Player Discussion Alexis Lafrenière

[bhamill]

But you used his “incredible” even strength production to defend him but now I can’t use the same stats to say he’s horribly underperforming a first overall pick and producing like a late first rounder? I see how it is. The guys stat line also shows that he has 0 shots on goal in roughly half the games he played last season. That’s a real game breaker right there…. So invisible

what are you talking about? incredible? You even quote me saying he’s been disappointing. I just pointed out that saying he’s been performing like a typical mid to late 1st rounder was factually incorrect. I asked for examples. There aren’t any. Where did I mention even strength? AGAIN. He has disappointed as a consensus 1OA but that late first rounder thing is pure exaggeration. 17OA picks don‘t commonly score 19 goals in their D+2 or 40 points in their D+3. Sorry.

 

[mas0764]

52 when you started your argument. Nonetheless there is not a single team in the NHL with a 36 goal scorer on their 3rd line.

Again, stop line numbering.

 

[BobMarleyNYR]

Someone said Vesey is a bigger fast? Who isn't physical? And can't support the offense half as well? And not as, well, fast?

 

[MrAlmost]

Someone said Vesey is a bigger fast? Who isn't physical? And can't support the offense half as well? And not as, well, fast?

I said that, but in the Offseason thread.

Fast:
80GP 10G 19A +9 104HITS 24TKA 27GVA

Vesey:
81GP 11G 14A +13 98HITS 56TKA 29GVA

Fast has better advanced metrics, but that is cause he played on a team with a better structure in all 3 zones. I think we will see a better Rangers team in that regard this year too. From what I can see, the only difference between them is size and speed. Vesey bigger. Fast faster. Haha

 

[hackeyman]

If this board claims Laf, Chytil, and KK are all top 6 players than they already are playing with top 6 players. We cant say they are top 6 caliper players but then use linemates as a rationalization for a lack of production.

This kind of rational thinking is going to infuriate the board and you didn't even mention they they have the advantages of playing with "top 6" players but don't have to play against top 6.

 

[NickyFotiu]

This kind of rational thinking is going to infuriate the board and you didn't even mention they they have the advantages of playing with "top 6" players but don't have to play against top 6.

That is actually a very good point especially if going against lesser d pairings.

 

[BobMarleyNYR]

I said that, but in the Offseason thread.

Fast:
80GP 10G 19A +9 104HITS 24TKA 27GVA

Vesey:
81GP 11G 14A +13 98HITS 56TKA 29GVA

Fast has better advanced metrics, but that is cause he played on a team with a better structure in all 3 zones. I think we will see a better Rangers team in that regard this year too. From what I can see, the only difference between them is size and speed. Vesey bigger. Fast faster. Haha

Hm and twice the takeAways... astute point, and I like him, good forechecker, can't contain as well.

 

[UnSandvich]

This kind of rational thinking is going to infuriate the board and you didn't even mention they they have the advantages of playing with "top 6" players but don't have to play against top 6.

That is actually a very good point especially if going against lesser d pairings.

Y'all keep saying this but Gallant didn't line match at all.

 

[JHS]

I wasnt talking about any of that, i was talking about player development. They properly developed their stars, we stiffled ours and told them to get better defensively and dangled a powerplay carrot above their heads they were never gonna get with Kreider, Zib, Fox, Panarin etc on the team.
We aren't lucky at all, had they developed them properly we wouldn't be running out and signing guys like Trochek and constantly trying to find someone to play in the top 6. They'd be playing there, we would also have our picks to backfill behind then still and we'd probably have moved on from Goodrow and used his money and Trocheks money to make up the difference and if we needed more we'd find that too. No organization has forward player development this bad, nobody. Go through our drafts, its embarassing.

Try and follow the argument though. No one is saying the Rangers can develop talent well. The point is the Leafs fell apart because they tried to develop all the young guys and a lot of them are not melding correctly. And, because the young guys all want their money now, they can’t sign any depth players. What I meant about “luck” with Laf and Kappo is if they both made huge leaps they would now be waiting for their money and the team would have no depth.

