Player Discussion Alexis Lafrenière

[bhamill]

Was Jack Hughes force fed minutes as a rookie? I do not remember that being the case. I thought he played around 15 minutes per game. I remember he showed some flashy skills but looked overmatched physically at times so force feeding him minutes as a rookie could have ended badly and I do know he had some injuries (not sure which years).

I agree with you about the AHL. I actually would let anyone 19 or older play in the AHL.

In regards to Hughes, Laf, and KK I see 3 different players. Hughes is obviously the most skilled of the 3 by far. His skills make coaches and fans want to see more. I feel Hughes must work really hard. The reason I say that is he overcame a knee injury and seems to be as fast as ever. That takes a lot of work.

In Laf I haven't seen the skating or stickhandling yet. I believe he has a good snap/wrist shot that he takes too long to release. I think he has a very good backhand. The rest of his skills and probably his fitness need to be improved.

In KK I see a guy that has good ability to hold on to the puck. A guy that can use his body and that should improve more as he gets stronger. A guy with some skills one one one with goalies. A guy who has a good shot but needs to get it off sooner. His skating also needs to improve if he wants to reach the star level of player.


If you put aside stats and names and put both Laf and MacKinnon on the ice in practice jerseys what similarities in their skills do you see?

Hughes got 16 mins a game average in D+1. (Laf STILL hasn't averaged as high in a season). Top line, PP1. He scored 21 points, 9 on the PP. A statistically worse D+1 than Laf.
I'm not saying ANY two top pick players are the same. Or saying Laf would be scoring like Hughes. But I am saying that ALL of them develop more quickly and more successfully when put in a position to succeed. We did not do that with Laf or Kakko. Almost every other team HAS with their top picks.

Nathan MacKinnon takes his job serious. Lafrenière walks around like the class clown and cares more about stupid dances in the locker room than about getting better.

MacKinnon didn't get to where he is by solely relying on his talent, which is something Lafrenière is definitely guilty of.

Honestly, we have no idea what Laf does off season as far as working on his game. I SUSPECT, though, that you are right. Or have been to this point. It's actually PREFERABLE, because that leaves more room for improvement. Let's hope.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

It would be great if MacKinnon and Crosby would sit Laf down and tell him what it takes to be the best. The Rangers should see if they can pull some strings and have Laf start working out and practicing with those two during the summers.

Or, maybe Lafrenière can take some initiative here?

Ryder Korczak works out with Jordan Eberle every summer
Kaapo Kakko works out with Mikko Rantanen

Yeah, I have been very critical of the org over the last few years and they definitely dropped the ball significantly with a lot of young players but I always look at it from both sides. There's definitely room for improvement on the Rangers side of the Laf situation but my god, does this kid act entitled. They're not going to give it to you just because you are a 1st overall pick, dude.

Honestly, we have no idea what Laf does off season as far as working on his game. I SUSPECT, though, that you are right. Or have been to this point. It's actually PREFERABLE, because that leaves more room for improvement. Let's hope.

I've spoken to people close to him over the years and there are concerns about his dedication (or lack thereof). It's just not on the same level as other high-end picks. Yeah, the lack of "exposure" of his workouts plays into the overall theme here and how the fanbase sees it, and a player has to be aware of the optics. But as someone who closely follows the off-season, and know where and how most players work out, I can honestly say that Lafrenière is not the type of guy that takes the initiative to improve, unlike others.

He's 21 years old. These are the prime development years for NHLers. He's going to have a hard time catching up at a later age.

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

It would be great if MacKinnon and Crosby would sit Laf down and tell him what it takes to be the best. The Rangers should see if they can pull some strings and have Laf start working out and practicing with those two during the summers.

They don't even have to pull string with other teams when there's an internal option. Just spend the summer working out in Connecticut with Kreider. Other guys on the team do it, I think Miller did it last summer. There is no shortage of resources or options available to this kid but he needs to want to do it.

 

[NickyFotiu]

Hughes got 16 mins a game average in D+1. (Laf STILL hasn't averaged as high in a season). Top line, PP1. He scored 21 points, 9 on the PP. A statistically worse D+1 than Laf.
I'm not saying ANY two top pick players are the same. Or saying Laf would be scoring like Hughes. But I am saying that ALL of them develop more quickly and more successfully when put in a position to succeed. We did not do that with Laf or Kakko. Almost every other team HAS with their top picks.

I agree with that statement but what you view as a position to succeed may differ than mine. When I was in college over the winter break I got a phone call my college team coach. I can't even remember why I did not play the first months of the season after trying out for the team but the coach was telling me he needed me to play after the break. He asked me if I thought I could play with the fast center on the first line. I said yes I can thinking I'm fast. Well that game I started on the first line but I was not at that level. Soon after that game I was on the last line. Sometimes did not even play a shift in future games. It wasn't the coaches fault. I was not as good a skater and I was in bad shape.

