Player Discussion Alexis Lafrenière

[bleedblue94]

Hahaha. I get it, you don’t like our chances. You’re totally entitled and I’m not looking to change your mind.
My point wasn’t that I was right or wrong on Vegas, OR FL for that matter. My point is that it’s July, NYR have a terrific foundation with Fox, Shesty and Mika. Kreider, Pan, Trocheck, Trouba are all vets that back them up, then you have emerging talent in Laf, Kakko, Chytil , Miller and Schneider. And decent possible young contributors in Cuylle and Othmann. It’s hardly inconceivable that Wheeler looked at this team and the new coaching staff and liked his chances of winning here.

My issue is that based on watching last year I never saw a playoff ready team. 2 years ago their game evolved in the playoffs after the pitt series into a playoff game and part of that was because of some players that aren't here now and the way they played but it all horrifically reverted last year and we didn't see the same type of adds to compliment the core, we saw the name adds again. My issue is a player like Wheeler is the same thing and doest change the mix that much.

Also this whole thing started when people told me Wheeler would be on the 3rd line w Kreider and trocheck and I questioned that. All the comments from people after that are based on assumptions that I think Wheeler is completely washed up, which I don't. I just don't think he is the top 6 player this team is missing and he WILL be playing in the top six despite others saying he will be a 3rd liner. He WILL get prime opportunity, that's why he signed here. I think you jumped in after others realized he is playing top 6 and they gave up on the fantasy that he will be on the 3rd line. I guess somehow that turned into I think he's worthless and terrible which is not what I ever said. If he's here to be a 3rd liner and add depth all for it, but within the top 6 it doesn't change things. I mean does Kreider zib kakko, panarin chytil Wheeler really change that much? I don't think it does. We still will have many of the same issues.

 

[Kakko Schmakko]

Goodrow PPG last 2 seasons = .39
Bonino PPG Last 2 seasons = .32
Cap savings+$2,841,667

but Bonino doesn't play physical, so he is useless.

 

[bhamill]

My issue is that based on watching last year I never saw a playoff ready team. 2 years ago their game evolved in the playoffs after the pitt series into a playoff game and part of that was because of some players that aren't here now and the way they played but it all horrifically reverted last year and we didn't see the same type of adds to compliment the core, we saw the name adds again. My issue is a player like Wheeler is the same thing and doest change the mix that much.

Also this whole thing started when people told me Wheeler would be on the 3rd line w Kreider and trocheck and I questioned that. All the comments from people after that are based on assumptions that I think Wheeler is completely washed up, which I don't. I just don't think he is the top 6 player this team is missing and he WILL be playing in the top six despite others saying he will be a 3rd liner. He WILL get prime opportunity, that's why he signed here. I think you jumped in after others realized he is playing top 6 and they gave up on the fantasy that he will be on the 3rd line. I guess somehow that turned into I think he's worthless and terrible which is not what I ever said. If he's here to be a 3rd liner and add depth all for it, but within the top 6 it doesn't change things. I mean does Kreider zib kakko, panarin chytil Wheeler really change that much? I don't think it does. We still will have many of the same issues.

I’m not commenting on where Wheeler will play. I’m content to wait and see. Seems better than getting worked up over totally subjective prediction.
And again, your subjective take on their chances doesn’t translate to EVERYONE having that take. Opinions vary. Including Wheeler’s, unless he has confided in you.
Arguing opinions is futile beyond much more than us all just GIVING ours. I’m not trying to change your mind, and you won’t be changing mine, I am just telling you what I think and including why I think it’s very possible Wheeler thinks he can win here. Because that IS OBJECTIVELY a possibility.

 

[McRanger92]

Lafreniere should play with Kane when he’s healthy

 

[bhamill]

Lafreniere should play with Kane when he’s healthy

TROUBLEMAKER!
hahahaha.

 

[Mac n Gs]

I don't think this is a great comparison, but I do think Laf should try to look into how Filip Forsberg grew his game and turned into a really good scoring winger. Part of that started with Laviolette throwing him into the fire as a top-line LW, PP1 player in Nashville in his D+4 year. Laf's in the same spot now.