See here’s the thing— you can’t develop young players and then try and pay them all at the same time. It’s impossible— which is why, and this is clearly an unproven hunch— I’m now convinced some of Laf’s poor development is because the organization saw how he was going to want his money this season and knew they would not be able to afford him. He’s also just not good but you used the Leafs to support how to develop young talent but completely omitted a huge aspect of that story.

 

[JHS]

See Chytil for an exact late first round pick from 2017 that is producing even better than Laf

Rasmus Sandin- 29th overall in 2018 basically same production as Laf last year

Rasmus Sandin Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Title | Hockey-Reference.com

Checkout the latest stats of Rasmus Sandin. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, trade, draft and more on Hockey-Reference.com

www.hockey-reference.com

Mathew Boldy- 12th overall in 2019– we would KILL to have Laf producing this well.

Matt Boldy Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Salary, Title | Hockey-Reference.com

Dawson Mercer- 18th overall in 2020– essentially the same production as Laf

Dawson Mercer Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Title | Hockey-Reference.com

Checkout the latest stats of Dawson Mercer. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, trade, draft and more on Hockey-Reference.com

www.hockey-reference.com

Seth Jarvis- 13th overall in 2020- essentially the same production as Laf.

Seth Jarvis Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Title | Hockey-Reference.com

Checkout the latest stats of Seth Jarvis. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, trade, draft and more on Hockey-Reference.com

www.hockey-reference.com

Soooooo seems like my assertion that he’s essentially producing like a mid to late first rounder is much supported by relevant facts. This took me less than 10 minutes to put together.

 

[PuckLuck3043]

See Chytil for an exact late first round pick from 2017 that is producing even better than Laf

Rasmus Sandin- 29th overall in 2018 basically same production as Laf last year

Rasmus Sandin Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Title | Hockey-Reference.com

Checkout the latest stats of Rasmus Sandin. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, trade, draft and more on Hockey-Reference.com

www.hockey-reference.com

Mathew Boldy- 12th overall in 2019– we would KILL to have Laf producing this well.

Matt Boldy Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Salary, Title | Hockey-Reference.com

Dawson Mercer- 18th overall in 2020– essentially the same production as Laf

Dawson Mercer Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Title | Hockey-Reference.com

Checkout the latest stats of Dawson Mercer. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, trade, draft and more on Hockey-Reference.com

www.hockey-reference.com

Seth Jarvis- 13th overall in 2020- essentially the same production as Laf.

Seth Jarvis Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Title | Hockey-Reference.com

Checkout the latest stats of Seth Jarvis. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, trade, draft and more on Hockey-Reference.com

www.hockey-reference.com

Soooooo seems like my assertion that he’s essentially producing like a mid to late first rounder is much supported by relevant facts. This took me less than 10 minutes to put together.

Yes, he is producing like a mid-late 1st rounder. Does that classify him as a bust? I don't think it does. He's still only 21 and just may be a 60-70 point guy in his prime which is still pretty good. That draft has so far been meh. Some good players but no real stars besides Stutzle and maybe Sanderson.

 

[JHS]

Yes, he is producing like a mid-late 1st rounder. Does that classify him as a bust? I don't think it does. He's still only 21 and just may be a 60-70 point guy in his prime which is still pretty good. That draft has so far been meh. Some good players but no real stars besides Stutzle and maybe Sanderson.

Being a bust is way to early to determine. I’ve always said “on their way to busting” when talking about Laf and Kappo- but the guy I responded to said my assertion that he’s producing like a mid to late first rounder was false also can’t just create that narrative either. For a first overall pick that was, at the time, described as a potentially game breaking talent, he’s producing far, far below where he should be— and as a result he should be happy with a 2.5 mil bridge deal. Outside of his draft status, he’s an infinitely replaceable player.

