Player Discussion Alexis Lafrenière

[JHS]

I think people aren’t giving Laf enough credit for what he’s done at this point. Last year was his third year in the league, but it was also only his third year post draft. He scored 39 points, 35 of them at even strength. If he had gotten typical power play time, he would’ve scored 50 points already: last year. If Othmann had a season like this next year in his d+3 year, we’d be planning a parade

He’s a first overall puck producing like he’s a mid to late first round pick- not even close to good enough. He was supposed to be an incredible talent coming out of the draft and that’s simply not been true. He’s not even in the top 4 forwards on this team let alone league.

Most other teams mix the vets and youth with success, why this team won't do it is beyond me. Teams like the Leafs actually went out and got older guys like Marleau and Thornton to play with their kids. There is absolutely no reason Zib, Kreider and Panarin can't take one kid each on their lines.



He's never gonna get higher point totals with no pp time. All our top point producers would be nothing without the pp.

The leafs are a poor example to use as their organization is imploding again for like the 2nd time in 5 years. Also, Laf was tried with all these guys at various times and most often he barely lasted a game on those lines.

 

[FIRE DRURY]

 

[duhmetreE]

I think he's looking for Chipolte vouchers and the accountants are trying to figure out how much that would be.

 

[ReddestRum]

He's never gonna get higher point totals with no pp time. All our top point producers would be nothing without the pp.

It's not hard to know exactly what kind of player we have in Laf when we start wishing he'd go on the PP just to pad his point totals.

Nevermind that if you took legit stars off the PP they would still be 60-70 point players racking up those points against Top 3 opposition.

If Laf scored 65 points this year, and 15 of those points were on the PP as second assists, I BET this board would go crazy with "I told you so's. SUPERSTAR. BREAKING OUT."

 

[Harbour Dog]

It's not hard to know exactly what kind of player we have in Laf when we start wishing he'd go on the PP just to pad his point totals.

Nevermind that if you took legit stars off the PP they would still be 60-70 point players racking up those points against Top 3 opposition.

If Laf scored 65 points this year, and 15 of those points were on the PP as second assists, I BET this board would go crazy with "I told you so's. SUPERSTAR. BREAKING OUT."

There were three players this year that scored over 60 points at 5v5:

Mackinnon - 65
Karlsson - 64
Pastrnak - 61

e- Although reading your post again, maybe you are counting 4v4 and 3v3 time? In which case, we would have to play him there as well.

 

[ReddestRum]

There were three players this year that scored over 60 points at 5v5:

Mackinnon - 65
Karlsson - 64
Pastrnak - 61

e- Although reading your post again, maybe you are counting 4v4 and 3v3 time? In which case, we would have to play him there as well.

What I'm saying is that if you took away Jack Hughes' 31 PP points last season he'd still have 68 points period without the PP. 68 points against Top 3 opposition. EV is NOT created equal. Context absolutely matters.

When it comes to the high tiers these other young superstars are in, no one says that Hughes needs to be on the PP to pad his stats. You put Hughes on the PP because he belongs there, is an integral part of it, and isn't a pylon simply trying to get a touch for points.

 

[IDvsEGO]

What I'm saying is that if you took away Jack Hughes' 31 PP points last season he'd still have 68 points period without the PP. 68 points against Top 3 opposition. EV is NOT created equal. Context absolutely matters.

When it comes to the high tiers these other young superstars are in, no one says that Hughes needs to be on the PP to pad his stats. You put Hughes on the PP because he belongs there, is an integral part of it, and isn't a pylon simply trying to get a touch for points.

Except that Hughes hasn't "earned that" in the first 2 seasons, and yet Hughes lowest ice time season (his rookie) is still higher than Laf's.

Compare hughes to laf's in their first 3 years.

Hughes
61Gp - 7G + 14A = 21 points in 15:52 of total ice time
56GP - 11G + 20A = 31 points in 19:04 of total ice time
49GP - 26g + 30A = 56 points in 19:34 of total ice time ( 42 ES points)


Laf
56GP - 12G + 9A = 21 points in 13:53 of total ice time
79GP - 19G + 12A = 31points in 13:59 of total ice time
81GP - 16g + 23A = 39 poitns in 15:13 of total ice time ( 35 ES points)

Seriously, you want to compare laf and hughes the production isn't that far off, considering the lack of time he's gotten. You can argue Laf faces the weaker defenseman, but Laf is producing in minimal ice time.

 

[bhamill]

Laf still ranked 7th on the entire team right under the "big guns" for most PP time. It's fair.