Like I said, it's not perfect, but I think it's a good player for Laf to try to model his game after. Part of the issue for me is that I don't think he knows what type of player he wants to be at the NHL level. Peca did really well with Jack Quinn and JJ Peterka these last two years. Muse has done a great job with the USNTDP. I think there's a good support system in place to help Laf take the next step. Laf has to take the next step for himself now too.

 

[duhmetreE]

Laffy for Cooley type of deal is what it'd take to move him.

How fitting that our only #1OA exemplified the lazy country club attitude.

I still have hope he mentally matures, puts in the work and starts living up to his pedigree.

 

[mas0764]

Laffy for Cooley type of deal is what it'd take to move him.

How fitting that our only #1OA exemplified the lazy country club attitude.

I still have hope he mentally matures, puts in the work and starts living up to his pedigree.

That still seems like selling short Lafreniere's potential. If Laf figures it out, he's still so much more valuable than that.

I'm not willing to sell it short yet, even knowing that the farther along you go, if he doesn't figure it out, you won't even get a Cooley type. Oh well. Unless someone really knocks my socks off, which I think is basically impossible, I think you ride or die with Laf.

 

[EdJovanovski]

That still seems like selling short Lafreniere's potential. If Laf figures it out, he's still so much more valuable than that.

I'm not willing to sell it short yet, even knowing that the farther along you go, if he doesn't figure it out, you won't even get a Cooley type. Oh well. Unless someone really knocks my socks off, which I think is basically impossible, I think you ride or die with Laf.

Huh?? Cooley definitely goes #1 in a redraft, he’s probably the best prospect in the world not named Bedard or Michkov

 

[mas0764]

Huh?? Cooley definitely goes #1 in a redraft, he’s probably the best prospect in the world not named Bedard or Michkov

Perhaps my info on him is out of date, but this seems like an optimistic take on Cooley.

 

[GENESISPuck94]

Lafreniere should play with Kane when he’s healthy

He should demand a trade to a team that knows how to properly develop 1st overall picks.

 

[GENESISPuck94]

I guess this is more relevant here.


Lafreniere ATOI on the season was 15:13. 3 career PP goals. 4 career PP points.

His peers:
Jack Hughes over 19+ 3 of the last 4 years and rookie season was 15:52. As an 18 year old played more than Lafreniere was played as a 21 year old. 20 of his 87 career goals are PP goals. 14 PP points in 20-21, 7 the year prior, 31 PP points this year.
Kirby Dach 18+ 3 of last 4 seasons, 16 PP points this year
Tim Stutzle 21:16, 28 PP points this year, 21 of his career 73 goals are PP goals.
Dylan Cozens 16:30, 18 PP points this year
Lucas Raymond 17:23, 19 PP points this season
Anton Lundell 16:22, 5 of his 33 points were on the PP
Trevor Zegras 18:50, 17 PP points this year
Matt Boldy 18:30. 26 PP points this year, 8 PP goals
Andrei Svechnikov 18+, 17+, & 16+ 4 of his 5 years, 16 PP points this year
Brady Tkachuk 18+ 4 of his 5 years 16+ his rookie season. 10 PP points his rookie season. 29 PP points this year
Mat Beniers 17:06, 10 PP points this year.
Mason McTavish 15:22, 14 PP points this year, 7 PP goals
Kent Johnson 12 PP points

Id keep going but don't have the time right now. Every one of his peers other than Byfield, Holtz (who he outscored both naturally) and Johnson have had considerably more ice time and/or more PP time.

I don't give a f*** what his EV ice was relative to the Rangers was. That only proves the bulk of his ice time has been tougher minutes. It's considerably harder to score at EV. And all he's done his NHL career so far is produce at EV. He scored 19 EV goals as a 20 year old.

I was at a Devils game a couple weeks before Covid lockdowns and Hughes was on the ice CONSTANTLY. Kid was barely ever not on the ice. In every situation. EV, PP, SH. Kid was out there more than most of the defensemen playing. He looked like a child on the ice he was much smaller than most the players on the ice. Now the Devils are great and the kid is great and we wonder why?