If you want to say Laf would score some more points if he played more on the PP I will agree with you. If you want to tell me that playing Laf 2 more even strength minutes and 2 more minutes on the PP will make him a significantly better skater, shooter, and stickhandler I will disagree.

 

[PuckLuck3043]

Because there's no pressure on either side to get a deal done. That will change as we get closer to training camp.

Yes, but there was no pressure to get a deal done with Miller either and that got done rather quickly for what we thought he would get. It seems Laf is likely to get bridged for 2.5-2.6 mil. I wonder how far apart they are.

 

[IDvsEGO]

Yes, but there was no pressure to get a deal done with Miller either and that got done rather quickly for what we thought he would get. It seems Laf is likely to get bridged for 2.5-2.6 mil. I wonder how far apart they are.

Could be that the rangers also have a longer term offer on the table, and they can’t make it work unless they move someone.

 

[haohmaru]

I've spoken to people close to him over the years and there are concerns about his dedication (or lack thereof). It's just not on the same level as other high-end picks. Yeah, the lack of "exposure" of his workouts plays into the overall theme here and how the fanbase sees it, and a player has to be aware of the optics. But as someone who closely follows the off-season, and know where and how most players work out, I can honestly say that Lafrenière is not the type of guy that takes the initiative to improve, unlike others.

He's 21 years old. These are the prime development years for NHLers. He's going to have a hard time catching up at a later age.

This should be stickied to the beginning of this discussion and and anyone questioning why LaF is where he is or what minutes he’s getting or not getting should be directed to it.

Could be that the rangers also have a longer term offer on the table, and they can’t make it work unless they move someone.

If memory serves Kakko was reupped right around here - July 28th or something.

 

[GAGLine]

If memory serves Kakko was reupped right around here - July 28th or something.

Exactly, and lots of other non-arb RFAs have taken longer into the summer to sign. There are 16 other players in the exact same position who haven't signed yet.

It could be that Laf wants to sign for 1 year and Drury is only offering 2 years. It could be that they are still negotiating the salary amounts on a 2 year deal. Laf will want to maximize his QO amount coming out of the contract. And they aren't sitting in a room somewhere negotiating until they get it done. There could be days or even weeks between communications.

 

[HockeyBasedNYC]

Could be that the rangers also have a longer term offer on the table, and they can’t make it work unless they move someone.

The longer the better obviously. Cost certainty.

Would love a 4 or 5 year deal if they could make it happen. What would something like that look like? 3.5-4 per?

But highly doubt Laf's camp would go for that. They would probably bet on the kid improving his numbers and then come back again in one-two years to negotiate when the cap ceiling is higher and the Rangers (supposedly) will have more space.

I'd expect a longer term for Miller before Laf and we didnt see it happen - but every situation is different.

 

[Synergy27]

Just checking in to see what Fatso is up to. Perhaps he is scarfing poutine with fellow fat f*** Marty Brodeur somewhere in the Quebec hinterlands?

 

[bhamill]

I agree with that statement but what you view as a position to succeed may differ than mine. When I was in college over the winter break I got a phone call my college team coach. I can't even remember why I did not play the first months of the season after trying out for the team but the coach was telling me he needed me to play after the break. He asked me if I thought I could play with the fast center on the first line. I said yes I can thinking I'm fast. Well that game I started on the first line but I was not at that level. Soon after that game I was on the last line. Sometimes did not even play a shift in future games. It wasn't the coaches fault. I was not as good a skater and I was in bad shape.

If you want to say Laf would score some more points if he played more on the PP I will agree with you. If you want to tell me that playing Laf 2 more even strength minutes and 2 more minutes on the PP will make him a significantly better skater, shooter, and stickhandler I will disagree.

That's all fair, but he's already shown the high end flashes. It's not like the stickhandling and shooting isn't there, it's that he lacks confidence to use them. You know what gives confidence? Being used in important situations, being put in a position to succeed and knowing your coaches believe in you and won't yank you for mistakes, even if they are mistakes from trying things...

 

[NickyFotiu]

That's all fair, but he's already shown the high end flashes. It's not like the stickhandling and shooting isn't there, it's that he lacks confidence to use them. You know what gives confidence? Being used in important situations, being put in a position to succeed and knowing your coaches believe in you and won't yank you for mistakes, even if the are mistakes from trying things...

