Player Discussion Alexis Lafrenière

[NickyFotiu]

He couldn’t play in the ahl until his 3rd! NHL season.

3rd season? I did not know that. Why his 3rd? I thought he could be sent down in his second season. He was 21 years old in October of his second season and a full year away from juniors.

Regardless my poor wording is leading away from my main point. What I was trying to get across is I would not have forced him in to roles he was not ready for. That can break a guys confidence for good.

 

[NickyFotiu]

It can be true and almost certainly is true that he's not on Hughes or Matthews level but the Rangers have also substantially depressed his production.

There is zero percent chance after seeing what happened with Andersson, Kravtsov, Kakko, and yes, even Chytil's slow burn, that they don't have a hand in all this. They do.

I understand your view but in naming those players you are partially arguing correlation equals causation. Where did Krav and Anderson play well? Even Tochet spoke out about Kravs lack of effort/conditioning. Anderson is now on his 3rd team and never looked like a great player from the night he was drafted.

In terms of Chytil on draft night they spoke of him being a longer term project.

In terms of KK we will have to wait and see. I never viewed him as a huge scorer at the time we drafted him so I'm not sure what fair expectations are for him. He was basically a 20-20 guy last season at 21. What did you expect of KK by age 21?

 

[mas0764]

I'm saying correlation is too strong not to have a related cause.

And we all expected Kakko to be an instant stud. Maybe not a 99 point player like Hughes, and I was never one of the people actually saying I was "glad" that the Rangers got the second overall pick because Kakko would be better than Hughes cause he was bigger and stronger.... but I certainly thought that Kakko would be in the conversation with Hughes.

I think Hughes has been better than expected and Kakko significantly worse. By this time I probably would have expected a 70-80 point player already.

 

[NickyFotiu]

I'm saying correlation is too strong not to have a related cause.

And we all expected Kakko to be an instant stud. Maybe not a 99 point player like Hughes, and I was never one of the people actually saying I was "glad" that the Rangers got the second overall pick because Kakko would be better than Hughes cause he was bigger and stronger.... but I certainly thought that Kakko would be in the conversation with Hughes.

I think Hughes has been better than expected and Kakko significantly worse. By this time I probably would have expected a 70-80 point player already.

Hughes has been a lot better than I expected. I saw the impressive skating, stickhandling and shooting skills in Hughes but body wise I did not think he would be strong enough this early to show those skills so much. He is much better than I expected at this age especially after overcoming injuries.

In KK I did not know what to expect. I saw a strong guy but I did not see the type of scoring skills (or scoring history) where I would expect him to go before Hughes. I had hoped KK would be a 30 goal scorer but never dreamed he would be an 80 point scorer. Definitely not by age 21.

Let me ask this question. If you expected KK to be a 70-80 point scorer by age 21 what do you feel his peak scoring season should be?

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

3rd season? I did not know that. Why his 3rd? I thought he could be sent down in his second season. He was 21 years old in October of his second season and a full year away from juniors.

Regardless my poor wording is leading away from my main point. What I was trying to get across is I would not have forced him in to roles he was not ready for. That can break a guys confidence for good.

Lafrenière was AHL eligible in his 2nd ELC year, because he was an early birthday (Sep 16th - Dec 31st)

Players who are drafted out of major juniors (QMJHL, OHL, WHL) are AHL eligible if they:

- Are 20 years old on Dec 31st of that season, OR
- Have completed 4 full seasons of major junior hockey, OR
- Were released by their major junior team, OR
- Were playing in major juniors on loan (i.e. Rasmus Sandin, Filip Zadina)

 

[NickyFotiu]

Lafrenière was AHL eligible in his 2nd ELC year, because he was an early birthday (Sep 16th - Dec 31st)

Players who are drafted out of major juniors (QMJHL, OHL, WHL) are AHL eligible if they:

- Are 20 years old on Dec 31st of that season, OR
- Have completed 4 full seasons of major junior hockey, OR
- Were released by their major junior team, OR
- Were playing in major juniors on loan (i.e. Rasmus Sandin, Filip Zadina)

I kind of knew those rules but I did not know how they worked exactly. Thanks for educating me.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

I kind of knew those rules but I did not know how they worked exactly. Thanks for educating me.

