Player Discussion Alexis Lafrenière

[NickyFotiu]

I didn't say they hit their peaks right away. I said every one except Laf/Hughes performed at a 1st or 2nd line level immediately. It's year two now. Lafreniere still isn't. Hughes didn't in year two either (he now is).

It is very disingenuous to say people should have more realistic expectations. Realistic expectations should have been 1st or 2nd line level performance. That's what their peers did. Even guys that weren't considered great number one picks like RNH and Hischier did that. Maybe the raw numbers would be lower due to PP time and such, and that's fine, but the rates have not been there and are being propped up by 20% shooting as well.

We all hope for better but we cant say we expect 50-70 points just because a guy was #1. That is not how the world works. Some draft years are better than others. Some draft choices mature quicker than others. We drafted the consensus #1 guy. We cant say because we drafted him #1 that he has to be a McDavid. All we can do is make the best draft choice possible. There is nobody in the last 3 drafts that has been a McDavid or Mathews level player. What could we do? Say no we dont want the #1 pick unless it is guaranteed to be a star at 19? I would love for Laf or Kakko to look amazing. To be 30 goal or 70 point guys. They are not at this time. It is not the fans faulty. Its not the teams fault. Its just what was available in our 2 years.

 

[LORDE]

There's a faction of people on here that just don't want to admit the kid isn't as advertised. Not even close. He was never going to be generational... no one said that.

Folks can dance around it and maybe to an extent, there's a bit of 'ignorance is bliss' there.

But anyone who trusts their own eyes plainly sees the kid has a LONG way to go to get anywhere near a 2nd line let alone a 1st line player.

 

[DanielBrassard]

Staying in the lineup is part of being an NHLer. Durability matters, not getting sat games matters. Unless the team/league isn't playing due to a pandemic or lockout/strike, I don't give a shit about pace. Isn't this one of the reasons the Buch trade was so bad? Blais missing games? If you aren't in the games you are useless in those games.

I didn't say pace, I said rates. Do you not understand the difference? Meaning in the time he has played, divided by 60 minutes, this is what they are producing. It was a small reason, the Buch trade was so bad was because the value they got back sucked. Sammy Blais isn't valuable and a 2nd round pick isn't all that valuable. Part of the reason Blais isn't valuable is his inability to stay healthy, but really he's just not that good. That's why the trade was bad

 

[Anthony5967]

no patience. None. So sick of reading the same paranoid posts. The TEAM, TEAM has 38 wins. Would you rather watch one player pull pond hockey moves and celebrate his individual numbers or would you rather the team win 50 games a year after they didn’t qualify for the playoffs and potentially win a round or two? Id rather my guy get experience playing down the stretch with good players and winning games and playing a complete game. Lafreniere would be 1LW on Anaheim. That team is putrid.

 

[SA16]

We all hope for better but we cant say we expect 50-70 points just because a guy was #1. That is not how the world works. Some draft years are better than others. Some draft choices mature quicker than others. We drafted the consensus #1 guy. We cant say because we drafted him #1 that he has to be a McDavid. All we can do is make the best draft choice possible. There is nobody in the last 3 drafts that has been a McDavid or Mathews level player. What could we do? Say no we dont want the #1 pick unless it is guaranteed to be a star at 19? I would love for Laf or Kakko to look amazing. To be 30 goal or 70 point guys. They are not at this time. It is not the fans faulty. Its not the teams fault. Its just what was available in our 2 years.

We should expect him to perform in line with his peers and not try to rationalize things when he doesn't.

 

[NickyFotiu]

There's a faction of people on here that just don't want to admit the kid isn't as advertised. Not even close. He was never going to be generational... no one said that.

Folks can dance around it and maybe to an extent, there's a bit of 'ignorance is bliss' there.

But anyone who trusts their own eyes plainly sees the kid has a LONG way to go to get anywhere near a 2nd line let alone a 1st line player.

On the night we won the #1 pick the NHL talking head said we could write him in for 70 points as a rookie. Looking at his skating I had my doubts but figured the NHL talking head knew much better than I did. So in that way he has been a disappointment but what can you do? Nobody from his draft class has been great. This board begged for a rebuild. They begged for it. So we drafted a bunch of guys. Now we have to be patient and realize that the draft is a lottery. Nobody is guaranteed to be great.

 

[DanielBrassard]

no patience. None. So sick of reading the same paranoid posts. The TEAM, TEAM has 38 wins. Would you rather watch one player pull pond hockey moves and celebrate his individual numbers or would you rather the team win 50 games a year after they didn’t qualify for the playoffs and potentially win a round or two? Id rather my guy get experience playing down the stretch with good players and winning games and playing a complete game. Lafreniere would be 1LW on Anaheim. That team is putrid.

