Player Discussion Alexis Lafrenière

[IDvsEGO]

I dont mean break out like what Jack Hughes did, but more like continue improving his points production. If he can get close to 60+ points next season, that would indicate a good projection for him going forward. And I believe he can do that entering his 4th NHL season.

The entire problem is that almost no player in the NHL scores 60 points at even strength.
Connor Mcdavid this season put up 75 points at even strength.

Our PP 1 has been a top 10 unit and some of those pieces play in the spot laf should be playing on. Its a very chicken/egg problem. He needs to be on pp1, but in a position that suits him, and that isn't bumper or net front.

 

[NickyFotiu]

He's having another garlic knot. Give it time.

In all seriousness he is the one guy that I do actually wonder if he would sign an offer sheet. I didn't think Miller would unless something crazy like 8x8 came to him, but laffy I would wonder just from the standpoint of a clean restart to his career.

LOL do we still have a fitness thread? I'm trying to lose 12.5 pounds.

 

[jerseyjinx94]

Celebrating a conference finals run that is clearly not repeatable based on a flawed team is loser talk.

I’m aiming to win it all and don’t accept an undertalented team that can’t win.

31 teams lose every year. Only one of them was good enough to win it all. Your approach will leave you huffing and puffing almost every year of your life. We finished 6 wins away from the cup.

You don’t make a conference finals run and then say ah, that was a fluke. You try to tweak your group and take the next step. It’s not realistic.

 

[jerseyjinx94]

It's not "diminishing" how far they went, it's contextualizing how far they have to go.

Some people got drunk on that run and fell into the trap of believing the team was a true contender. You get teams making it to the Final Four who aren't elite, true contenders occasionally, because, as I pointed out, it only takes half the wins required to be a Champion to get to that spot.

That's exactly the point. Being in that last 4 teams standing means you are halfway there. It's not really all that amazing. You still have a long way to go. The other 12 teams being out of the picture is kinda irrelevant. You didn't beat them all, they are sorted out organically. Reaching the Conference Finals usually means you still have to face the two best other teams in the league to get the Cup. The easy part is rounds 1 and 2.

We had a long way to go and after going up 2-0, we kinda fell flat. I don't look at that run and say "we were right on the cusp." I see two relatively fortunate Game 7 series wins and then a complete bombardment from Game 3 onwards in that Conference Finals. Once Vasilevskiy got his feet under him, we couldn't score, and Tampa basically completely shut us down. We didn't really belong on that stage and won't until we figure out how to be a way better team at 5v5.

Some of that is that we require more young forward talent. Some of it will be coaching.

This is wrong.

Making the playoffs is technically halfway there, because you are in the top 16 of 32.

Making the final four puts you in the top 4/16 teams who got halfway there.

You’re analyzing it in a way that significantly diminishes the significance of reaching the conference finals.

Even if you take the playoffs for granted, by the time you reach the conference finals, 3/4 of the teams who made the playoffs have been eliminated.

Edit: To be clear I don’t disagree with your point about 5v5 play. What I disagree with is taking facts and presenting them in a way to support your point when it’s not necessary. You can acknowledge that run was significant while also saying that the team needs to improve 5v5 to win it all. They are not mutually exclusive.

 

[PANARIN BREAD FAN]

LOL do we still have a fitness thread? I'm trying to lose 12.5 pounds.

very simple. find out what he doesn't like to eat and then eat that. in no time you'll lose 20 lbs instead of the targeted 12.5.

as said a few times on hbo back in the day,

never had the makings of a varsity athlete​

 

[NickyFotiu]

very simple. find out what he doesn't like to eat and then eat that. in no time you'll lose 20 lbs instead of the targeted 12.5.

as said a few times on hbo back in the day,

never had the makings of a varsity athlete​

LOL I just want to find the fitness thread

 

[bhamill]

Is anyone really arguing this? I don’t think anyone, even his most ardent detractors, thinks that he is what he is. The concern remains that the path to a dominant player, call it a 100 point scorer, looks super sketchy at the moment.

He’s clearly going to be at least a 65 point guy through his prime. No one thinks he’s going to remain a third line, 40 point player.

I agree. BUT. I’ve had people on here tell me EXPLICITLY “he will never be more than a third liner“ or a journeyman, and say we should trade him for a mid round pick.
That said, I was responding to this season making or breaking him. I don’t think it’s the case, though the longer he takes to break out the more disappointing it is.