[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD]Player[/TD]
[TD]Season[/TD]
[TD]PP TOI[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Artemi Panarin[/TD]

[TD]

20222023​

[/TD]

[TD]294:07[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Adam Fox[/TD]

[TD]

20222023​

[/TD]

[TD]292:46[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Mika Zibanejad[/TD]

[TD]

20222023​

[/TD]

[TD]286:42[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Chris Kreider[/TD]

[TD]

20222023​

[/TD]

[TD]272:00[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Vincent Trocheck[/TD]

[TD]

20222023​

[/TD]

[TD]242:50[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Alexis Lafrenière[/TD]

[TD]

20222023​

[/TD]

[TD]111:23[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Filip Chytil[/TD]

[TD]

20222023​

[/TD]

[TD]101:40[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jacob Trouba[/TD]

[TD]

20222023​

[/TD]

[TD]92:07[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Kaapo Kakko[/TD]

[TD]

20222023​

[/TD]

[TD]73:03[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Vladimir Tarasenko[/TD]

[TD]

20222023​

[/TD]

[TD]61:35[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Patrick Kane[/TD]

[TD]

20222023​

[/TD]

[TD]54:40[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]K'Andre Miller[/TD]

[TD]

20222023​

[/TD]

[TD]41:59[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Barclay Goodrow[/TD]

[TD]

20222023​

[/TD]

[TD]21:49[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Vitali Kravtsov[/TD]

[TD]

20222023​

[/TD]

[TD]15:56[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Zac Jones[/TD]

[TD]

20222023​

[/TD]

[TD]14:23[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Sammy Blais[/TD]

[TD]

20222023​

[/TD]

[TD]10:06[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jimmy Vesey[/TD]

[TD]

20222023​

[/TD]

[TD]6:13[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Braden Schneider[/TD]

[TD]

20222023​

[/TD]

[TD]4:16[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Ryan Lindgren[/TD]

[TD]

20222023​

[/TD]

[TD]1:46[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Niko Mikkola[/TD]

[TD]

20222023​

[/TD]

[TD]1:30[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Tyler Motte[/TD]

[TD]

20222023​

[/TD]

[TD]1:14[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Ben Harpur[/TD]

[TD]

20222023​

[/TD]

[TD]1:12[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Ryan Carpenter[/TD]

[TD]

20222023​

[/TD]

[TD]1:10[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jonny Brodzinski[/TD]

[TD]

20222023​

[/TD]

[TD]0:32[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Julien Gauthier[/TD]

[TD]

20222023​

[/TD]

[TD]0:27[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Dryden Hunt[/TD]

[TD]

20222023​

[/TD]

[TD]0:26[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jake Leschyshyn[/TD]

[TD]

20222023​

[/TD]

[TD]0:13[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Will Cuylle[/TD]

[TD]

20222023​

[/TD]

[TD]0:13[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Ryan Reaves[/TD]

[TD]

20222023​

[/TD]

[TD]0:00[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Libor Hajek[/TD]

[TD]

20222023​

[/TD]

[TD]0:00[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


The kids PP time since Laf joined the team:

Laf: 276.26
Fil: 199.44
KK: 189.25

From 2020 on, accounting for everyone that's played on this team since then, Laf is 6th on the team. The kids are underused on the PP as a whole, but Laf is the least underused and gets the most 'yell at cloud' posts for more PP time.

Oh come on. How often does a power play score within the first 30 seconds? Even with the pp1 unit on the ice that doesn’t happen much at all. Especially if it starts outside of the O zone. It’s disingenuous to compare overall time rather than look at the specifics. After zone entry and setup time you have 10 seconds to score if you’re lucky. Hahahaha.
To quote YOU just above “CONTEXT ABSOLUTELY MATTERS.”

 

[bhamill]

He’s a first overall puck producing like he’s a mid to late first round pick- not even close to good enough. He was supposed to be an incredible talent coming out of the draft and that’s simply not been true. He’s not even in the top 4 forwards on this team let alone league.


The leafs are a poor example to use as their organization is imploding again for like the 2nd time in 5 years. Also, Laf was tried with all these guys at various times and most often he barely lasted a game on those lines.

What mid to late round picks from his draft are producing at .5ppg? Which from prev drafts were doing that in their D+3? Hes absolutely underperformed for a 1OA, but this narrative is bad.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

He’s a first overall puck producing like he’s a mid to late first round pick- not even close to good enough. He was supposed to be an incredible talent coming out of the draft and that’s simply not been true. He’s not even in the top 4 forwards on this team let alone league.