I haven't seen him yanked much at all. Way less than most young players. He played a solid amount of even strength minutes imo. He played more EV minutes than Kreider. You are right. I have seen flashes but very few. The stickhandling is okay although the puck is not glued to his stick as I would like. I have seen it bounce off his blade too much. Zibs had the same issue in his first year as a Ranger. The shooting is solid but not spectacular. Good snap but takes to long to get it off. Very good backhand. The backhand is possibly his best skill. The backhand I would give an "A" grade. The snapshot a "B" grade. The stickhandling a "C" grade. The skating a "C" grade. These things can improve. That is why his offseason's are so important. I do not want to beat a dead horse but the offseason is the time for Laf or any player to improve these things. Hopefully he is doing just that.

 

[bhamill]

I haven't seen him yanked much at all. Way less than most young players. He played a solid amount of even strength minutes imo. He played more EV minutes than Kreider. You are right. I have seen flashes but very few. The stickhandling is okay although the puck is not glued to his stick as I would like. I have seen it bounce off his blade too much. Zibs had the same issue in his first year as a Ranger. The shooting is solid but not spectacular. Good snap but takes to long to get it off. Very good backhand. The backhand is possibly his best skill. The backhand I would give an "A" grade. The snapshot a "B" grade. The stickhandling a "C" grade. The skating a "C" grade. These things can improve. That is why his offseason's are so important. I do not want to beat a dead horse but the offseason is the time for Laf or any player to improve these things. Hopefully he is doing just that.

Yanked from lines. I didn't mean benched. His stickhandling IMO is way above a C, he just doesn't use it effectively. He lacks confidence. You can't make the highlight moves he's made if you LACK the skill. But not using it makes it as if it doesn't exist. Gripping your stick a bit too tight will cause problems too, like pucks bouncing off your blade.
Oh, and I'm not saying he shouldn't be applying himself more off season, I'm saying there are several contributing factors, and IMO usage is a big one. And I'm saying that both he and Kakko being similarly disappointing so far is NOT a coincidence...

 

[NickyFotiu]

Yanked from lines. I didn't mean benched. His stickhandling IMO is way above a C, he just doesn't use it effectively. He lacks confidence. You can't make the highlight moves he's made if you LACK the skill. But not using it makes it as if it doesn't exist. Gripping your stick a bit too tight will cause problems too, like pucks bouncing off your blade.
Oh, and I'm not saying he shouldn't be applying himself more off season, I'm saying there are several contributing factors, and IMO usage is a big one. And I'm saying that both he and Kakko being similarly disappointing so far is NOT a coincidence...

I have not seen much of his stick handling outside of the 2 highlight goals on basically the same move. Those were great but thats 2 in 3 seasons. Granted I do not watch every game so I may have missed some. Hard to excel too much at the NHL level stick handling wise if you are not moving fast or at least somewhat shifty on your skates.

You are right gripping your stick too tight will lead to pucks bouncing off. He may be doing that but he seems pretty relaxed out there.

I do not really go along with the correlation equals causation. For example Laf and KK aside I believe Krav and Anderson would have had problems in every NHL city. That does not mean they can't break out eventually but it is up to them not the teams imo.

While we disagree about Laf's first 3 seasons I'm 1000% in support of him. I want him to show up and people in training camp say wow he is going to make a jump this season.

 

[bhamill]

I have not seen much of his stick handling outside of the 2 highlight goals on basically the same move. Those were great but thats 2 in 3 seasons. Granted I do not watch every game so I may have missed some. Hard to excel too much at the NHL level stick handling wise if you are not moving fast or at least somewhat shifty on your skates.

You are right gripping your stick too tight will lead to pucks bouncing off. He may be doing that but he seems pretty relaxed out there.

I do not really go along with the correlation equals causation. For example Laf and KK aside I believe Krav and Anderson would have had problems in every NHL city. That does not mean they can't break out eventually but it is up to them not the teams imo.

While we disagree about Laf's first 3 seasons I'm 1000% in support of him. I want him to show up and people in training camp say wow he is going to make a jump this season.

I don't think we even disagree very much. hahaha.
And you are right a couple of moves in a few seasons is not very much, but you need to possess the skill in order to do it even twice. He's just not SHOWING the skill. There's a difference there between HAVING the ability and using it.

 

[McRanger]

Put Matthews in the exact same spot as Laff and he'd produce way more. All this talk about PP usage, line mates, and 'playing the right way' is just a crutch people want to use. The cream always rises to the top.

People loved the kid line in the playoffs two seasons ago. No one complained about line mates and ice time.

He would produce more because he is and always has been a better player. Matthews is as close as you get to a generational player as you get without being one.