I dont mean break out like what Jack Hughes did, but more like continue improving his points production. If he can get close to 60+ points next season, that would indicate a good projection for him going forward. And I believe he can do that entering his 4th NHL season.

Sure, steady improvement is what we should EXPECT.

 

[Bacon Artemi Bravo]

very simple. find out what he doesn't like to eat and then eat that. in no time you'll lose 20 lbs instead of the targeted 12.5.

as said a few times on hbo back in the day,

never had the makings of a varsity athlete​

 

[mas0764]

31 teams lose every year. Only one of them was good enough to win it all. Your approach will leave you huffing and puffing almost every year of your life. We finished 6 wins away from the cup.

You don’t make a conference finals run and then say ah, that was a fluke. You try to tweak your group and take the next step. It’s not realistic.

Nonsense. Your approach makes sense when you have more than 1 Cup on 80 years.

At this stage not building a long term winner who can get a Cup or three is inexcusable.

Celebrating getting barely more than halfway through the playoffs - sorry, “not even two thirds of the way through the playoffs,” is loser talk. Especially when you have one Cup in 80 years.

If you have won a Cup or two in the last decade then it’s not a failure in the same way.

It’s time for this team to build a powerhouse winner. Building another Henrik Lundqvist style shitty playoff team that’s carried by its goalie is failure for this org and there is no other way to frame it.

 

[NickyFotiu]

Nonsense. Your approach makes sense when you have more than 1 Cup on 80 years.

At this stage not building a long term winner who can get a Cup or three is inexcusable.

Celebrating getting barely more than halfway through the playoffs - sorry, “not even two thirds of the way through the playoffs,” is loser talk. Especially when you have one Cup in 80 years.

If you have won a Cup or two in the last decade then it’s not a failure in the same way.

It’s time for this team to build a powerhouse winner. Building another Henrik Lundqvist style shitty playoff team that’s carried by its goalie is failure for this org and there is no other way to frame it.

How many players, coaches, and management were here even 30 years ago nevermind 80 years ago? Throwing out that number seems pretty irrelavant to me. Are you responsible for things your great grandfather did?

 

[haohmaru]

Nonsense. Your approach makes sense when you have more than 1 Cup on 80 years.

At this stage not building a long term winner who can get a Cup or three is inexcusable.

Celebrating getting barely more than halfway through the playoffs - sorry, “not even two thirds of the way through the playoffs,” is loser talk. Especially when you have one Cup in 80 years.

If you have won a Cup or two in the last decade then it’s not a failure in the same way.

It’s time for this team to build a powerhouse winner. Building another Henrik Lundqvist style shitty playoff team that’s carried by its goalie is failure for this org and there is no other way to frame it.

This is so simplistic that it's almost nonsense. I mean, 31 other teams are also trying to build teams to win Cups. You act as if there's a magic formula that'll get you "a cup or three" and everyone else is too stupid to figure out what it is.

Parity, the cap, the nature of signing RFA's/UFA's, development of youth, luck, injuries, etc... all factor into having a great team or even a great year. It's a crapshoot every year.

There have been 8 franchises that have won Cups in the past 10 years. I suspect that's a trend that continues.

 

[mas0764]

31 other teams also trying to win doesn’t mean when you don’t win it’s not failure.

First of all, the Coyotes aren’t trying to win to the same degree the Rangers are. We can eliminate probably a third of the teams right off the bat that don’t have ownership or fanbases that are as serious as ours. We are an original 6 team and more should be expected of our franchise due to our allure and our resources. That’s just reality.

The next issue is, so what if it’s a competition with a bunch of other teams? We failed. That’s what losing is. The law of averages says you should get one every 32 years, not 80. We are way behind and it’s time to call failure what it is.

There is a formula that works and there’s a formula that doesn’t. Our formula of putting together a poorly skilled team with a hot goalie doesn’t work. The formula of acquiring a ton of young forward high end talent works way better.

Of course there are exceptions but we haven’t managed to make ourselves into one because we keep trying the formula that doesn’t work as well.

Once this “window” closes without a Cup win, as it likely will, we need to go back to doing it the tried and true way. Which we started then abandoned.

 

[IDvsEGO]

The next issue is, so what if it’s a competition with a bunch of other teams? We failed. That’s what losing is. The law of averages says you should get one every 32 years, not 80. We are way behind and it’s time to call failure what it is.