The leafs are a poor example to use as their organization is imploding again for like the 2nd time in 5 years. Also, Laf was tried with all these guys at various times and most often he barely lasted a game on those lines.

The leafs young players have hit their potential so much that they are capped out because of it.

 

[jacko23]

When your organizational philosophy is perpetually 20 years behind the times , that’s what you get. A Purge is in order.

I would love to see a purge of everyone but a core. Laf, Kakko, Shesty, Fox, Miller and maybe one or two of Kreider, Zib, Trouba. Give those kids QUALITY minutes (out of necessity), and i bet theyd develop nicely (out of necessity).

And when you have fourth liners who don’t have a clue how to be elite in charge of player development and essentially the same scouting department the entire time- yeah I see your point.


Appreciate this and I agree. It’s insane that this organization seems to have somehow picked the only first overall pick in the last 10 years who looks like he will be around a 50 point players max. Hope I’m wrong but yikes if I’m right.

I dont think having 4th liners in charge of player development really has much to do wuth their development. They are more in an administrative type role. The actual development (or lack thereof) is on the coaches.

It works the other way, just how the greatest player to ever lace em up made for a terrible coach.

 

[hackeyman]

You mean a 36 goal scorer?

And yeah good teams have scoring depth across all their top 9, stop line numbering. If he'd stop being a baby he could suck it up and be Panarin's RW.

52 when you started your argument. Nonetheless there is not a single team in the NHL with a 36 goal scorer on their 3rd line.

 

[IDvsEGO]

I would love to see a purge of everyone but a core. Laf, Kakko, Shesty, Fox, Miller and maybe one or two of Kreider, Zib, Trouba. Give those kids QUALITY minutes (out of necessity), and i bet theyd develop nicely (out of necessity).

I dont think having 4th liners in charge of player development really has much to do wuth their development. They are more in an administrative type role. The actual development (or lack thereof) is on the coaches.

It works the other way, just how the greatest player to ever lace em up made for a terrible coach.

Very few uber skilled players are ever capable of "teaching". The grinders / 4th liners who made their way to the NHL by doing the physical stuff, those skills are teachable. But hands, vision, shot, those aren't teachable skills.

 

[Profet]

Very few uber skilled players are ever capable of "teaching". The grinders / 4th liners who made their way to the NHL by doing the physical stuff, those skills are teachable. But hands, vision, shot, those aren't teachable skills.

Counter point:

This org sure does a good job of unteaching those skills.

 

[Hischier and Hughes]

Except that Hughes hasn't "earned that" in the first 2 seasons, and yet Hughes lowest ice time season (his rookie) is still higher than Laf's.

Compare hughes to laf's in their first 3 years.

Hughes
61Gp - 7G + 14A = 21 points in 15:52 of total ice time
56GP - 11G + 20A = 31 points in 19:04 of total ice time
49GP - 26g + 30A = 56 points in 19:34 of total ice time ( 42 ES points)


Laf
56GP - 12G + 9A = 21 points in 13:53 of total ice time
79GP - 19G + 12A = 31points in 13:59 of total ice time
81GP - 16g + 23A = 39 poitns in 15:13 of total ice time ( 35 ES points)

Seriously, you want to compare laf and hughes the production isn't that far off, considering the lack of time he's gotten. You can argue Laf faces the weaker defenseman, but Laf is producing in minimal ice time.

For the love of God and all things holy

Please stop making the Ranger fanbase as a whole look stupid and woefully ignorant

'the production isnt far off' - are you Lafreniere's father or mother? Because if not theres no explanation you can give to back this claim up

No no, lets take it a step further - Lafreniere has outpaced MacKinnon in his last two seasons based on ice time; so surely hes set to score over 110 points in two seasons

And notice you dont read this fuxking garbage for Kakko - thats because hes an actually-useful player outside production

This garbage is why Rangers fans get a bad name when it comes to Lafreniere and why HFboards feels the need to dunk on them every chance they get; because some losers like you parrot bullshit like this

 

[Mandar]

For the love of God and all things holy

Please stop making the Ranger fanbase as a whole look stupid and woefully ignorant

'the production isnt far off' - are you Lafreniere's father or mother? Because if not theres no explanation you can give to back this claim up

No no, lets take it a step further - Lafreniere has outpaced MacKinnon in his last two seasons based on ice time; so surely hes set to score over 110 points in two seasons

And notice you dont read this fuxking garbage for Kakko - thats because hes an actually-useful player outside production

This garbage is why Rangers fans get a bad name when it comes to Lafreniere and why HFboards feels the need to dunk on them every chance they get; because some losers like you parrot bullshit like this

Mic dropped.

