Player Discussion Alexis Lafreniere

[JHS]

How many 1st overalls. Had a 90+ point player and another ~30 goalscorer that played the exact positions as them when drafted.

This was a unique situation. And one that is completely awful for the player.

playing with better players should have helped him. I don't know what to tell you

 

[Rongomania]

Gallant I think is to blame for a lot. He was forcing Laf into roles he just wasn't ready for - and that's ok, he's developing slowly and I'm expecting a solid year of growth from him.

Gallant should have found a way to give Kakko all of that extra PP & bump up time he gave Laf. Dismantling the KZK line was not a good move I believe. I cannot stop repeating, how many times Kakko drew a penalty and went to the bench dejected because he knew he deserved a spot on PP1.

New, well respected coach and a clean slate will go a long way here. Lavi has seen all these kids perform in the playoffs, he has this group of kids with the most upside since Philly. And I KNOW our kids are more talented and more accomplished than where that group of kids was when he was there.

 

[The Crypto Guy]

And he’s also the first 1oa to not go to a shitty team since a really long time.
His best comp in terms of time and growth is kessel.

Don’t confuse him with facts.

 

[JHS]

Don’t confuse him with facts.

Facts? This board rarely deals with that. Fact, 4 years in and the NHL views him as a 2.3 million dollar player

 

[Ruggs225]

playing with better players should have helped him. I don't know what to tell you

But hes not playing with those players. He plays woth Kakko and Chytil mostly.

U hate him we get it

 

[mas0764]

Talk about no proof, the above is complete conjecture.

I mean, it's kinda burying your head in the sand to insist otherwise. The league doesn't readily utilize offer sheets. It has nothing to do with the player.

The facts are he wasn’t offer sheeted despite the fact that the Rangers were very vulnerable to it and the assets going the other direction would’ve been minimal.

Those are facts, but those facts aren't relevant.

This speaks to the fact that the teams around the league, including much of this fan base, don’t think he’s taking that next step. I hope that’s not true but this is the evidence before us.

There are way better arguments to use to say that Laf isn't viewed as a breakout player league wide. The offer sheet situation just isn't one of them.

 

[mas0764]

Everything you wrote is conjecture as well.

Take off the "as well." My part isn't conjecture.

It's not conjecture to say the league habitually does not utilize offer sheets, even when there are better players who are clearly worth more money and teams with more cap space to sign them.

We can speculate as to the exact reason why, but there definitely is a "why." Because it's definitely a thing. Teams that should otherwise be targeting RFAs to offer sheet, to improve themselves or hamstring rivals, simply do not do it.

 

[JHS]

But hes not playing with those players. He plays woth Kakko and Chytil mostly.

U hate him we get it

Ni I don't hate him- I actually have no feelings about the guy. What I dislike is people who make excuses for the guy and blame and contort facts to protect him. I'm rooting for him to be great! The organization really needs him to be!

 

[mas0764]

How good is this team if Lafreniere takes it to another level?

I mean its really what the team needs

I mean, if he's a 50 point player with limited PP time?

You have to start feeling ok about that.

Do you believe, really, that if there was an offer sheet extended by someone that it wouldn’t have been reported? I don’t.

Actually, I very much believe that.

The NHL is very hush hush.

 

[Levitate]

Kakko "found his place" scoring exactly one point more than Lafreniere while being a year older... Lafreniere scored 19 even strength goals the year prior at 20 years old while Kakko scored 18 points total.

I get your point and agree somewhat with what you're saying but stop undercutting it by using stats that lack context...Kakko was injured for half the year when he scored 18 points. Omitting that just makes it look like you're trying to trick people

 

[mas0764]

What you are not understanding is that all of this salary cap nonsense doesn't change the fact that he wasn't offer sheeted which, by this fact alone, means that no one thought he was worth offer sheeting.

No, that does not mean that.

 

[OrlandK]

So much revisionist history here. The plan each of the past two seasons was to have Laf and KK play top 6. The Rangers were constructed that way and they were given every chance to play top 6 with PP time but failed. Of course with a team not trying to win they would have been given a longer leash, but they certainly had a good opportunity and failed. Like the last two seasons Laf & KK will again be given every opportunity and hopefully they are now ready. Our season depends on it. And I hope they both (especially Laf) did something in the offseason to address their very pedestrian skating ability. That, more than anything else, will keep them from reaching their presumed potential.

 

[mas0764]

I didnt realize that laf had more even strength goals than Zibby and only 5 behind Panarin, and thats in much less ice time.

If he had legit PP time he would be over 60 pts a year.

The place where he might fit best on the PP is actually the place where we have the best player in the NHL at. kreider’s spot. Laff has some good deflections, and has scored a good amount of greasy goals down low.

