Player Discussion Alexis Lafrenière

[McRanger]

Put Matthews on this team three years ago, give him the exact same ice-time and opportunities Laff has gotten and he'd still blow Laff's production out of the water.

If Matthews was drafted in 2020 they probably would have stuck him with Panarin and he would have exploded. Probably.

But if they stupidly decided they couldn't break up the vibes of Panarin/Strome and put Matthews on the 3rd line (for depth!) with no top unit PP time? Telling him to focus on "doing the little things" or "earning his place" or whatever the hell Quinn was preaching? Yeah I can't imagine he is putting up the type of numbers you would expect from a 1st OA pick of that caliber.

I mean even if Matthews managed to match his first 3 years Leafs 5v5 production (42 points in 82 games, 45 in 62, 47 in 68) on the Rangers (with fewer minutes, worse players, and in a system that has no concept of how transition works) his lack of real PP time would mean he was probably averaging points in the 40s or 50s.

And people would be watching Jack Hughes score 100 points while losing their damn minds.

And that is assuming not getting top ice time wouldn't affect his development (it would), not playing on the PP wouldn't hurt his 5v5 play (it would) playing with a bunch of streaky young players wouldn't effect his production (it would) playing on the worlds slowest team wouldn't affect his production (it would) etc. etc.

And Matthews was a significantly, significantly better prospect than Laf.

Like I have said before, you can't develop a top prospect differently and expect the same results. You want them to explode? Give them a lot of ice time, especially on the PP. You want them to put up middling production and have people lose their minds? Put them in the bottom 6 with little meaningful PP time and fill their heads with a bunch of bullshit about how to be a good depth player.

 

[NickyFotiu]

Put Matthews on this team three years ago, give him the exact same ice-time and opportunities Laff has gotten and he'd still blow Laff's production out of the water.

If you insist on posting reality and logic you will not be invited to the NYR board parties!

 

[NoQuitInNewMexico]

From the outside looking in, the "kid line" and things like certain guys getting no time on the first powerplay are extremely uncomfortable. It makes the team look so stratified.

But I definitely feel like there must have been reactions from the first sets of practices - from David Quinn, Artemi Panarin, assistant coaches, "alternate governor" Glen Sather, organization-wide, top to bottom, like them or not, that Auston Matthews did not walk through those doors in 2019 or in 2020.

 

[mas0764]

Again it’s not about whether Laf is a “bad” player( not even sure how to define that.). It’s about his production vs where he was picked. And furthermore, it’s about his skill set combined with his production for a first overall pick that raises concerns— and even more than that, it’s about his production, concerning skill set and lack of any really quality jump in his time in the league to become more noticeable in games that should have us all concerned.

My point is not to call him a bust, I’m not even sure he’s a “bad” player. What I can say beyond any doubt is for a first overall pick he’s done nothing in his first 3 seasons to show he can produce as a first overall should and has no obvious skill set that is superior to anyone else in the league. That’s a pretty awful combination for a first overall pick and should make every ranger fan concerned that he won’t amount to anything more than a comparable mid to late first round pick.

Are you shouting at the clouds?

Who is saying Lafreniere is a great first overall pick at this point?

 

[Profet]

Mathews scored twice in the first period and twice in the second period of his first game so it wasn't about how many minutes (17) he played imo. I believe he played mostly with Zach Hyman and William Nylander. All 4 goals were even strength. His scoring 4 goals in his first game was not about the Leafs developing him. I think you know that. Its great to have high hopes for our guys but sometimes we have to just give credit to a player like Mathews. He had a great first game because he is a great player not because of the Leafs developing him.

Some guys just grab the bull by the horns...



"How about that mom"

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

If Matthews was drafted in 2020 they probably would have stuck him with Panarin and he would have exploded. Probably.

