Player Discussion Alexis Lafrenière

[TopShelfSnipes]

It occurs to me that 2-way 2nd line forward Kakko may surpass Sundstrom for the best NHL player on this list.

2nd liner (Sundstrom) - met expectations, was always more of a "two way" prospect than a scoring prospect. Had best stretch on Gretzky's wing in 1997.
3rd liner (Malhotra) - played 3 weeks on Messier's wing at the end of 00-01. Most productive stretch by far. Largely buried on 3rd/4th line. Lost almost all of 99-00 to healthy scratches.
Bust (Brendl) - never played for NYR. Traded for Lindros and Flyers used him as a depth option like Rangers probably would've. Busted.
Bust (Lundmark) - never saw time in the top 6, couldn't stay in the lineup. Best career stretch was 16 points in 27 games in 08-09 with Calgary.
Injury (Blackburn)
Backup (Montoya)
Bust (McIlrath) - was always a terrible pick.
Bust (Andersson) - also a weak pick. Drafted for "intangibles"...seriously? Medal toss was childish and should've redflagged him as trade bait sooner. Still, never played above 4th line.
Bust (Kravtsov) - mutual blame here. Burst onto the scene in camp and was mismanaged. Responded by pouting and never got his initial mojo back. Looks done now.
2nd liner (Kakko) - I still think he has first line potential if he can be more assertive physically and use his shot more.
?? (Laf) - I still think he has first line potential if he gets stronger, improves his skating, and shot, and is paired with players willing to go to the net. Very good at passing in traffic.

This is not directed to you, but I wanted to add on to your post (see above in red) to add a little more context.

Added to this above. Very few of the above actually got a chance to play in the top 6 for an extended time.

Ironically, the best Rangers first round forward pick didn't make the list (Kovalev) - because he went 15th. Kovalev literally embodies everything wrong with the Rangers' prospect development. Guy was an 80 point player pretty much everywhere he went except NYR until age 35, but the Rangers could never even get a 60 point season out of him.

There isn't a single elite offensive NHL player that was developed on the third line. Why the Rangers think they can do it this way in spite of decades of evidence to the contrary, is why this team sucks hot ass at developing scoring forwards.

I really think this issue dosen't extend to defense because D have to play since there's only 6 of them, and their ability to put up points is more dependent on the forwards they are on the ice with at a given time instead of their partner (and D inevitably end up playing with top forwards as 3 pairs rotate with 4 lines). Also, the Rangers are so busy signing FA forwards they don't have money to block their D prospects for very long. Look at Fox and Miller - they had to give them key roles early on - but it never works this way with the forward group.

Difficult to say what Laf and Kakko's ceiling will be, because not developing at a high rate clearly limits one's ceiling, but the talent is still there.

For once I'd love to see this team draft a top 10 forward and just let him play in the top 6. No matter how much he sucks. For 3 years. If he still sucks after 3 years, he's a bust. But I'm betting that unless it was an awful pick more than likely the player will have grown immensely instead. Rangers have never tried to develop a pick that way tho in my lifetime.

 

[Harbour Dog]

This is not directed to you, but I wanted to add on to your post (see above in red) to add a little more context.

Added to this above. Very few of the above actually got a chance to play in the top 6 for an extended time.

Ironically, the best Rangers first round forward pick didn't make the list (Kovalev) - because he went 15th. Kovalev literally embodies everything wrong with the Rangers' prospect development. Guy was an 80 point player pretty much everywhere he went except NYR until age 35, but the Rangers could never even get a 60 point season out of him.

There isn't a single elite offensive NHL player that was developed on the third line. Why the Rangers think they can do it this way in spite of decades of evidence to the contrary, is why this team sucks hot ass at developing scoring forwards.

I really think this issue dosen't extend to defense because D have to play since there's only 6 of them, and they're so busy signing FA forwards they don't have money to block their D prospects for very long. Look at Fox and Miller - they had to give them key roles early on - but it never works this way with the forward group.

Difficult to say what Laf and Kakko's ceiling will be, because not developing at a high rate clearly limits one's ceiling, but the talent is still there.