I'd rather Lafreniere look like a #1 pick and the Rangers win, the two are not incompatible with each other. How about that? Why do you have such low expectations for a #1 overall pick? Is this what you were expecting when the Rangers won the lottery? I highly doubt that to be the case.

 

[LORDE]

no patience. None. So sick of reading the same paranoid posts. The TEAM, TEAM has 38 wins. Would you rather watch one player pull pond hockey moves and celebrate his individual numbers or would you rather the team win 50 games a year after they didn’t qualify for the playoffs and potentially win a round or two? Id rather my guy get experience playing down the stretch with good players and winning games and playing a complete game. Lafreniere would be 1LW on Anaheim. That team is putrid.

The same team that we blew 2 leads to literally less than 48 hours ago? The same team that has lost 20 times in OT/shootouts?

Many TEAMS don't have our record, because they don't have Shesty.

Again, people like me don't want to see pond hockey from Lafreniere or Kakko (when he's back)

What we WANT is to see some, f*** ANY semblance of talent flashes, ability, or serious progression... & we haven't.

 

[NickyFotiu]

We should expect him to perform in line with his peers and not try to rationalize things when he doesn't.

That is not how the real world works. Guys do not play based on what we hope or expect. They play based on their own ability. If Laf was not hustling I would be bashing him but what exactly do you want us as fans or the team to do? He is giving the effort. If you expected McDavid or Mathews than I'm sorry to say he will not be that. Hopefully he will continue to get better and become an all star one day but there is no guarantee. That is the risk when you give away guys like McD, Zooks, and JT Miller in the hope you will get great draft picks.

 

[NickyFotiu]

There's a faction of people on here that just don't want to admit the kid isn't as advertised. Not even close. He was never going to be generational... no one said that.

Folks can dance around it and maybe to an extent, there's a bit of 'ignorance is bliss' there.

But anyone who trusts their own eyes plainly sees the kid has a LONG way to go to get anywhere near a 2nd line let alone a 1st line player.

I did not think he would based on what I saw in clips BUT what can we do? He was the consensus #1 pick. We picked the guy we were expected to pick. Some years you get a Crosby at #1. Some years you do not.

 

[bhamill]

I didn't say pace, I said rates. Do you not understand the difference? Meaning in the time he has played, divided by 60 minutes, this is what they are producing. It was a small reason, the Buch trade was so bad was because the value they got back sucked. Sammy Blais isn't valuable and a 2nd round pick isn't all that valuable. Part of the reason Blais isn't valuable is his inability to stay healthy, but really he's just not that good. That's why the trade was bad

Holy shit. You are really doing contortions to try to raise Cole's level (or lower Laf's I guess).
Let me summarize: Caufield doesn't play as many games as Laf, he scores about the same RATE as Lafreniere, his shooting percentage isn't as good as Laf's, While Laf isn't good defensively or have much of an edge, Cole is worse in both categories. Conclusion: Laf isn't as good a player as Caufield.
And so you agree durability matters. That's nice.

 

[DanielBrassard]

Holy shit. You are really doing contortions to try to raise Cole's level (or lower Laf's I guess).
Let me summarize: Caufield doesn't play as many games as Laf, he scores about the same RATE as Lafreniere, his shooting percentage isn't as good as Laf's, While Laf isn't good defensively or have much of an edge, Cole is worse in both categories. Conclusion: Laf isn't as good a player as Caufield.
And so you agree durability matters. That's nice.

I'm not trying to "raise" or "lower" anyone's level, I'm laying out the data. it's pretty simple to understand. If anyone is trying to rationalize someone's performance to make it seem better than it is, it's been you doing so for Lafreniere. Also for all of the defense and edge you keep portraying Laf as having over Caufield, it's not really helping his on-ice results. So yeah he's doing a great job. Of course durability plays a role. But Caufield didn't miss those games because of injury, he was sent to the minors because he wasn't playing well at the time. If Lafreniere wasn't a #1 overall pick the same thing probably would have happened to him as well.

 

[TheDirtyH]

We should expect him to perform in line with his peers and not try to rationalize things when he doesn't.

"All similarities are accidental, all comparisons are superficial and thereby misleading."

 

[bhamill]

I'm not trying to "raise" or "lower" anyone's level, I'm laying out the data. it's pretty simple to understand. If anyone is trying to rationalize someone's performance to make it seem better than it is, it's been you doing so for Lafreniere. Also for all of the defense and edge you keep portraying Laf as having over Caufield, it's not really helping his on-ice results. So yeah he's doing a great job. Of course durability plays a role. But Caufield didn't miss those games because of injury, he was sent to the minors because he wasn't playing well at the time. If Lafreniere wasn't a #1 overall pick the same thing probably would have happened to him as well.