 

[IDvsEGO]

See Chytil for an exact late first round pick from 2017 that is producing even better than Laf

Rasmus Sandin- 29th overall in 2018 basically same production as Laf last year

Rasmus Sandin Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Title | Hockey-Reference.com

Checkout the latest stats of Rasmus Sandin. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, trade, draft and more on Hockey-Reference.com

www.hockey-reference.com

Mathew Boldy- 12th overall in 2019– we would KILL to have Laf producing this well.

Matt Boldy Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Salary, Title | Hockey-Reference.com

Dawson Mercer- 18th overall in 2020– essentially the same production as Laf

Dawson Mercer Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Title | Hockey-Reference.com

Checkout the latest stats of Dawson Mercer. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, trade, draft and more on Hockey-Reference.com

www.hockey-reference.com

Seth Jarvis- 13th overall in 2020- essentially the same production as Laf.

Seth Jarvis Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Title | Hockey-Reference.com

Checkout the latest stats of Seth Jarvis. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, trade, draft and more on Hockey-Reference.com

www.hockey-reference.com

Soooooo seems like my assertion that he’s essentially producing like a mid to late first rounder is much supported by relevant facts. This took me less than 10 minutes to put together.

Oh Hey Boldy, a guy I'd absolutely love laf to be producing like.
37 points at even strength last season.

I get the point that Laf is not producing near where he's expected to for a 1st overall.
But Laf isn't a bad player by any stretch at this point. 35 points at 5v5 with about 14 minutes of game time, isn't a bad number.

 

[RangersFan1994]

 

[NickyFotiu]

Y'all keep saying this but Gallant didn't line match at all.

You don't think other teams don't?

 

[JHS]

Oh Hey Boldy, a guy I'd absolutely love laf to be producing like.
37 points at even strength last season.

I get the point that Laf is not producing near where he's expected to for a 1st overall.
But Laf isn't a bad player by any stretch at this point. 35 points at 5v5 with about 14 minutes of game time, isn't a bad number.

Again it’s not about whether Laf is a “bad” player( not even sure how to define that.). It’s about his production vs where he was picked. And furthermore, it’s about his skill set combined with his production for a first overall pick that raises concerns— and even more than that, it’s about his production, concerning skill set and lack of any really quality jump in his time in the league to become more noticeable in games that should have us all concerned.

My point is not to call him a bust, I’m not even sure he’s a “bad” player. What I can say beyond any doubt is for a first overall pick he’s done nothing in his first 3 seasons to show he can produce as a first overall should and has no obvious skill set that is superior to anyone else in the league. That’s a pretty awful combination for a first overall pick and should make every ranger fan concerned that he won’t amount to anything more than a comparable mid to late first round pick.

 

[UnSandvich]

You don't think other teams don't?

Truth told, they might, they might not. But if you have a line of 3 kids out for the other team, wouldn't it make sense as say Brind'Amour to put your top guys on and try to take advantage of that matchup?

 

[NickyFotiu]

Truth told, they might, they might not. But if you have a line of 3 kids out for the other team, wouldn't it make sense as say Brind'Amour to put your top guys on and try to take advantage of that matchup?

Depends on your point of view but more often than not you would want your best shutdown defensive pairing vs a top line or a top scoring player. We wouldn't want to see our 3rd pairing vs guys like McDavid or Hughes right?

 

[Shesterkybomb]

Try and follow the argument though. No one is saying the Rangers can develop talent well. The point is the Leafs fell apart because they tried to develop all the young guys and a lot of them are not melding correctly. And, because the young guys all want their money now, they can’t sign any depth players. What I meant about “luck” with Laf and Kappo is if they both made huge leaps they would now be waiting for their money and the team would have no depth.

See here’s the thing— you can’t develop young players and then try and pay them all at the same time. It’s impossible— which is why, and this is clearly an unproven hunch— I’m now convinced some of Laf’s poor development is because the organization saw how he was going to want his money this season and knew they would not be able to afford him. He’s also just not good but you used the Leafs to support how to develop young talent but completely omitted a huge aspect of that story.