I should just do this for a living.

 

[Leonardo87]

I kind of knew those rules but I did not know how they worked exactly. Thanks for educating me.

This is why I nominated him for most knowledgeable poster.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

I didn't say you did. But this notion that the only thing holding Laff back is better linemates or PP1 time is getting stale. Play better, get more opportunity.

Its not just one player is the problem. The last higher end forward we actually drafted and developed was Kreider. Thats a long time between players, and while Lafreniere has to be more assertive, stronger and quicker, there's an obvious issue with this teams abilities to drag those qualities out of its draft picks. It needs to be fixed now, we have some good young players in Laf, Kakko, Chytil, Othmann, Sykora, Perrault etc that we need to be big time players, whatever the issue is it can't go on anymore, its been going on for decades here and its the biggest reason this team cant get over the hump.

 

[NickyFotiu]

I should just do this for a living.

LOL who would Krav hire to do his PR? (joke)

This is why I nominated him for most knowledgeable poster.

You are forgiven lol.

 

[PuckLuck3043]

It's almost August. Any ideas why no agreement yet?

 

[mas0764]

Hughes has been a lot better than I expected. I saw the impressive skating, stickhandling and shooting skills in Hughes but body wise I did not think he would be strong enough this early to show those skills so much. He is much better than I expected at this age especially after overcoming injuries.

In KK I did not know what to expect. I saw a strong guy but I did not see the type of scoring skills (or scoring history) where I would expect him to go before Hughes. I had hoped KK would be a 30 goal scorer but never dreamed he would be an 80 point scorer. Definitely not by age 21.

Let me ask this question. If you expected KK to be a 70-80 point scorer by age 21 what do you feel his peak scoring season should be?

Kakko and Hughes were ranked nearly evenly by the scouts, with Hughes getting a clear but small advantage. I would say Rantanen and Barkov are comps we heard a lot for Kakko in terms of at least quality/height of production.

Barkov was 0.5 ppg as a 19 year old, and 0.89 ppg as a 20 year old. Rantanen was 0.5 as a 20 year old, 1.04 as a 21 year old.

Kakko was 0.49 last year as a 21 year old. He was a year behind Rantanen in achieving the half point per game mark, two years behind Barkov.

Let's hope in the next year or two he jumps up to 0.9 ppg at least. I would have expected him to be showing more than 0.5 at 21 at this point.

I would hope Kakko's peaks are eventually what those players peaks look like - 1.0-1.3 ppg, somewhere in there. A handful of times.

Ultimately I hope the same for Lafreniere.

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

Its not just one player is the problem. The last higher end forward we actually drafted and developed was Kreider. Thats a long time between players, and while Lafreniere has to be more assertive, stronger and quicker, there's an obvious issue with this teams abilities to drag those qualities out of its draft picks. It needs to be fixed now, we have some good young players in Laf, Kakko, Chytil, Othmann, Sykora, Perrault etc that we need to be big time players, whatever the issue is it can't go on anymore, its been going on for decades here and its the biggest reason this team cant get over the hump.

I don't know how you drag stronger and quicker out of a player. It's up to them to put the work in to get there. Laff and Kakko were/are/have been given every opportunity to make an impact outside of the PP. You see Kakko put the work in the offseason, you see how much he's changed physicaly since he's been drafter. Can you say the same about Laff? Just my opinion but Laff hasn't done nearly enough to force any of the three coaches hands to play him more. I still think he'll turn out to be a pretty good player, how good is up to him. But this constant whining about ice time and line mates is misguided. Be mad at the player not the organization.

 

[IDvsEGO]

Its not just one player is the problem. The last higher end forward we actually drafted and developed was Kreider. Thats a long time between players, and while Lafreniere has to be more assertive, stronger and quicker, there's an obvious issue with this teams abilities to drag those qualities out of its draft picks. It needs to be fixed now, we have some good young players in Laf, Kakko, Chytil, Othmann, Sykora, Perrault etc that we need to be big time players, whatever the issue is it can't go on anymore, its been going on for decades here and its the biggest reason this team cant get over the hump.

Buch and Chytil?