But if they stupidly decided they couldn't break up the vibes of Panarin/Strome and put Matthews on the 3rd line (for depth!) with no top unit PP time? Telling him to focus on "doing the little things" or "earning his place" or whatever the hell Quinn was preaching? Yeah I can't imagine he is putting up the type of numbers you would expect from a 1st OA pick of that caliber.

I mean even if Matthews managed to match his first 3 years Leafs 5v5 production (42 points in 82 games, 45 in 62, 47 in 68) on the Rangers (with fewer minutes, worse players, and in a system that has no concept of how transition works) his lack of real PP time would mean he was probably averaging points in the 40s or 50s.

And people would be watching Jack Hughes score 100 points while losing their damn minds.

And that is assuming not getting top ice time wouldn't affect his development (it would), not playing on the PP wouldn't hurt his 5v5 play (it would) playing with a bunch of streaky young players wouldn't effect his production (it would) playing on the worlds slowest team wouldn't affect his production (it would) etc. etc.

And Matthews was a significantly, significantly better prospect than Laf.

Like I have said before, you can't develop a top prospect differently and expect the same results. You want them to explode? Give them a lot of ice time, especially on the PP. You want them to put up middling production and have people lose their minds? Put them in the bottom 6 with little meaningful PP time and fill their heads with a bunch of bullshit about how to be a good depth player.

Put Matthews in the exact same spot as Laff and he'd produce way more. All this talk about PP usage, line mates, and 'playing the right way' is just a crutch people want to use. The cream always rises to the top.

People loved the kid line in the playoffs two seasons ago. No one complained about line mates and ice time.

 

[TGWL]

If Matthews was drafted in 2020 they probably would have stuck him with Panarin and he would have exploded. Probably.

But if they stupidly decided they couldn't break up the vibes of Panarin/Strome and put Matthews on the 3rd line (for depth!) with no top unit PP time? Telling him to focus on "doing the little things" or "earning his place" or whatever the hell Quinn was preaching? Yeah I can't imagine he is putting up the type of numbers you would expect from a 1st OA pick of that caliber.

I mean even if Matthews managed to match his first 3 years Leafs 5v5 production (42 points in 82 games, 45 in 62, 47 in 68) on the Rangers (with fewer minutes, worse players, and in a system that has no concept of how transition works) his lack of real PP time would mean he was probably averaging points in the 40s or 50s.

It's not points. It's goals. Matthews is a straight up goal scorer. He has a better shot than anybody on this team, whether it's the deceptiveness or accuracy. Mixed that in with his puck protection and stick handling and he's finding success regardless if we had him and didn't break up Panarin/Strome.

 

[IDvsEGO]

Put Matthews in the exact same spot as Laff and he'd produce way more. All this talk about PP usage, line mates, and 'playing the right way' is just a crutch people want to use. The cream always rises to the top.

People loved the kid line in the playoffs two seasons ago. No one complained about line mates and ice time.

Are you kidding? The kid line was doing fantastic and was only getting 13 -15minutes a game and people were raging. They were looking great in terms of advance metrics.

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

Are you kidding? The kid line was doing fantastic and was only getting 13 -15minutes a game and people were raging. They were looking great in terms of advance metrics.

My point was, no one complained about his linemates when things were good. And honestly, I don't remember raging about ice time.

 

[haohmaru]

Some of the takes on a guy who is 21 years old are borderline comical.

That being said, this is an important year for him. I hope he takes a big step this year.

 

[NickyFotiu]

Some of the takes on a guy who is 21 years old are borderline comical.

That being said, this is an important year for him. I hope he takes a big step this year.

I'm 100% rooting for Laf and I'm patient with a 21 year old. I just do not like the implications that he would be another Hughes, Mathews, etc by now but our team ruined him. That is nonsense imo.

 

[JHS]

I'm 100% rooting for Laf and I'm patient with a 21 year old. I just do not like the implications that he would be another Hughes, Mathews, etc by now but our team ruined him. That is nonsense imo.