There is a formula that works and there’s a formula that doesn’t. Our formula of putting together a poorly skilled team with a hot goalie doesn’t work. The formula of acquiring a ton of young forward high end talent works way better.

Of course there are exceptions but we haven’t managed to make ourselves into one because we keep trying the formula that doesn’t work as well.

Once this “window” closes without a Cup win, as it likely will, we need to go back to doing it the tried and true way. Which we started then abandoned.

I dont know where you think the rangers organization is putting together a team of "poorly skilled but with a hot goalie".
the 2013-14 Rangers were lead in scoring by Zuc with 59 points. Leading goal scorer Rick Nash with 26. 7 players with 10+ Goals
The 2022-23 Rangers were lead in scoring by Panarin with 96 points. Leading goal scorer Mika with 39. 10 players with 10+ goals.

5th on the rangers in 13-14 was McD with 43 points (the top defenseman for the team)
5th on the rangers in 22-23 was Kreider with 54 points. (the top defenseman for the team is fox with 72 points)

We have a good goalie who can get hot. We are not a slow skilled team in any way shape or form.

 

[haohmaru]

31 other teams also trying to win doesn’t mean when you don’t win it’s not failure.

Then 97% of teams are failures every year. Which is a ridiculous notion.

First of all, the Coyotes aren’t trying to win to the same degree the Rangers are. We can eliminate probably a third of the teams right off the bat that don’t have ownership or fanbases that are as serious as ours. We are an original 6 team and more should be expected of our franchise due to our allure and our resources. That’s just reality.

Yeah, but they always try to build through the draft and have had zero success in doing so and can't retain players because they don't spend money on leadership. There are two sides to this coin.

The next issue is, so what if it’s a competition with a bunch of other teams? We failed. That’s what losing is. The law of averages says you should get one every 32 years, not 80. We are way behind and it’s time to call failure what it is.

1994 - 2003 = 29 years. They've got three years to meet your "law of averages". I mean, if you want to selectively use stats as you are, they have 4 Cups in 97 years so they could not win for another 31 years and still be within your law of averages bullshit.

St. Louis has one won Cup since its inception in 1967. The Leafs haven't won since that same year. They Isles, Oilers, Canadians, etc... haven't won in longer than we have.

Unfortunately, "modern hockey" is all about parity which makes it almost impossible to get the right mix of youth and vets, retain the guys you draft, make smart UFA acquisitions, get lucky in some later draft rounds, get guys to play for you for less than their value, etc...

There's a perfect storm that makes you a Cup winner. The right team, the right path in the playoffs, the right mix of players that will play for each others, injury, luck, series length, etc...

You can build a close to perfect team and get handed your walking papers in the first round.

See: Boston 2022-23.

There is a formula that works and there’s a formula that doesn’t. Our formula of putting together a poorly skilled team with a hot goalie doesn’t work. The formula of acquiring a ton of young forward high end talent works way better.

The Rangers were a "poorly skilled team" last year? That's f***ing hilarious. They were a lot of things. Poorly skilled isn't one of them.

 

[Profet]

The Rangers were a "poorly skilled team" last year? That's f***ing hilarious. They were a lot of things. Poorly skilled isn't one of them.

Show me one player that has shown both the ability and willingness to beat a defenseman one on one.

I believe that's what is being referenced.

Panarin used to do it, but now it's just backhand shovel it to the opposing team.

 

[IDvsEGO]

Show me one player that has shown both the ability and willingness to beat a defenseman one on one.

I believe that's what is being referenced.

Panarin used to do it, but now it's just backhand shovel it to the opposing team.

Beat a defenseman how and where?
Like in a 1 on 1?
More than half our top 6 can do that. and 2/3 of our top 9 probably.

Unless the defenseman is hedman, they can walk alot of d in the NHL.

The rangers had flaws last year, not enough "talent" wasn't one of them.

 

[Profet]

Beat a defenseman how and where?
Like in a 1 on 1?
More than half our top 6 can do that. and 2/3 of our top 9 probably.

Unless the defenseman is hedman, they can walk alot of d in the NHL.

The rangers had flaws last year, not enough "talent" wasn't one of them.

Yes... That's exactly what I said, one on one.

More than half of our top 6? Really?

Zib? Nope.
Kreider? Nope.
Trochek? Nope.
Panarin? Not in the last 2 years.

So please tell me. Which of our top 6 routinely even attempts to beat a defenseman one on one?