But yeah kreider is the best there and cant be moved. Really sucks for Laf althat he got drafted by NYR and is blocked everywhere he goes.

Well, the context against these stats is that

1) He hasn't proven to be a very effective PP player even for the time he's had, so it's not a given that with more PP time, his stats shoot up.

and

2) Yes he scored similarly to or better than guys like Zibanejad, Panarin and Kreider at even strength, but his shooting percentage was unsustainably high.

Still, if you are expecting his shooting percentage to come down then it's also reasonable to suggest that his on-ice play is still going to improve.

I don't think the book is written at age 21 with, suffice to say, less than a featured role. He could do more with what he's been given, but there's still time to grow into a better player, and sometimes you need more ice time to get there as well. We will see.

Again, I still think there is a possibility of a 70 point player in there even if he just becomes an average PP guy. That's if he never really takes off as the #1OA we thought we were getting. There's still a chance he's more than that too.

I posted this in the original Laf thread. I went back even further and he's literally the only top overall pick not to get a long term deal since Nail Yakupov. It's unreal!

Ok.

That's too bad.

Doesn't really mean anything though.

 

[Ruggs225]

So much revisionist history here. The plan each of the past two seasons was to have Laf and KK play top 6. The Rangers were constructed that way and they were given every chance to play top 6 with PP time but failed. Of course with a team not trying to win they would have been given a longer leash, but they certainly had a good opportunity and failed. Like the last two seasons Laf & KK will again be given every opportunity and hopefully they are now ready. Our season depends on it. And I hope they both (especially Laf) did something in the offseason to address their very pedestrian skating ability. That, more than anything else, will keep them from reaching their presumed potential.

They didnt fail. Gallant failed miserably in trying to integrate him or Kakko in the lineup. He always reverted back to the kid line and was quick to yank the kids.

Kakko actually looked really good playing with zib and kreider. But coach dumb dumb kept yanking him off the line.


Laf was barely given a chance in the top 6 and it was on his off wing. Or it was then Kreider playing his off wing. Both were stopped really quickly. Panarin and Kreider have the top 2 spots locked. If Laf is going to succeed on this team it has to be on his off wing or a coach has to have the balls to put kreider on third line.

He did have more of an opportunity in the PP for a while, but it was the bumper which again is not where he should be.

These two did not get close to “every opportunity”. Most #1’s get that becaus e there is noone blocking them and they arwnt playing for the cup. Rangers have both, and will not go throigh necessary growing pains and full opportunity bc it would take away from the cup run.

They have had opportunity yes, but they always had a short leash and were pulled at the first hint of struggle.

Having two of the worst coaches in the nhl did not help them either.

 

[OrlandK]

They didnt fail. Gallant failed miserably in trying to integrate him or Kakko in the lineup. He always reverted back to the kid line and was quick to yank the kids.

Kakko actually looked really good playing with zib and kreider. But coach dumb dumb kept yanking him off the line.


Laf was barely given a chance in the top 6 and it was on his off wing. Or it was then Kreider playing his off wing. Both were stopped really quickly. Panarin and Kreider have the top 2 spots locked. If Laf is going to succeed on this team it has to be on his off wing or a coach has to have the balls to put kreider on third line.

He did have more of an opportunity in the PP for a while, but it was the bumper which again is not where he should be.

These two did not get close to “every opportunity”. Most #1’s get that becaus e there is noone blocking them and they arwnt playing for the cup. Rangers have both, and will not go throigh necessary growing pains and full opportunity bc it would take away from the cup run.

They have had opportunity yes, but they always had a short leash and were pulled at the first hint of struggle.

Having two of the worst coaches in the nhl did not help them either.

Laf and KK always played better, free-er etc. on the kid's line. Less pressure; just a fact.
Kakko always "looks good" - ragging the puck, etc. Production has never matched.
Kreider has been Rangers best winger. We're trying to win; not just develop Laf and KK. Plus he can skate with Mika.
They got plenty of opportunity; just not as much as they would on a rebuild situation.
They struggled mightily. KK would often go 10 games with barely a point.
Saying they were the two worst coaches in the NHL speaks for itself. Not a reasoned thesis; just an attempt to support one's preconceived view.
Moreover the obvious skating deficiencies in an increasingly skating league is not addressed. IE - from the get go Hughes and Hischier's pace indicated they would develop into top tier players, even with the inevitable growing pains, and the advantage of playing on a team still developing.

​

 

[Hischier and Hughes]

Kakko "found his place" scoring exactly one point more than Lafreniere while being a year older... Lafreniere scored 19 even strength goals the year prior at 20 years old while Kakko scored 18 points total.

those 18 points were a higher ppg (and with injuries)

dont see how comparing a season of 43 games vs 79 games is fair to Kakko!