 

[bhamill]

I think he played well enough to stay in the NHL. I was saying I would send him down (be it the AHL in his second season or juniors after 9 games as a rookie) before I would force feed him minutes he wasn't ready for. Fortunately those were not the only 2 choices. He played well enough to stay in the NHL but not well enough to be force fed minutes. Forcing a guy in to a role he is not ready for is one of the quickest ways to break a guy. Using the word start was bad wording on my part. I didn't literally mean start. I just meant Id rather start by building a guy up than by throwing him in a deep end before he knew how to swim.

I get what you are saying, but then Jack Hughes did not play well enough in his D+1 to be force fed minutes either... MOST top picks, Mathews being an outlier, do not "earn" or "deserve," on merit, the minutes and responsibility they get right away. I don't think it is just coincidence that our 1OA and 2OA got different treatment, and lesser results, so far.
The CHL deal should allow a certain players to play AHL in their D+1. If that was the case I would have force fed Laf minutes there.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

Buch and Chytil?

Higher end is how i worded it but i guess that's ambiguous, i kinda meant someone you could count on getting high goal or point totals consistently. Buch 30 goals one year but he seems to have settled back into what he is likely a 25 goal scorer
Chytil hasn't gotten there yet.

 

[GAGLine]

It's almost August. Any ideas why no agreement yet?

Because there's no pressure on either side to get a deal done. That will change as we get closer to training camp.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

I don't know how you drag stronger and quicker out of a player. It's up to them to put the work in to get there. Laff and Kakko were/are/have been given every opportunity to make an impact outside of the PP. You see Kakko put the work in the offseason, you see how much he's changed physicaly since he's been drafter. Can you say the same about Laff? Just my opinion but Laff hasn't done nearly enough to force any of the three coaches hands to play him more. I still think he'll turn out to be a pretty good player, how good is up to him. But this constant whining about ice time and line mates is misguided. Be mad at the player not the organization.

You drag it out by creating an offseason plan and making sure they stick to it. These guys are kids when they get here, being 18 or 19 without a bank full of money is distraction enough let alone being a nhl player in NY, they need guidance and a plan. Kakko is a year older than Laf, he looked much the same as Laf his previous season. No matter what happens to Lafreniere here, there still is no excuse for our failings as a team that has a bad track record with developing young forwards. Think of how many high end players we've developed since 94, now go look at how many players we drafted, its pretty pathetic.

 

[Dominance]

Lafreniere in year 3: 13 goals and 35 points at even strength.

MacKinnon in year 3: 14 goals and 36 points at even strength.

MacKinnon is now the second best player in the league. f***ing play Lafreniere in the top-6 and PP1, you f***ing idiots, and Kakko too. Not for a week, not for a month, all season long.

You DO NOT develop such talents on the third line. This is not rocket science.

 

[NickyFotiu]

Kakko and Hughes were ranked nearly evenly by the scouts, with Hughes getting a clear but small advantage. I would say Rantanen and Barkov are comps we heard a lot for Kakko in terms of at least quality/height of production.

Barkov was 0.5 ppg as a 19 year old, and 0.89 ppg as a 20 year old. Rantanen was 0.5 as a 20 year old, 1.04 as a 21 year old.

Kakko was 0.49 last year as a 21 year old. He was a year behind Rantanen in achieving the half point per game mark, two years behind Barkov.

Let's hope in the next year or two he jumps up to 0.9 ppg at least. I would have expected him to be showing more than 0.5 at 21 at this point.

I would hope Kakko's peaks are eventually what those players peaks look like - 1.0-1.3 ppg, somewhere in there. A handful of times.

Ultimately I hope the same for Lafreniere.

I remember some in the media even asking if KK should be the #1 pick but I never saw that when looking at the guys skills. I know many guys are wrapped up in stats so I will ask just looking at KK what skills do you see that say he should be a 106 point player? I say 106 because you said your peak was 1.3ppg. Is it his Skating? Puck handling? Vision? Size? I'd love to say that KK's skills should produce everything you projected. Looking at his skills I'd be thrilled with a 35 goal 35 assist peak. I do hope your projections come true.