 

[mas0764]

This idea that it’s just all random and it’s all luck to win a Cup is a flat out lie.

No, some orgs know what they are doing and are consistently better than others, and some don’t know what they are doing, generally like us, and win One Cup in 80 years.

We have done things many different varieties of the wrong way since I’ve been watching as a kid. The post-Cup euphoria era, the Dark Ages, the Henrik years, and now the “Rebuild.” Each of them had their own unique flaws but each of them definitely failed in their own way.

And yea, 97% of the teams do fail every year. That being said, as a fan, should you be despondent any year that your team doesn’t win the Cup? No. There are moral victories. There is identifying progress. Yeah, winning a Cup is hard, so if you can win one and then spend a decade as a contender, before tearing it down and doing the same the next decade, you are doing it mostly right. You have the secret sauce to bring good nearly all the time and winning more than your share of Cups. You don’t have to call the years you didn’t win “failures,” necessarily, when you have shown you know how to win more than your share of Championships to begin with.

But this franchise doesn’t embody that, and if you have been fooled into thinking the past two seasons are moral victories again, you’re a sucker. It’s just more of the same road to failure we have been getting.

This isn’t a team building to a Cup, it’s a team building to nowhere. It hasn’t properly developed its kids. It’s added veterans who have crapped the bed at 5v5 and in the playoffs. It’s got bad contracts galore.

It’s not out of the realm of possibility that it gets lucky, but if it does, don’t expect any sustained success in your lifetime, cause it will have been a blind squirrel finding a nut. The adding of expensive, aging veterans at the cost of first round picks each of the last two deadlines reinforces that they just don’t get it. Their team wasn’t close. They barely got out of the second round and got smoked in the third round. Then this year they were dispatched by a team that DID commit to a full rebuild. Gee, do they pay attention?

No. Because to them, that’s close enough to catch lightning in a bottle, but they can’t see the chasm in between them and the real contenders.

Caveat: if Laviolette comes here and flips the switch for these guys, and has Panarin, Zibanejad, Kakko, Laf and Chytil all looking like the stars they never have this past 2-3 seasons, then that very well might be the right talent. But I can only go by what they show on the ice and what this core has shown, it’s obviously not good enough.

 

[IDvsEGO]

This idea that it’s just all random and it’s all luck to win a Cup is a flat out lie.

No, some orgs know what they are doing and are consistently better than others, and some don’t know what they are doing, generally like us, and win One Cup in 80 years.

We have done things many different varieties of the wrong way since I’ve been watching as a kid. The post-Cup euphoria era, the Dark Ages, the Henrik years, and now the “Rebuild.” Each of them had their own unique flaws but each of them definitely failed in their own way.

And yea, 97% of the teams do fail every year. That being said, as a fan, should you be despondent any year that your team doesn’t win the Cup? No. There are moral victories. There is identifying progress. Yeah, winning a Cup is hard, so if you can win one and then spend a decade as a contender, before tearing it down and doing the same the next decade, you are doing it mostly right. You have the secret sauce to bring good nearly all the time and winning more than your share of Cups. You don’t have to call the years you didn’t win “failures,” necessarily, when you have shown you know how to win more than your share of Championships to begin with.

But this franchise doesn’t embody that, and if you have been fooled into thinking the past two seasons are moral victories again, you’re a sucker. It’s just more of the same road to failure we have been getting.

This isn’t a team building to a Cup, it’s a team building to nowhere. It hasn’t properly developed its kids. It’s added veterans who have crapped the bed at 5v5 and in the playoffs. It’s got bad contracts galore.

It’s not out of the realm of possibility that it gets lucky, but if it does, don’t expect any sustained success in your lifetime, cause it will have been a blind squirrel finding a nut. The adding of expensive, aging veterans at the cost of first round picks each of the last two deadlines reinforces that they just don’t get it. Their team wasn’t close. They barely got out of the second round and got smoked in the third round. Then this year they were dispatched by a team that DID commit to a full rebuild. Gee, do they pay attention?

No. Because to them, that’s close enough to catch lightning in a bottle, but they can’t see the chasm in between them and the real contenders.

Caveat: if Laviolette comes here and flips the switch for these guys, and has Panarin, Zibanejad, Kakko, Laf and Chytil all looking like the stars they never have this past 2-3 seasons, then that very well might be the right talent. But I can only go by what they show on the ice and what this core has shown, it’s obviously not good enough.

Every core is either not good enough until they are.