Yup and it’s an unprovable conclusion based solely on speculation which, as is usually the case, is the way arguments seems to often be constructed around here. The proof of what he is only matches his output and numbers as well as the eye test. Any other notion that he’s been “destroyed” by the organization is just excuse making. The vast majority of the time the reason an organization has the first overall is because they were terrible the year before— by definition not a great run organization. And still Laf is on pace to be the worst first overall pick in recent NHL history.

 

[NickyFotiu]

Yup and it’s an unprovable conclusion based solely on speculation which, as is usually the case, is the way arguments seems to often be constructed around here. The proof of what he is only matches his output and numbers as well as the eye test. Any other notion that he’s been “destroyed” by the organization is just excuse making. The vast majority of the time the reason an organization has the first overall is because they were terrible the year before— by definition not a great run organization. And still Laf is on pace to be the worst first overall pick in recent NHL history.

My dad always told me that some guys mature at different rates so Im staying patient with Laf. With that said staying patient is much different than believing anyone ruined Laf. Guys like Crosby, MacKinon, etc have huge work ethics. Id be happy just to see more of that in Laf. I firmly believe if he skated 4 hours a day 5 days a week this off season he would not only improve his skating but he would get in top shape. Is he doing that or enjoying his time off? I can't say. What Laf does in his career will ultimately come down to Laf. Im praying we see improvement in his skills soon. Im not worried about the stats good or bad. Just show me better skating, better stamina, and a harder shot.

 

[Synergy27]

My dad always told me that some guys mature at different rates so Im staying patient with Laf. With that said staying patient is much different than believing anyone ruined Laf. Guys like Crosby, MacKinon, etc have huge work ethics. Id be happy just to see more of that in Laf. I firmly believe if he skated 4 hours a day 5 days a week this off season he would not only improve his skating but he would get in top shape. Is he doing that or enjoying his time off? I can't say. What Laf does in his career will ultimately come down to Laf. Im praying we see improvement in his skills soon. Im not worried about the stats good or bad. Just show me better skating, better stamina, and a harder shot.

This is what separates the greats from the rest. It’s unfortunately something you either have or you don’t.

 

[NickyFotiu]

This is what separates the greats from the rest. It’s unfortunately something you either have or you don’t.

I agree with your first line but that work ethic can come. Gary Roberts is a good example of a guy who was initially not in good shape to become a guy known for his workouts. I believe 95% of NYR posters would be thrilled to see some skill improvement. Offseason work is where that improvement usually comes not playing 2 minutes extra in games.

 

[JHS]

My dad always told me that some guys mature at different rates so Im staying patient with Laf. With that said staying patient is much different than believing anyone ruined Laf. Guys like Crosby, MacKinon, etc have huge work ethics. Id be happy just to see more of that in Laf. I firmly believe if he skated 4 hours a day 5 days a week this off season he would not only improve his skating but he would get in top shape. Is he doing that or enjoying his time off? I can't say. What Laf does in his career will ultimately come down to Laf. Im praying we see improvement in his skills soon. Im not worried about the stats good or bad. Just show me better skating, better stamina, and a harder shot.

This should be stapled to the first page of this thread and be required reading for everyone who participated in it. That’s how much I agree with what you wrote. Well written and, as far as I’m concerned spot on!

 

[bhamill]

Mathews scored twice in the first period and twice in the second period of his first game so it wasn't about how many minutes (17) he played imo. I believe he played mostly with Zach Hyman and William Nylander. All 4 goals were even strength. His scoring 4 goals in his first game was not about the Leafs developing him. I think you know that. It’s great to have high hopes for our guys but sometimes we have to just give credit to a player like Mathews. He had a great first game because he is a great player not because of the Leafs developing him.

Of course. My main point is that good things are more likely to happen when you put your top picks in a position to succeed.
Pretty wild that he played 17 minutes in his first NHL game though.

 

[bhamill]

I'm 100% rooting for Laf and I'm patient with a 21 year old. I just do not like the implications that he would be another Hughes, Mathews, etc by now but our team ruined him. That is nonsense imo.