If Lafreniere stapled to the top 6 like his peers, if he were stapled to the top PP unit like his peers, he'd be outscoring all of them except for Hughes.

But keep on riding the Rangers and their shit decisions. Stop wondering why they don't develop forwards. It's not the countless forwards that came through the organization. It's the organization and its Neanderthal archaic old-boys club culture. Prioritizing 30+, 35+ year olds, placating huge contract wingers that refuse to show up when it matters. No accountability for veterans. Double standards.

 

[LORDE]

I was, and I was expecting a natural progression for the young players to build into a contender, not a halfass rebuild that then gets completely backfilled with vets. What the org has done the last 2 years completely undid the letter and rebuild attempt. I would much rather be the sabers or devils right now then the rangers based on the org development, growth of young players into roles, and the longer term outlook for success

Perfect post. Kudos

 

[haohmaru]

My issue is that based on watching last year I never saw a playoff ready team. 2 years ago their game evolved in the playoffs after the pitt series into a playoff game and part of that was because of some players that aren't here now and the way they played but it all horrifically reverted last year and we didn't see the same type of adds to compliment the core, we saw the name adds again. My issue is a player like Wheeler is the same thing and doest change the mix that much.

Also this whole thing started when people told me Wheeler would be on the 3rd line w Kreider and trocheck and I questioned that. All the comments from people after that are based on assumptions that I think Wheeler is completely washed up, which I don't. I just don't think he is the top 6 player this team is missing and he WILL be playing in the top six despite others saying he will be a 3rd liner. He WILL get prime opportunity, that's why he signed here. I think you jumped in after others realized he is playing top 6 and they gave up on the fantasy that he will be on the 3rd line. I guess somehow that turned into I think he's worthless and terrible which is not what I ever said. If he's here to be a 3rd liner and add depth all for it, but within the top 6 it doesn't change things. I mean does Kreider zib kakko, panarin chytil Wheeler really change that much? I don't think it does. We still will have many of the same issues.

I still think he'll be on the third line and not with Kreider and showed my lines.

Kreider / Zib / Kakko
Panarin / Chytil / Lafreniere
Cuylle / Trocheck / Wheeler
Goodrow / Bonino / Vesey

If Lafreniere isn't moved to RW in the top 6 then Wheeler will be on the 2nd line. Who's your better option there other than an experiment with Lafreniere?

Maybe Kane makes things interesting at some point.

I don't see what other options the Rangers have/had given their cap space.

And I'm going to put less stock in this years playoff performance than you because I watch sports to be an optimist and, honestly, in almost 50 years of watching playoff hockey this year's turd was the hardest to watch.

That being said, Tampa got smoked in 4 games by Columbus and that didn't exactly offer up a whole lot of hope for the following season and look what happened there.

 

[mas0764]

I guess this is more relevant here.


Lafreniere ATOI on the season was 15:13. 3 career PP goals. 4 career PP points.

His peers:
Jack Hughes over 19+ 3 of the last 4 years and rookie season was 15:52. As an 18 year old played more than Lafreniere was played as a 21 year old. 20 of his 87 career goals are PP goals. 14 PP points in 20-21, 7 the year prior, 31 PP points this year.
Kirby Dach 18+ 3 of last 4 seasons, 16 PP points this year
Tim Stutzle 21:16, 28 PP points this year, 21 of his career 73 goals are PP goals.
Dylan Cozens 16:30, 18 PP points this year
Lucas Raymond 17:23, 19 PP points this season
Anton Lundell 16:22, 5 of his 33 points were on the PP
Trevor Zegras 18:50, 17 PP points this year
Matt Boldy 18:30. 26 PP points this year, 8 PP goals
Andrei Svechnikov 18+, 17+, & 16+ 4 of his 5 years, 16 PP points this year
Brady Tkachuk 18+ 4 of his 5 years 16+ his rookie season. 10 PP points his rookie season. 29 PP points this year
Mat Beniers 17:06, 10 PP points this year.
Mason McTavish 15:22, 14 PP points this year, 7 PP goals
Kent Johnson 12 PP points

Id keep going but don't have the time right now. Every one of his peers other than Byfield, Holtz (who he outscored both naturally) and Johnson have had considerably more ice time and/or more PP time.

