better. Alexis is one of those unique left wings — and he is a left wing, he has played there his entire life — who makes his center better.

“My comparable is [Colorado winger] Mikko Rantanen, who is big and powerful and talented. He and [Nathan] MacKinnon make magic, so one-and-one equals three. I believe that Alexis will have that same impact.”

Roy said Lafreniere is no MacKinnon or Crosby

Roy coached MacKinnon in Colorado for the first three years of the winger’s NHL career after he’d been selected first overall in 2013 out of QMJHL Halifax. Lafreniere does not have MacKinnon’s explosiveness — few do — but no one believes skating is an issue.

“Since I got back to the league two years ago, everyone has seen Alexis as the one,” Roy said. “I’m not saying he’s [Sidney] Crosby or MacKinnon, but he is a phenomenal player in his own way.

“He’s a great playmaker. He skates really well. He goes in traffic. His shot is good. He is capable of scoring. He’s smart. He’s been dedicated for a long time to being very, very, very good.”

Alexis Lafreniere draws rave reviews as likely Rangers pick

When looking for a read on the winner of the Mike Bossy Trophy that is awarded to the best professional prospect in the Quebec Major Junior Hockey League, it is not a bad idea to check in with Mike…

nypost.com

Huberdeau or Rantanen. Both of them are very good players.

He doesn't need to be a bust to be worthy of moving out; he just needs to outperform Cuylle and/or Othmann to justify taking a spot they could occupy more effectively. Based on very small sample sizes from them and a much larger one from him, this does not look anything like a slamdunk.

Over the last two seasons, Lafreniere actually produced quite well for someone who wasn’t given much time in the top six. Dating back to the start of the 2021-22 season, he's recorded 0.87 5-on-5 goals per 60 minutes, ranking him in the 83rd percentile of all skaters that played at least 500 minutes in that span, according to NaturalStatTrick.com.

5 NHL players poised for breakout seasons in 2023-24

Will this be the year Alexis Lafreniere finally reaches his potential? Can Rasmus Sandin build on last season's strong finish?

ca.sports.yahoo.com

 

[Rongomania]

Button compared Lafrenière to Rantanan.


Roy said Lafreniere is no MacKinnon or Crosby

Alexis Lafreniere draws rave reviews as likely Rangers pick

When looking for a read on the winner of the Mike Bossy Trophy that is awarded to the best professional prospect in the Quebec Major Junior Hockey League, it is not a bad idea to check in with Mike…

nypost.com

Huberdeau or Rantanen. Both of them are very good players.

5 NHL players poised for breakout seasons in 2023-24

Will this be the year Alexis Lafreniere finally reaches his potential? Can Rasmus Sandin build on last season's strong finish?

ca.sports.yahoo.com

Oh, f*ckin' come on man.

 

[LokiDog]

The problem with Laf is that everything about him is just so pedestrian. Kakko has the board play and cycle possession skills and silky hands driving the net. He needs strength and confidence but you can see exactly what type of player you would expect him to be at his peak. Chytil has great speed, a very good shot and good hands. Around the league, you see it all the time. Guys like Andreas Athanasiou never become anything to write home about but they do flash the skills that got them to the show and into a top nine role regularly.

Also, guys like Hughes, when struggling in their rookie season and not producing, still show massive skill immediately - and it isn’t because of the extra minutes or the PP time. It was there the first shift, even strength, only 12 seconds of NHL experience under the belt. He didn’t need to be given 3 months worth of PP time to give himself mental permission to try being the best. The very first time he stepped on NHL ice he was ready to try carrying the puck, try taking an NHL defender one on one, try threading the needle, not hesitant to shoot. Bedard in his first preseason game literally refused to get off the ice in OT and literally ended the game with a beautiful backhand saucer pass. You should see some of the highlights from his first game - plays he didn’t score on but looked ridiculously good on. It’s not about comparing them as players necessarily, or their situations, it’s about that hunger to step on the ice and immediately WANT it and want to show what you’re capable of. Laf just looks like the most non-descript, totally pedestrian guy out there and he doesn’t show any personal initiative to take over a shift. You have a new coach and opportunity to make fresh impressions. It’s preseason. It’s the time to make a mistake going for the skill play. You can chalk it up to “getting my timing and getting confident with handling the puck - don’t worry coach, in a meaningful game that puck gets deep”. There’s no reason for him to come out and play neutered and for us to blame it on GG or DQ right now. He has every opportunity to come out and try to show something here in preseason and instead he just looks like happy Laffy from game 60 last year. Totally average.

That’s my biggest issue with him. Even if he does reach 60 points eventually, he won’t move the needle for us. He won’t become a play driver. He’s a complimentary piece, even if he’s in the 50+ point range. I hope he finds something to show us this year. I can’t see it.