But he's not approaching the numbers we would expect of a #1 overall pick without a ton of 5v5 and 1st unit PP time. You can wave off TOI and role like its superstition but a player production is as much tied to them as its tied to talent. We've seen that in recent years with other teams former top draft picks like Strome and Zibanejad getting bigger roles here and breaking out. Fox is pretty much the definition of "cream" of the crop as it gets gets and he would not have the offensive production he's had or the Norris trophy if he was stuck behind some locked in offensive dynamo on the PP.

I'd like to think Matthews would be immune to typical Rangers prospects nonsense but frankly I would have thought that of Laf (and to a lesser degree Kakko) also. Laf and Kakko were both tailor made to insert into any teams top six (top prospects, NHL ready size, wingers) and we all saw what happened. Kakko spent his rookie year looking like he was drunk and Laf bounces around the lineup looking like he's just happy to be on the team.

 

[NickyFotiu]

I don't think we even disagree very much. hahaha.
And you are right a couple of moves in a few seasons is not very much, but you need to possess the skill in order to do it even twice. He's just not SHOWING the skill. There's a difference there between HAVING the ability and using it.

I agree our disagreements are minimal
I once saw Nigel Dawes undress a prime Chris Pronger. Sometimes until proven otherwise I look at things as outliers not the norm.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

I'm not a CBA expert but I think there's only so much a team can do in regards to offseason work. Someone here is probably better equipped to handle that but it's my understanding you can't force a player to do anything in the offseason. Which is why i say this is more on Laff than the team. You want to be mad he hasn't gotten PP time, fine I guess. But he was near the top of the list of players and 5x5 icetime this season.

You can't beat him with a whip no, but you can tell him the opportunities he's looking for are there if he accepts help from the organization in the offseason, i doubt any player would reject that

 

[Shesterkybomb]

Nathan MacKinnon takes his job serious. Lafrenière walks around like the class clown and cares more about stupid dances in the locker room than about getting better.

MacKinnon didn't get to where he is by solely relying on his talent, which is something Lafrenière is definitely guilty of.

The narrative that Laf is sitting around eating hot dogs has to stop, it's based on nothing and ridiculous

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

He would produce more because he is and always has been a better player. Matthews is as close as you get to a generational player as you get without being one.

But he's not approaching the numbers we would expect of a #1 overall pick without a ton of 5v5 and 1st unit PP time. You can wave off TOI and role like its superstition but a player production is as much tied to them as its tied to talent. We've seen that in recent years with other teams former top draft picks like Strome and Zibanejad getting bigger roles here and breaking out. Fox is pretty much the definition of "cream" of the crop as it gets gets and he would not have the offensive production he's had or the Norris trophy if he was stuck behind some locked in offensive dynamo on the PP.

I'd like to think Matthews would be immune to typical Rangers prospects nonsense but frankly I would have thought that of Laf (and to a lesser degree Kakko) also. Laf and Kakko were both tailor made to insert into any teams top six (top prospects, NHL ready size, wingers) and we all saw what happened. Kakko spent his rookie year looking like he was drunk and Laf bounces around the lineup looking like he's just happy to be on the team.

If you think it's just ice time that's keeping Laff from being all he can be, we'll just have to disagree. And Fox was gonna be a star regardless of who was in front of him. His talent is undeniable, Laff's not so much.

You can't beat him with a whip no, but you can tell him the opportunities he's looking for are there if he accepts help from the organization in the offseason, i doubt any player would reject that

You don't think the organization has sat him down at the end of every season and told him what they'd like him to work, where he needs to improve? Do you think they're holding resources back from the kid? These guys are pros, no one holds your hand. Go workout with Kreider in the off season, go work out with another NHL guy like Kakko does in the offseason. Amazing Kreiderman basically just said he knows people that know the kid and he doesn't take training seriously. What more do you want the Rangers to do? These excuses are mind numbing. I just happened to watch Jack Hughes highlights, if you think the difference between Laff and him is simply a matter of PP time or line mates, you're crazy

 

[bhamill]

The narrative that Laf is sitting around eating hot dogs has to stop, it's based on nothing and ridiculous

I just find it funny at this point.

 

[NoQuitInNewMexico]

NYC needs a poutinerie

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

I just find it funny at this point.

 

[McRanger]

This should be stickied to the beginning of this discussion and and anyone questioning why LaF is where he is or what minutes he’s getting or not getting should be directed to it.

I dont question how many minutes he gets but I do question the expectations people have for his production in the minutes he gets.

I mean honestly what would optimal production look like with 2nd-3rd line minutes and little powerplay time? 20 goals and 20 assists? Even if he got that people would still be losing their minds.

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

I just find it funny at this point.

You think it's all made up?