For once I'd love to see this team draft a top 10 forward and just let him play in the top 6. No matter how much he sucks. For 3 years. If he still sucks after 3 years, he's a bust. But I'm betting that unless it was an awful pick more than likely the player will have grown immensely instead. Rangers have never tried to develop a pick that way tho in my lifetime.

As long as big name free agents want to be in NYC, and guys are forcing trades here, this is just the way it's going to be. A GM for the Rangers has a very different franchise model put in front of him than a GM for maybe any other team.

Not that we can't win like this; we've had some competitive teams for sure. But there a lot of factors pushing our GMs to be impatient.

 

[TopShelfSnipes]

As long as big name free agents want to be in NYC, and guys are forcing trades here, this is just the way it's going to be. A GM for the Rangers has a very different franchise model put in front of him than a GM for maybe any other team.

Not that we can't win like this; we've had some competitive teams for sure. But there a lot of factors pushing our GMs to be impatient.

Be that as it may, winning in that way results in trying to catch lightning in a bottle like 1994, except now there's a salary cap.

It's hard to win a Cup like this when there are so many good teams, and this strategy results in, at best, a 2-3 year window every 8-10 years, then 5-7 years of salary cap/buyout recovery.

 

[Filthy Dangles]

Behold, in all its glory, the Rangers' top 10 picks since 1990.

1993 - Niklas Sundstrom (8)
1998 - Manny Malholtra (7)
1999 - Pavel Brendl (4)
1999 - Jamie Lundmark (9)
2001 - Dan Blackburn (10)
2004 - Al Montoya (6)
2010 - Dylan McIlrath (10)
2017 - Lias Andersson (7)
2018 - Vitali Kravtsov (9)
2019 - Kaapo Kakko (2)
2020 - Alexis Lafreniere (1)

That's actually insane

 

[CasusBelli]

Behold, in all its glory, the Rangers' top 10 picks since 1990.

1993 - Niklas Sundstrom (8)
1998 - Manny Malholtra (7)
1999 - Pavel Brendl (4)
1999 - Jamie Lundmark (9)
2001 - Dan Blackburn (10)
2004 - Al Montoya (6)
2010 - Dylan McIlrath (10)
2017 - Lias Andersson (7)
2018 - Vitali Kravtsov (9)
2019 - Kaapo Kakko (2)
2020 - Alexis Lafreniere (1)

But to paraphrase every socialist revolutionary: “this time will be different.”

 

[JHS]

That's actually insane

It’s almost impossible that a team could be so bad— like I don’t know how to compare other teams draft success but it’s hard to imagine essentially a 0% success rate for top 10 picks is somehow league average.

 

[mike14]

It’s almost impossible that a team could be so bad— like I don’t know how to compare other teams draft success but it’s hard to imagine essentially a 0% success rate for top 10 picks is somehow league average.

KK and Laf will be/already are 'successful' for top-10 picks (for 1 and 2 is a different story). So it's 4 NHLers from 11 tries.
11 teams have had more picks in the top 10 than us since '90, 2 the same and 16 less (excluding Vegas and Seattle), so we are sitting at about mid-table, noting that some with less than us haven't been around as long (ie Carolina has had 3 less picks in 7 less drafts).
STL (3) and Dallas (5) are really lagging...

The diffrence between us and a lot of teams mainly seems to be that most hit the big time at least once, where as we haven't yet (also that a lot of top-10 players make their name away from where they were drafted).

NYI (19), ANA (16) and CBJ (16) lead the way in terms of pick qty and outside of Kariya, Nash and Tavares there isn't anything special (although the new ANA crop has much promise), and in the case of CBJ pretty much everyone but Nash found more success elsewhere.

The Flames until Tkachuk were pretty mediocre (Stillman, Tkaczuk, Fata, Krahn, Nystrom, Phaneauf, Monahan, Bennett, Tkachuk). Same, same LA outside of Doughty (Sydor, Storr, Berg, Jokinen, Hickey, Doughty, SChenn, Turcotte, Byfield, Clarke).

It doesn't really look like there are trends as such except 1. don't draft and goalie in the top 10 and 2. Colardo are $$ with their top-10 picks (Duchene, Landeskog, MacKinnon, Rantanen, Jost, Makar, Byram)!

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

It’s almost impossible that a team could be so bad— like I don’t know how to compare other teams draft success but it’s hard to imagine essentially a 0% success rate for top 10 picks is somehow league average.