Well in order to believe the team “ruined” him you’d have to believe this is all he will be. Now do I believe his development has been hampered? Do I believe he’d be a less disappointing player right now if he had been put more in a position to succeed? Absolutely. But I don’t think he’s been ruined, so I certainly don’t think this team ruined him.

 

[NickyFotiu]

This should be stapled to the first page of this thread and be required reading for everyone who participated in it. That’s how much I agree with what you wrote. Well written and, as far as I’m concerned spot on!

Thank you! Very nice!

 

[NickyFotiu]

Of course. My main point is that good things are more likely to happen when you put your top picks in a position to succeed.
Pretty wild that he played 17 minutes in his first NHL game though.

When you score 2 goals in each of the first two periods your coach wants to see more. Im surprised he didn't play more..

 

[NickyFotiu]

Well in order to believe the team “ruined” him you’d have to believe this is all he will be. Now do I believe his development has been hampered? Do I believe he’d be a less disappointing player right now if he had been put more in a position to succeed? Absolutely. But I don’t think he’s been ruined, so I certainly don’t think this team ruined him.

The only thing I would consider doing differently would be having him start in the AHL. I think he has been given fairly consistent minutes without being force fed minutes which can do more harm than good. As I mentioned many times Im not looking at his stats. I don't judge him based on stats. Im looking for him to improve his weaknesses in his skills. If he works hard in the summer that improvement can show up very early. It won't take playing with xyz player or playing in the 17th minute. If he improves his skills we should be able to see it in training camp or early minutes of games without him needing to score a single point.

 

[IDvsEGO]

The only thing I would consider doing differently would be having him start in the AHL. I think he has been given fairly consistent minutes without being force fed minutes which can do more harm than good. As I mentioned many times Im not looking at his stats. I don't judge him based on stats. Im looking for him to improve his weaknesses in his skills. If he works hard in the summer that improvement can show up very early. It won't take playing with xyz player or playing in the 17th minute. If he improves his skills we should be able to see it in training camp or early minutes of games without him needing to score a single point.

You mean the thing that he couldn’t do?
He either had to go to the nhl or the Q his rookie year, that league he destroyed in his D-1.

 

[NickyFotiu]

You mean the thing that he couldn’t do?
He either had to go to the nhl or the Q his rookie year, that league he destroyed in his D-1.

I think he played well enough to stay in the NHL. I was saying I would send him down (be it the AHL in his second season or juniors after 9 games as a rookie) before I would force feed him minutes he wasn't ready for. Fortunately those were not the only 2 choices. He played well enough to stay in the NHL but not well enough to be force fed minutes. Forcing a guy in to a role he is not ready for is one of the quickest ways to break a guy. Using the word start was bad wording on my part. I didn't literally mean start. I just meant Id rather start by building a guy up than by throwing him in a deep end before he knew how to swim.

 

[IDvsEGO]

I think he played well enough to stay in the NHL. I was saying I would send him down (be it the AHL in his second season or juniors after 9 games as a rookie) before I would force feed him minutes he wasn't ready for. Fortunately those were not the only 2 choices. He played well enough to stay in the NHL but not well enough to be force fed minutes. Forcing a guy in to a role he is not ready for is one of the quickest ways to break a guy. Using the word start was bad wording on my part. I didn't literally mean start. I just meant Id rather start by building a guy up than by throwing him in a deep end before he knew how to swim.

He couldn’t play in the ahl until his 3rd! NHL season.

 

[mas0764]

I'm 100% rooting for Laf and I'm patient with a 21 year old. I just do not like the implications that he would be another Hughes, Mathews, etc by now but our team ruined him. That is nonsense imo.

It can be true and almost certainly is true that he's not on Hughes or Matthews level but the Rangers have also substantially depressed his production.

There is zero percent chance after seeing what happened with Andersson, Kravtsov, Kakko, and yes, even Chytil's slow burn, that they don't have a hand in all this. They do.