I don't give a f*** what his EV ice was relative to the Rangers was. That only proves the bulk of his ice time has been tougher minutes. It's considerably harder to score at EV. And all he's done his NHL career so far is produce at EV. He scored 19 EV goals as a 20 year old.

I was at a Devils game a couple weeks before Covid lockdowns and Hughes was on the ice CONSTANTLY. Kid was barely ever not on the ice. In every situation. EV, PP, SH. Kid was out there more than most of the defensemen playing. He looked like a child on the ice he was much smaller than most the players on the ice. Now the Devils are great and the kid is great and we wonder why?

If Lafreniere stapled to the top 6 like his peers, if he were stapled to the top PP unit like his peers, he'd be outscoring all of them except for Hughes.

But keep on riding the Rangers and their shit decisions. Stop wondering why they don't develop forwards. It's not the countless forwards that came through the organization. It's the organization and its Neanderthal archaic old-boys club culture. Prioritizing 30+, 35+ year olds, placating huge contract wingers that refuse to show up when it matters. No accountability for veterans. Double standards.

Even if it's a legit criticism that "Lafreniere sucks on the power play," then it becomes a very legitimate question of "why does Lafreniere suck on the power play?"

Because find that answer and his production looks a lot more like those names above.

It seems unreasonable to conclude that he can produce 19 EV goals in a season but then be too stupid, fat or slow to figure out how to produce in man up situations. The extra time and space should be helpful to a slow player. That conclusion seems contradictory.

I maintain, as I have, that he's confused.

I was, and I was expecting a natural progression for the young players to build into a contender, not a halfass rebuild that then gets completely backfilled with vets. What the org has done the last 2 years completely undid the letter and rebuild attempt. I would much rather be the sabers or devils right now then the rangers based on the org development, growth of young players into roles, and the longer term outlook for success

Yeah, I agree.

I hate to say it but signing all these older vets, even to one year deals that aren't Dark-Age Rangers handing out long term contracts to 30 year olds.....

.... it reeks of acknowledgement that the team isn't deep enough or talented enough to be on the top tier with the true contenders. This seems like trying to keep a playoff team afloat more than moves to steer them into contention.

 

[IDvsEGO]

Even if it's a legit criticism that "Lafreniere sucks on the power play," then it becomes a very legitimate question of "why does Lafreniere suck on the power play?"

Because find that answer and his production looks a lot more like those names above.

It seems unreasonable to conclude that he can produce 19 EV goals in a season but then be too stupid, fat or slow to figure out how to produce in man up situations. The extra time and space should be helpful to a slow player. That conclusion seems contradictory.

I maintain, as I have, that he's confused.



Yeah, I agree.

I hate to say it but signing all these older vets, even to one year deals that aren't Dark-Age Rangers handing out long term contracts to 30 year olds.....

.... it reeks of acknowledgement that the team isn't deep enough or talented enough to be on the top tier with the true contenders. This seems like trying to keep a playoff team afloat more than moves to steer them into contention.

I don’t know these moves seem more like
We want the kids to take a big step, and are going to let them compete for the spots but not block them, and we won’t be a true contender unless they really do take a big step.

 

[GENESISPuck94]

Even if it's a legit criticism that "Lafreniere sucks on the power play," then it becomes a very legitimate question of "why does Lafreniere suck on the power play?"

Because find that answer and his production looks a lot more like those names above.

It seems unreasonable to conclude that he can produce 19 EV goals in a season but then be too stupid, fat or slow to figure out how to produce in man up situations. The extra time and space should be helpful to a slow player. That conclusion seems contradictory.

I maintain, as I have, that he's confused.



Yeah, I agree.

I hate to say it but signing all these older vets, even to one year deals that aren't Dark-Age Rangers handing out long term contracts to 30 year olds.....