When your organizational philosophy is perpetually 20 years behind the times , that’s what you get. A Purge is in order.

 

[JHS]

When your organizational philosophy is perpetually 20 years behind the times , that’s what you get. A Purge is in order.

And when you have fourth liners who don’t have a clue how to be elite in charge of player development and essentially the same scouting department the entire time- yeah I see your point.

KK and Laf will be/already are 'successful' for top-10 picks (for 1 and 2 is a different story). So it's 4 NHLers from 11 tries.
11 teams have had more picks in the top 10 than us since '90, 2 the same and 16 less (excluding Vegas and Seattle), so we are sitting at about mid-table, noting that some with less than us haven't been around as long (ie Carolina has had 3 less picks in 7 less drafts).
STL (3) and Dallas (5) are really lagging...

The diffrence between us and a lot of teams mainly seems to be that most hit the big time at least once, where as we haven't yet (also that a lot of top-10 players make their name away from where they were drafted).

NYI (19), ANA (16) and CBJ (16) lead the way in terms of pick qty and outside of Kariya, Nash and Tavares there isn't anything special (although the new ANA crop has much promise), and in the case of CBJ pretty much everyone but Nash found more success elsewhere.

The Flames until Tkachuk were pretty mediocre (Stillman, Tkaczuk, Fata, Krahn, Nystrom, Phaneauf, Monahan, Bennett, Tkachuk). Same, same LA outside of Doughty (Sydor, Storr, Berg, Jokinen, Hickey, Doughty, SChenn, Turcotte, Byfield, Clarke).

It doesn't really look like there are trends as such except 1. don't draft and goalie in the top 10 and 2. Colardo are $$ with their top-10 picks (Duchene, Landeskog, MacKinnon, Rantanen, Jost, Makar, Byram)!

Appreciate this and I agree. It’s insane that this organization seems to have somehow picked the only first overall pick in the last 10 years who looks like he will be around a 50 point players max. Hope I’m wrong but yikes if I’m right.

 

[PANARIN BREAD FAN]

It’s almost impossible that a team could be so bad— like I don’t know how to compare other teams draft success but it’s hard to imagine essentially a 0% success rate for top 10 picks is somehow league average.

once again it's sather. dolan too. things could and would change if there was new ownership.

i looked up sather's history. he recognized the greatness of gretzky. he was also very fortunate to have a chief scout in barry fraser to round up a roster of players to form out a dynasty through the 80's drafts. together they drafted real well from 1979-83. after that their next good draft was 1993.

so i ask: was sather the brains behind all those draft picks or fraser for the oilers?

 

[Peltz]

The season before that, they put up 37% xGF against Pittsburgh and Pittsburgh led in 6/7 games (multi-goal lead in 4/7). Winning that series was a fluke.

True. They had one non-flukey playoff series win with this core - against Carolina in 7 games in 2022. And they were no slouch to be honest.

I am still holding out hope Lavi can give this group the tools to go to the next level though. They’ve been heavily out coached in their playoff losses the past 2 years.

 

[mike14]

A slightly weird disconnect is that if you look at our 1st round picks outside the top-10 since 1990, we see m to be able to find useful-to-good players very regularly, and while we'll never know with Cherepanov (RIP) there's only one clear miss (Bobby S) since the Staal draft coming out of the lock-out:
Stewart (13)
Kovalev (15)
Ferraro (24)
Cloutier (26)
Brown (22)
Cherneski (19)
Jessiman (12)
Staal (12)
Sanguinetti (21)
Cherepanov (17)
MDZ (20)
Kreider (19)
Miller (15)
Skjei (28)
Chytil (21)
Miller (22)
Lundkvist (28)
Schneider (19)
Othmann (16)
Pearrault (23)

Do we use a different philosophy as soon as we know we're picking in the top-10? Or, does having so much choice just befuddle the decision makers?