 

[LaffyTaffyNYR]

You can’t compare Hughes and Laf but NJ allowed Hughes to go through any growing pains and believed in him the Rangers haven’t

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

You can’t compare Hughes and Laf but NJ allowed Hughes to go through any growing pains and believed in him the Rangers haven’t

The Rangers only allow d-men to develop this way. Paying dividends with Key . But they’re slaves to high price veterans.

People like to say we managed to develop Zibanejad. You know how? Brassard and Stepan were traded and he had no one blocking him. It’s so obvious.

 

[SeanAveryTheGreatOne]

The Rangers only allow d-men to develop this way. Paying dividends with Key . But they’re slaves to high price veterans.

People like to say we managed to develop Zibanejad. You know how? Brassard and Stepan were traded and he had no one blocking him. It’s so obvious.

Key got worse last year, and it's probably from being Trouba's partner

 

[JHS]

What mid to late round picks from his draft are producing at .5ppg? Which from prev drafts were doing that in their D+3? Hes absolutely underperformed for a 1OA, but this narrative is bad.

But you used his “incredible” even strength production to defend him but now I can’t use the same stats to say he’s horribly underperforming a first overall pick and producing like a late first rounder? I see how it is. The guys stat line also shows that he has 0 shots on goal in roughly half the games he played last season. That’s a real game breaker right there…. So invisible

The leafs young players have hit their potential so much that they are capped out because of it.

But there organization is crumbling and Mathews( you know a legit first overall) has a lot to do with the entire cap and now crumble dynamics at work over there.

From a cap standpoint, the rangers are lucky both Laf and Kappo are on their way to busting because their cap would have been destroyed too if either actually was worth more than the pathetic bridge deals they both were forced to sign.

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

Key got worse last year, and it's probably from being Trouba's partner

Everyone got worse last year .

 

[IDvsEGO]

For the love of God and all things holy

Please stop making the Ranger fanbase as a whole look stupid and woefully ignorant

'the production isnt far off' - are you Lafreniere's father or mother? Because if not theres no explanation you can give to back this claim up

No no, lets take it a step further - Lafreniere has outpaced MacKinnon in his last two seasons based on ice time; so surely hes set to score over 110 points in two seasons

And notice you dont read this fuxking garbage for Kakko - thats because hes an actually-useful player outside production

This garbage is why Rangers fans get a bad name when it comes to Lafreniere and why HFboards feels the need to dunk on them every chance they get; because some losers like you parrot bullshit like this

Or you know you could read the context of the original post.
The argument was that Hughes earned his power play time. The discussion was comparing hughes.
Saying "the production isn't far off" was in terms of hughes's first two years, and comparing how hughes got fed powerplay time.

We read plenty of this "garbage" the past two years for kakko. It only took 3 years in the NHL to stop.

 

[PANARIN BREAD FAN]

Everyone got worse last year .

chytil and kaako got worse as well?

 

[SteadyEddie]

Previous thread - Player Discussion - Alexis Lafrenière: Part III

Here's a Hughes/Lafreniere comparison. In the Rangers/Devils series, Hughes was the fastest player on the ice. Lafreniere was the slowest. Lafreniere has all the tools except one.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

But you used his “incredible” even strength production to defend him but now I can’t use the same stats to say he’s horribly underperforming a first overall pick and producing like a late first rounder? I see how it is. The guys stat line also shows that he has 0 shots on goal in roughly half the games he played last season. That’s a real game breaker right there…. So invisible


But there organization is crumbling and Mathews( you know a legit first overall) has a lot to do with the entire cap and now crumble dynamics at work over there.

From a cap standpoint, the rangers are lucky both Laf and Kappo are on their way to busting because their cap would have been destroyed too if either actually was worth more than the pathetic bridge deals they both were forced to sign.

I wasnt talking about any of that, i was talking about player development. They properly developed their stars, we stiffled ours and told them to get better defensively and dangled a powerplay carrot above their heads they were never gonna get with Kreider, Zib, Fox, Panarin etc on the team.
We aren't lucky at all, had they developed them properly we wouldn't be running out and signing guys like Trochek and constantly trying to find someone to play in the top 6. They'd be playing there, we would also have our picks to backfill behind then still and we'd probably have moved on from Goodrow and used his money and Trocheks money to make up the difference and if we needed more we'd find that too. No organization has forward player development this bad, nobody. Go through our drafts, its embarassing.