.... it reeks of acknowledgement that the team isn't deep enough or talented enough to be on the top tier with the true contenders. This seems like trying to keep a playoff team afloat more than moves to steer them into contention.

He's also not being used correctly. Gallant thought somehow to make him the man in front of the net on the PP. Yes he's scored a lot in his hockey career in close to the net. But his strength with open ice is his ability to find seams and passing lanes. He should be on one of the half walls setting up his teammates on the PP.

"But Panarin".

OK, but Panarin... then put him in the bumper spot where he would also be effective.

"But Trocheck"

And here's the huge problem. Prioritizing Vincent f'n Trocheck on the PP over your 1 overall pick? And wonder why they "can't" develop young forwards. There's no can't. They refuse to develop young forwards.

 

[Synergy27]

Perhaps my info on him is out of date, but this seems like an optimistic take on Cooley.

Your info is certainly out of date.

Cooley just put up 60 points in the NCAA as a freshman. He’s a beast.

Add in the fact that we’d get to reset on the ELC years and you’ll see why this trade would never happen because it’s so lopsided in our favor.

 

[NickyFotiu]

I guess this is more relevant here.


Lafreniere ATOI on the season was 15:13. 3 career PP goals. 4 career PP points.

His peers:
Jack Hughes over 19+ 3 of the last 4 years and rookie season was 15:52. As an 18 year old played more than Lafreniere was played as a 21 year old. 20 of his 87 career goals are PP goals. 14 PP points in 20-21, 7 the year prior, 31 PP points this year.
Tim Stutzle 21:16, 28 PP points this year, 21 of his career 73 goals are PP goals.

I'm only going to compare to Hughes and Tim since they are the #1 pick the year before Laf and the #3 pick in Lafs draft. For discussion sake lets forget about stats. That is a big break for Laf. No stats of any kind so we do not know how many goals or points any of these 3 players have put up. If you are a hockey scout and you watch Huges, Laf, and Tim on the ice at the same time. Do you think all 3 players look to be the same ability level? Do you view their skating, puckhandling, shooting, vision, passing at the same level? Do you really believe the main significant difference is playing more on the PP?

 

[PuckLuck3043]

Even if it's a legit criticism that "Lafreniere sucks on the power play," then it becomes a very legitimate question of "why does Lafreniere suck on the power play?"

Because find that answer and his production looks a lot more like those names above.

It seems unreasonable to conclude that he can produce 19 EV goals in a season but then be too stupid, fat or slow to figure out how to produce in man up situations. The extra time and space should be helpful to a slow player. That conclusion seems contradictory.

I maintain, as I have, that he's confused.



Yeah, I agree.

I hate to say it but signing all these older vets, even to one year deals that aren't Dark-Age Rangers handing out long term contracts to 30 year olds.....

.... it reeks of acknowledgement that the team isn't deep enough or talented enough to be on the top tier with the true contenders. This seems like trying to keep a playoff team afloat more than moves to steer them into contention.

It's ok to actually add players to fill needs and get better. These are 1 year deals and none of the kids are going to be blocked or limited in ice time. Competition and depth are good things to have. I see nothing wrong with this but some of you are so fixated on age. Laf, Kakko, Chytil, Miller, and Schneider are all going get their ice time and hopefully continue to grow. We had real needs at RW and bottom pair D and we addressed them plus added other cheap depth. Guys like Cuylle and Jones will possibly have a more difficult time making the team but that is what competition is all about. I see absolutely nothing wrong with this especially when all these signings are cheap and 1 year deals. Young Guys like Cuylle, Sykora, Othmann, Berard, etc are going to get their chance very very soon.

 

[bleedblue94]

I’m not commenting on where Wheeler will play. I’m content to wait and see. Seems better than getting worked up over totally subjective prediction.
And again, your subjective take on their chances doesn’t translate to EVERYONE having that take. Opinions vary. Including Wheeler’s, unless he has confided in you.
Arguing opinions is futile beyond much more than us all just GIVING ours. I’m not trying to change your mind, and you won’t be changing mine, I am just telling you what I think and including why I think it’s very possible Wheeler thinks he can win here. Because that IS OBJECTIVELY a possibility.