Try and follow the argument though. No one is saying the Rangers can develop talent well. The point is the Leafs fell apart because they tried to develop all the young guys and a lot of them are not melding correctly. And, because the young guys all want their money now, they can’t sign any depth players. What I meant about “luck” with Laf and Kappo is if they both made huge leaps they would now be waiting for their money and the team would have no depth.

See here’s the thing— you can’t develop young players and then try and pay them all at the same time. It’s impossible— which is why, and this is clearly an unproven hunch— I’m now convinced some of Laf’s poor development is because the organization saw how he was going to want his money this season and knew they would not be able to afford him. He’s also just not good but you used the Leafs to support how to develop young talent but completely omitted a huge aspect of that story.

You changed the discussion i was having. Not sure why i have to follow. The leafs developed their players, we didn't, thats kind of the end of it, we aren't lucky, if we were the players would be developed like 2 years ago and we'd have won a cup. If the leafs had Zib, Kreider, Lundqvist/Shesterkin ,Panarin etc in place when those guys came up theyd have won by now, just like we should have. Our best window was the last two years but we needed to have those young kids developed, it should have been priority number one, like it was in Toronto. The fact is we are cap stuck already before they even get paid.

 

[JHS]

You changed the discussion i was having. Not sure why i have to follow. The leafs developed their players, we didn't, thats kind of the end of it, we aren't lucky, if we were the players would be developed like 2 years ago and we'd have won a cup. If the leafs had Zib, Kreider, Lundqvist/Shesterkin ,Panarin etc in place when those guys came up theyd have won by now, just like we should have.

But you are missing the point. You can’t have top guys and a top 6 filled with proven veterans all at the same time in this day and age. That’s why the leafs have fallen apart— they can’t make it work with the cap.

You seem to think that developing young guys and then keeping them at their entry level contracts is somehow doable— it’s not. That’s why the Rangers are lucky because they get to still prey that Laf will develop into something under his bridge deal with the depth forwards and top 6 filled with proven vets. That’s my whole point of why they are lucky.

The rest of your post about guaranteed hypotheticals about what would happen if the rangers developed players like the leafs did is impossible to even discus because it’s based on nothing.

 

[NickyFotiu]

Auston Mathews scored 4 goals in his first ever NHL game. Those Leafs must be really good at developing.

 

[UnSandvich]

Depends on your point of view but more often than not you would want your best shutdown defensive pairing vs a top line or a top scoring player. We wouldn't want to see our 3rd pairing vs guys like McDavid or Hughes right?

Maybe, maybe not. But on the other hand, guys who can do both like McAvoy, Heiskanen, or Makar?

 

[NickyFotiu]

Maybe, maybe not. But on the other hand, guys who can do both like McAvoy, Heiskanen, or Makar?

Depends on the situation but normally if a team is trying to shut down a line its either the top line or a line with a top scorer. There are no absolutes but rarely would a team game plan about shutting a Tyler Motte led line down.

 

[PuckLuck3043]

Being a bust is way to early to determine. I’ve always said “on their way to busting” when talking about Laf and Kappo- but the guy I responded to said my assertion that he’s producing like a mid to late first rounder was false also can’t just create that narrative either. For a first overall pick that was, at the time, described as a potentially game breaking talent, he’s producing far, far below where he should be— and as a result he should be happy with a 2.5 mil bridge deal. Outside of his draft status, he’s an infinitely replaceable player.

Yes, his overall production has been disappointing and I'm sure he signs in the 2.5 mil range. I refuse to give up on a 21yo 1OA pick.

 

[will1066]

Yes, his overall production has been disappointing and I'm sure he signs in the 2.5 mil range. I refuse to give up on a 21yo 1OA pick.

Laf thanks you for not giving up