 

[mas0764]

Every core is either not good enough until they are.

Tick tock, then.

But you can see the flaws with this core; at least as they’ve performed under Gallant. If Laviolette can get a tiger to change its stripes, we will see, but that, just like building a team around an under talented forward core, is betting against the odds.

 

[IDvsEGO]

Tick tock, then.

But you can see the flaws with this core; at least as they’ve performed under Gallant. If Laviolette can get a tiger to change its stripes, we will see, but that, just like building a team around an under talented forward core, is betting against the odds.

Sure but you can see the flaws in every real stanley cup contender right now.
Even the team that won the cup has a bunch of flaws that are exposable.

Sure but you keep saying "under talented" and thats also not the truth.
We have a top 5 player in 3 different positions.

LW/Defense/Goalie

We have a top 10-15 (depending on who you ask) center.

Sure there are questions about the kids, but this isn't the tort's era of hockey where it might've been better if we declined power plays.
We have skill up and down the lineup.

The question is can our kids put it together, and display skill. Not "do they actually have skill"

 

[bhamill]

Show me one player that has shown both the ability and willingness to beat a defenseman one on one.

I believe that's what is being referenced.

Panarin used to do it, but now it's just backhand shovel it to the opposing team.

Okay.

 

[UnSandvich]

I really just want the team to play well within an organized structure. Because we haven't had one of those since at least Vigneault. And maybe even just the first year or two under him

 

[Shesterkybomb]

This idea that it’s just all random and it’s all luck to win a Cup is a flat out lie.

No, some orgs know what they are doing and are consistently better than others, and some don’t know what they are doing, generally like us, and win One Cup in 80 years.

We have done things many different varieties of the wrong way since I’ve been watching as a kid. The post-Cup euphoria era, the Dark Ages, the Henrik years, and now the “Rebuild.” Each of them had their own unique flaws but each of them definitely failed in their own way.

And yea, 97% of the teams do fail every year. That being said, as a fan, should you be despondent any year that your team doesn’t win the Cup? No. There are moral victories. There is identifying progress. Yeah, winning a Cup is hard, so if you can win one and then spend a decade as a contender, before tearing it down and doing the same the next decade, you are doing it mostly right. You have the secret sauce to bring good nearly all the time and winning more than your share of Cups. You don’t have to call the years you didn’t win “failures,” necessarily, when you have shown you know how to win more than your share of Championships to begin with.

But this franchise doesn’t embody that, and if you have been fooled into thinking the past two seasons are moral victories again, you’re a sucker. It’s just more of the same road to failure we have been getting.

This isn’t a team building to a Cup, it’s a team building to nowhere. It hasn’t properly developed its kids. It’s added veterans who have crapped the bed at 5v5 and in the playoffs. It’s got bad contracts galore.

It’s not out of the realm of possibility that it gets lucky, but if it does, don’t expect any sustained success in your lifetime, cause it will have been a blind squirrel finding a nut. The adding of expensive, aging veterans at the cost of first round picks each of the last two deadlines reinforces that they just don’t get it. Their team wasn’t close. They barely got out of the second round and got smoked in the third round. Then this year they were dispatched by a team that DID commit to a full rebuild. Gee, do they pay attention?

No. Because to them, that’s close enough to catch lightning in a bottle, but they can’t see the chasm in between them and the real contenders.

Caveat: if Laviolette comes here and flips the switch for these guys, and has Panarin, Zibanejad, Kakko, Laf and Chytil all looking like the stars they never have this past 2-3 seasons, then that very well might be the right talent. But I can only go by what they show on the ice and what this core has shown, it’s obviously not good enough.

Starts at the top, get rid of Sather, it didn't take long once he got his guy , Drury, as the GM to find ourselves getting to be an older team, thats not a coincidence, we've followed the sather playbook to a T the last two years. We've sent draft picks away for older players and rentals before we were ready.

 

[IDvsEGO]

Starts at the top, get rid of Sather, it didn't take long once he got his guy , Drury, as the GM to find ourselves getting to be an older team, thats not a coincidence, we've followed the sather playbook to a T the last two years. We've sent draft picks away for older players and rentals before we were ready.

Older team?
ok we got wheeler great yeah he's old.
Aside from Kane, the other moves have been guys who are not "older players"

We are still a fairly young team, and if you weight ice time by age, I have a feeling the rangers will be one of the younger teams again next year (outside of the tankers)