So you think Wheeler came here simply to win? You're suggesting that there aren't better teams that would take him for 800k? Of course there are. He's here bc he's going to play w zib or panarin and rebuild his value prior to one more cash in contract. No one wanted him for 4m (half cap hit), he took this deal to rebuild his value. If it was just about winning then he would be with a better team that needs the depth but those orgs wouldn't have been able to promise him the type of role he wants in an attempt to rebuild his value...

 

[ReddestRum]

I'm only going to compare to Hughes and Tim since they are the #1 pick the year before Laf and the #3 pick in Lafs draft. For discussion sake lets forget about stats. That is a big break for Laf. No stats of any kind so we do not know how many goals or points any of these 3 players have put up. If you are a hockey scout and you watch Huges, Laf, and Tim on the ice at the same time. Do you think all 3 players look to be the same ability level? Do you view their skating, puckhandling, shooting, vision, passing at the same level? Do you really believe the main significant difference is playing more on the PP?

There would be a serious battle of youngsters that you'd want quarterbacking your PP and Laf would never, ever, in a million years come up in that discussion. People that want Laf on the PP want it just for stat boosts, and not because he's be a legitimate PP threat. If he touches the puck (as he's gotten more secondary assists than primary last season), he gets a point and that's all that matters to some people. Whereas, with actual young stars, you talk about their points and the skill they have getting those points. Leaders.

 

[bleedblue94]

I still think he'll be on the third line and not with Kreider and showed my lines.

Kreider / Zib / Kakko
Panarin / Chytil / Lafreniere
Cuylle / Trocheck / Wheeler
Goodrow / Bonino / Vesey

If Lafreniere isn't moved to RW in the top 6 then Wheeler will be on the 2nd line. Who's your better option there other than an experiment with Lafreniere?

Maybe Kane makes things interesting at some point.

I don't see what other options the Rangers have/had given their cap space.

And I'm going to put less stock in this years playoff performance than you because I watch sports to be an optimist and, honestly, in almost 50 years of watching playoff hockey this year's turd was the hardest to watch.

That being said, Tampa got smoked in 4 games by Columbus and that didn't exactly offer up a whole lot of hope for the following season and look what happened there.

People keep bringing up Tampa losing in 4 to the blue jackets and always leave out their were the best team in the league that year that then fell in their face and learned. That was the start of it for them. Nyr went to conference finals and then fell on their face the next year with a mediocre reg season. I don't see the two comparable at all.

 

[NickyFotiu]

There would be a serious battle of youngsters that you'd want quarterbacking your PP and Laf would never, ever, in a million years come up in that discussion. People that want Laf on the PP want it just for stat boosts, and not because he's be a legitimate PP threat. If he touches the puck (as he's gotten more secondary assists than primary last season), he gets a point and that's all that matters to some people. Whereas, with actual young stars, you talk about their points and the skill they have getting those points. Leaders.

Bottom line for Laf is he has to show more. If he shows more he will play more including on the PP. He will be given some chances but he has to step up. Show more. Dominate shifts in minutes 1-10 before worrying about minutes 16 and 17.

 

[bleedblue94]

Yeah, I agree.

I hate to say it but signing all these older vets, even to one year deals that aren't Dark-Age Rangers handing out long term contracts to 30 year olds.....

.... it reeks of acknowledgement that the team isn't deep enough or talented enough to be on the top tier with the true contenders. This seems like trying to keep a playoff team afloat more than moves to steer them into contention.

Exactly, and to take it to another level it's more so a demonstration of how poor the organization has developed players and depth. If they had been doing it appropriately since the letter they would have a pipeline of young forwards ready to come in and fill these spots rather than feeling the need to constantly go out and just give them to vets since they don't actually have any depth in this organization. It's actually astounding that they were able to completely tear everything down, acquire all those pics, and advocate to the fan base to give them time to build this up properly and then completely bought fumble the whole situation so that we're basically back to exactly what we were prior to the letter.