 

[haohmaru]

Actually, I very much believe that.

The NHL is very hush hush.

Why didn't he sign it?

No, that does not mean that.

Yes it does or someone would have. I realize the risks, the cap concerns, the costs, etc...

This is a 1OA who might've been re-signed for the lowest % cap hit in history among 1OA's and 2nd contracts.

Nobody thought he was worth the risk.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Why didn't he sign it?



Yes it does or someone would have. I realize the risks, the cap concerns, the costs, etc...

This is a 1OA who might've been re-signed for the lowest % cap hit in history among 1OA's and 2nd contracts.

Nobody thought he was worth the risk.

Did that apply to Miller too then?

Teams aren't going to OS any player the Rangers have especially while Slats is still kind of hanging in the balance. Old boys club and all plus the inevitable retaliation would be so much worse for them.

 

[haohmaru]

Did that apply to Miller too then?

Teams aren't going to OS any player the Rangers have especially while Slats is still kind of hanging in the balance. Old boys club and all plus the inevitable retaliation would be so much worse for them.

Miller signed for A.) Significantly more than Lafreniere and would've cost more to OS B.) Isn't a 1OA and C.) Sather has f***all to do with anything these days.

 

[LORDE]

I still don't understand what people wanted from the coaches.

Laf wasn't given PP time because when he WAS given it, he was even worse than he was at EV

Plays DIE on his stick. He's not great at winning board battles.

This idea that Gallant or any head coach would remove Krieder, or Zbad or Bread from the PP to force feed a MUCH worse player mins is ridiculous.

EVEN IF a coach did, I don't see what skills he has to suddenly become anywhere close to elite at anything just from playing up a man.

His skating is horrible, he doesn't have a killer shot, he doesn't have insane vision or passing ability, his IQ isn't off the charts.

What skill is he magically improving on? Some might even say "creating"?

I hope he really breaks out this season... I do. I just don't see a path for that.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Miller signed for A.) Significantly more than Lafreniere and would've cost more to OS B.) Isn't a 1OA and C.) Sather has f***all to do with anything these days.

1. Fair point
2. Irrelevant
3. You bet he does. The old boys club is a thing. You don't piss off the old guard.

 

[haohmaru]

1. Fair point
2. Irrelevant
3. You bet he does. The old boys club is a thing. You don't piss off the old guard.

1. Agreement
2. No, not even close. Carries a lot of weight.
3. Prove it. Drury is his own man if nothing else. Slats might be chiming in here and there with input, but he's irrelevant at this point.

 

[mas0764]

Yes it does or someone would have.

No, it doesn’t. Maybe a team wanted to sign him to more but had no cap space. You are speculating. What isn’t speculation, though, is that far better players than Lafreniere have been RFAs when other teams have far more cap space and almost none of them ever get offer sheets. The league just doesn’t do it and it’s not really debate.

I mean…. you could try, but you’d be wrong.

 

[GENESISPuck94]

Does it really even matter what the league thinks? Laf is 21.

For context, Adam Fox didn't even enter the NHL until he was this age. And, despite a very good rookie year, it wasn't until Fox's second year when DeAngelo got permanently benched and Fox got PP1 time that his Norris-level play truly started.

Barring the Conor McDavids and Sidney Crosby's of the world, I'm pretty sure most GMs and coaches will admit that they really don't know whether any prospect will become a star until they actually become a star.

And even then, it only comes when giving the player the opportunity to be a star and the player making the most of it.

Bottom line is this:

Laf has gotten some of those opportunities to become a star (but not as much as other 1st overalls) and hasn't yet made the most of them. That's where we stand right now. We don't know whether that will change. It's up to both the coaching staff and Laf himself to both step it up if any improvement will happen.

Can he still be a star? Yes. But is it likely at this point? Probably a bit less than a 50/50 shot in my opinion. But that doesn't mean other teams - especially those in rebuild mode - didn't want to risk a chance on the kid. It's more that offer sheets rarely happen.


No offense, but if you think Kakko is only "one point better" than Laf then you need your eyes checked. He's far more trustworthy and versatile than Laf at this point. And he's harder to play against. Kakko draws penalties, wins puck battles, and had some bad luck finishing chances. Laf, on the other hand, does none of those things but just finishes better.

I'd love to have more players like Kakko and less like Laf right now.

I checked my eyes, and read hockey reference. Yup, 1 point more. Unless math changed and 40 is more than one more of 39.

 

[MyLoveIsBlue]

I just hope his skating improves.