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

You drag it out by creating an offseason plan and making sure they stick to it. These guys are kids when they get here, being 18 or 19 without a bank full of money is distraction enough let alone being a nhl player in NY, they need guidance and a plan. Kakko is a year older than Laf, he looked much the same as Laf his previous season. No matter what happens to Lafreniere here, there still is no excuse for our failings as a team that has a bad track record with developing young forwards. Think of how many high end players we've developed since 94, now go look at how many players we drafted, its pretty pathetic.

I'm not a CBA expert but I think there's only so much a team can do in regards to offseason work. Someone here is probably better equipped to handle that but it's my understanding you can't force a player to do anything in the offseason. Which is why i say this is more on Laff than the team. You want to be mad he hasn't gotten PP time, fine I guess. But he was near the top of the list of players and 5x5 icetime this season.

 

[NickyFotiu]

I get what you are saying, but then Jack Hughes did not play well enough in his D+1 to be force fed minutes either... MOST top picks, Mathews being an outlier, do not "earn" or "deserve," on merit, the minutes and responsibility they get right away. I don't think it is just coincidence that our 1OA and 2OA got different treatment, and lesser results, so far.
The CHL deal should allow a certain players to play AHL in their D+1. If that was the case I would have force fed Laf minutes there.

Was Jack Hughes force fed minutes as a rookie? I do not remember that being the case. I thought he played around 15 minutes per game. I remember he showed some flashy skills but looked overmatched physically at times so force feeding him minutes as a rookie could have ended badly and I do know he had some injuries (not sure which years).

I agree with you about the AHL. I actually would let anyone 19 or older play in the AHL.

In regards to Hughes, Laf, and KK I see 3 different players. Hughes is obviously the most skilled of the 3 by far. His skills make coaches and fans want to see more. I feel Hughes must work really hard. The reason I say that is he overcame a knee injury and seems to be as fast as ever. That takes a lot of work.

In Laf I haven't seen the skating or stickhandling yet. I believe he has a good snap/wrist shot that he takes too long to release. I think he has a very good backhand. The rest of his skills and probably his fitness need to be improved.

In KK I see a guy that has good ability to hold on to the puck. A guy that can use his body and that should improve more as he gets stronger. A guy with some skills one one one with goalies. A guy who has a good shot but needs to get it off sooner. His skating also needs to improve if he wants to reach the star level of player.

Lafreniere in year 3: 13 goals and 35 points at even strength.

MacKinnon in year 3: 14 goals and 36 points at even strength.

MacKinnon is now the second best player in the league. f***ing play Lafreniere in the top-6 and PP1, you f***ing idiots, and Kakko too. Not for a week, not for a month, all season long.

You DO NOT develop such talents on the third line. This is not rocket science.

If you put aside stats and names and put both Laf and MacKinnon on the ice in practice jerseys what similarities in their skills do you see?

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

Lafreniere in year 3: 13 goals and 35 points at even strength.

MacKinnon in year 3: 14 goals and 36 points at even strength.

MacKinnon is now the second best player in the league. f***ing play Lafreniere in the top-6 and PP1, you f***ing idiots, and Kakko too. Not for a week, not for a month, all season long.

You DO NOT develop such talents on the third line. This is not rocket science.

Nathan MacKinnon takes his job serious. Lafrenière walks around like the class clown and cares more about stupid dances in the locker room than about getting better.

MacKinnon didn't get to where he is by solely relying on his talent, which is something Lafrenière is definitely guilty of.

 

[Dominance]

Nathan MacKinnon takes his job serious. Lafrenière walks around like the class clown and cares more about stupid dances in the locker room than about getting better.

MacKinnon didn't get to where he is by solely relying on his talent, which is something Lafrenière is definitely guilty of.

It would be great if MacKinnon and Crosby would sit Laf down and tell him what it takes to be the best. The Rangers should see if they can pull some strings and have Laf start working out and practicing with those two during the summers.

 

[NickyFotiu]

It would be great if MacKinnon and Crosby would sit Laf down and tell him what it takes to be the best. The Rangers should see if they can pull some strings and have Laf start working out and practicing with those two during the summers.

That would be awesome. Not that I expect Laf to take on Mac's diet but maybe he could learn something from his discipline.