 

[haohmaru]

A slightly weird disconnect is that if you look at our 1st round picks outside the top-10 since 1990, we see m to be able to find useful-to-good players very regularly, and while we'll never know with Cherepanov (RIP) there's only one clear miss (Bobby S) since the Staal draft coming out of the lock-out:
Stewart (13)
Kovalev (15)
Ferraro (24)
Cloutier (26)
Brown (22)
Cherneski (19)
Jessiman (12)
Staal (12)
Sanguinetti (21)
Cherepanov (17)
MDZ (20)
Kreider (19)
Miller (15)
Skjei (28)
Chytil (21)
Miller (22)
Lundkvist (28)
Schneider (19)
Othmann (16)
Pearrault (23)

Do we use a different philosophy as soon as we know we're picking in the top-10? Or, does having so much choice just befuddle the decision makers?

Cherneski wasn't a miss?

Ah, missed the "coming out of the lockout" bit.

Yeah, later first rounders aren't the issue.

 

[Waterbuf]

Any word on a contract for LAf

 

[mike14]

Cherneski wasn't a miss?

Ah, missed the "coming out of the lockout" bit.

Yeah, later first rounders aren't the issue.

I'd struggle to label anyone who is injured so young and has to retire a 'miss'. In the same way I wouldn't label Blackburn a 'miss' in the top-10 group.
They are picks that didn't pan out, but it wasn't due to organizational failure.

 

[gump116]

And when you have fourth liners who don’t have a clue how to be elite in charge of player development and essentially the same scouting department the entire time- yeah I see your point.


Appreciate this and I agree. It’s insane that this organization seems to have somehow picked the only first overall pick in the last 10 years who looks like he will be around a 50 point players max. Hope I’m wrong but yikes if I’m right.

I think people aren’t giving Laf enough credit for what he’s done at this point. Last year was his third year in the league, but it was also only his third year post draft. He scored 39 points, 35 of them at even strength. If he had gotten typical power play time, he would’ve scored 50 points already: last year. If Othmann had a season like this next year in his d+3 year, we’d be planning a parade

 

[haohmaru]

I think people aren’t giving Laf enough credit for what he’s done at this point. Last year was his third year in the league, but it was also only his third year post draft. He scored 39 points, 35 of them at even strength. If he had gotten typical power play time, he would’ve scored 50 points already: last year. If Othmann had a season like this next year in his d+3 year, we’d be planning a parade

It’s the 1OA that’s causing the consternation. If he were picked where Othmann was picked nobody would care.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

Cherneski wasn't a miss?

Ah, missed the "coming out of the lockout" bit.

Yeah, later first rounders aren't the issue.

Hard to call a guy a miss who was looking like a sure-fire NHLer before his knee was shredded.

 

[haohmaru]

Hard to call a guy a miss who was looking like a sure-fire NHLer before his knee was shredded.

Not his fault but it’s another 1st rounder that never played an NHL game. It’s a miss in that sense. I feel bad for the guy.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

Not his fault but it’s another 1st rounder that never played an NHL game. It’s a miss in that sense. I feel bad for the guy.

Agreed, but we need to separate injuries I think from the true scouting misses.

Cherneski was all the fault of Muckler.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

As long as big name free agents want to be in NYC, and guys are forcing trades here, this is just the way it's going to be. A GM for the Rangers has a very different franchise model put in front of him than a GM for maybe any other team.

Not that we can't win like this; we've had some competitive teams for sure. But there a lot of factors pushing our GMs to be impatient.

Most other teams mix the vets and youth with success, why this team won't do it is beyond me. Teams like the Leafs actually went out and got older guys like Marleau and Thornton to play with their kids. There is absolutely no reason Zib, Kreider and Panarin can't take one kid each on their lines.

It’s the 1OA that’s causing the consternation. If he were picked where Othmann was picked nobody would care.

He's never gonna get higher point totals with no pp time. All our top point producers would be nothing without the pp.

 

[haohmaru]

Most other teams mix the vets and youth with success, why this team won't do it is beyond me. Teams like the Leafs actually went out and got older guys like Marleau and Thornton to play with their kids. There is absolutely no reason Zib, Kreider and Panarin can't take one kid each on their lines.



He's never gonna get higher point totals with no pp time. All our top point producers would be nothing without the pp.

Trocheck had 47 EV points.

I forget where I heard it, but I remember someone saying that Laf's PP production with the amount of time that he did get was among the worst in the league. Wish I could remember where I heard that stat.

 

[GAGLine]

Trocheck had 47 EV points.

I forget where I heard it, but I remember someone saying that Laf's PP production with the amount of time that he did get was among the worst in the league. Wish I could remember where I heard that stat.

That's not really fair. Most of that time came on PP2, which typically averaged about 30 seconds per PP and had to start in their own end. No one on that PP unit scored much.

 

[ReddestRum]

That's not really fair. Most of that time came on PP2, which typically averaged about 30 seconds per PP and had to start in their own end. No one on that PP unit scored much.

Laf still ranked 7th on the entire team right under the "big guns" for most PP time. It's fair.

[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD]Player[/TD]
[TD]Season[/TD]
[TD]PP TOI[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Artemi Panarin[/TD]

[TD]

20222023​

[/TD]

[TD]294:07[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Adam Fox[/TD]

[TD]

20222023​

[/TD]

[TD]292:46[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Mika Zibanejad[/TD]

[TD]

20222023​

[/TD]

[TD]286:42[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Chris Kreider[/TD]

[TD]

20222023​

[/TD]

[TD]272:00[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Vincent Trocheck[/TD]

[TD]

20222023​

[/TD]

[TD]242:50[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Alexis Lafrenière[/TD]

[TD]

20222023​

[/TD]

[TD]111:23[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Filip Chytil[/TD]

[TD]

20222023​

[/TD]

[TD]101:40[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jacob Trouba[/TD]

[TD]

20222023​

[/TD]

[TD]92:07[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Kaapo Kakko[/TD]

[TD]

20222023​

[/TD]

[TD]73:03[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Vladimir Tarasenko[/TD]

[TD]

20222023​

[/TD]

[TD]61:35[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Patrick Kane[/TD]

[TD]

20222023​

[/TD]

[TD]54:40[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]K'Andre Miller[/TD]

[TD]

20222023​

[/TD]

[TD]41:59[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Barclay Goodrow[/TD]

[TD]

20222023​

[/TD]

[TD]21:49[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Vitali Kravtsov[/TD]

[TD]

20222023​

[/TD]

[TD]15:56[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Zac Jones[/TD]

[TD]

20222023​

[/TD]

[TD]14:23[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Sammy Blais[/TD]

[TD]

20222023​

[/TD]

[TD]10:06[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jimmy Vesey[/TD]

[TD]

20222023​

[/TD]

[TD]6:13[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Braden Schneider[/TD]

[TD]

20222023​

[/TD]

[TD]4:16[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Ryan Lindgren[/TD]

[TD]

20222023​

[/TD]

[TD]1:46[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Niko Mikkola[/TD]

[TD]

20222023​

[/TD]

[TD]1:30[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Tyler Motte[/TD]

[TD]

20222023​

[/TD]

[TD]1:14[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Ben Harpur[/TD]

[TD]

20222023​

[/TD]

[TD]1:12[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Ryan Carpenter[/TD]

[TD]

20222023​

[/TD]

[TD]1:10[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jonny Brodzinski[/TD]

[TD]

20222023​

[/TD]

[TD]0:32[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Julien Gauthier[/TD]

[TD]

20222023​

[/TD]

[TD]0:27[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Dryden Hunt[/TD]

[TD]

20222023​

[/TD]

[TD]0:26[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jake Leschyshyn[/TD]

[TD]

20222023​

[/TD]

[TD]0:13[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Will Cuylle[/TD]

[TD]

20222023​

[/TD]

[TD]0:13[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Ryan Reaves[/TD]

[TD]

20222023​

[/TD]

[TD]0:00[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Libor Hajek[/TD]

[TD]

20222023​

[/TD]

[TD]0:00[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


The kids PP time since Laf joined the team:

Laf: 276.26
Fil: 199.44
KK: 189.25

From 2020 on, accounting for everyone that's played on this team since then, Laf is 6th on the team. The kids are underused on the PP as a whole, but Laf is the least underused and gets the most 'yell at cloud' posts for more PP time.

 

[haohmaru]

That's not really fair. Most of that time came on PP2, which typically averaged about 30 seconds per PP and had to start in their own end. No one on that PP unit scored much.

Oh, yeah, I'm not espousing it as something definitive at all. Tough to do much with :15 seconds of ice time and the 1st unit coming off while you're left retrieving the puck.