Actually Caufield also missed a week with an upper body injury if I remember correctly. And in fairness Laf wasn't eligible to be sent to the AHL for poor play, which still doesn't mean he would have been. I'm of the opinion that a 200 ft game and edge are still helpful to a player's game, and moreover the TEAM, even though they may not help the offensive stat line. Call me crazy.
Honestly I LIKE Caufield too, so I'm not enjoying this conversation. Hahaha. I'll just end my part in it by saying I would ABSOLUTELY NOT trade Lafreniere for Caufield. I can't speak for you but I think that is a really bad trade. Hahaha. I'll leave it at that buddy. Thanks for the back and forth, I appreciate when we can disagree like adults.

 

[DanielBrassard]

Actually Caufield also missed a week with an upper body injury if I remember correctly. And in fairness Laf wasn't eligible to be sent to the AHL for poor play, which still doesn't mean he would have been. I'm of the opinion that a 200 ft game and edge are still helpful to a player's game, and moreover the TEAM, even though they may not help the offensive stat line. Call me crazy.
Honestly I LIKE Caufield too, so I'm not enjoying this conversation. Hahaha. I'll just end my part in it by saying I would ABSOLUTELY NOT trade Lafreniere for Caufield. I can't speak for you but I think that is a really bad trade. Hahaha. I'll leave it at that buddy. Thanks for the back and forth, I appreciate when we can disagree like adults.

That's why we are here ,to have discussions even if they get a bit heated lol. Same to you man, and hope there's no hard feelings.

 

[bhamill]

That's why we are here ,to have discussions even if they get a bit heated lol. Same to you man, and hope there's no hard feelings.

Oh absolutely not. I get the feeling neither of us is exactly a fragile china doll. hahaha.

 

[SA16]

That is not how the real world works. Guys do not play based on what we hope or expect. They play based on their own ability. If Laf was not hustling I would be bashing him but what exactly do you want us as fans or the team to do? He is giving the effort. If you expected McDavid or Mathews than I'm sorry to say he will not be that. Hopefully he will continue to get better and become an all star one day but there is no guarantee. That is the risk when you give away guys like McD, Zooks, and JT Miller in the hope you will get great draft picks.

If your expectations were for him to come in and perform as the worst #1 pick forward in his rookie year since 2004 then your expectations were too low.

 

[bhamill]

If your expectations were for him to come in and perform as the worst #1 pick forward in his rookie year since 2004 then your expectations were too low.

Okay. now this is funny.

 

[TheDirtyH]

If your expectations were for him to come in and perform as the worst #1 pick forward in his rookie year since 2004 then your expectations were too low.

You don't think Hughes was worse?

 

[NickyFotiu]

If your expectations were for him to come in and perform as the worst #1 pick forward in his rookie year since 2004 then your expectations were too low.

I was not overwhelmed watching clips but I assumed I was wrong based on how people were raving about him. What difference does it make what fan's expectations were? The Yankees hoped Ed Whitson would be a star pitcher if they gave him large FA money but he was still Ed Whitson. What exactly do you want? Should we have declined the #1 pick? Should we have drafted someone other than the consensus #1 pick? Should we be blamed as fans because he is not like a Crosby?

 

[SA16]

You don't think Hughes was worse?

Ok, one of the two worst. Does it make a difference? Those two performed far far worse than any other #1 in their first year.

I was not overwhelmed watching clips but I assumed I was wrong based on how people were raving about him. What difference does it make what fan's expectations were? The Yankees hoped Ed Whitson would be a star pitcher if they gave him large FA money but he was still Ed Whitson. What exactly do you want? Should we have declined the #1 pick? Should we have drafted someone other than the consensus #1 pick? Should we be blamed as fans because he is not like a Crosby?

It doesn't make a difference. What we shouldn't be doing is preaching patience and saying how it's a process. We shouldn't be saying we expected him to start slow and take a few years. We shouldn't be using the lack of games due to COVID as an excuse when it hasn't been a problem for other guys in his draft class. We shouldn't be twisting the data to show he's actual the leading 5v5 goal scorer among these guys and ignoring he's doing it with low volume and 20% shooting. We shouldn't be discussing his goal scoring numbers to make ourselves believe he has been better when up until recently he just hasn't been noticeable on the ice. Guys in his position are expected to come in and produce right away. He was not seen as one of the lesser #1 picks at the time of the draft. That is how almost all of them do it. We should be hoping he gets better and becomes an impact player in the future without lying to ourselves and acting like he's been good so far in his career or like the expectations should be set insanely low.

 

[NickyFotiu]

Ok, one of the two worst. Does it make a difference? Those two performed far far worse than any other #1 in their first year.



It doesn't make a difference. What we shouldn't be doing is preaching patience and saying how it's a process. We shouldn't be saying we expected him to start slow and take a few years. We shouldn't be using the lack of games due to COVID as an excuse when it hasn't been a problem for other guys in his draft class. We shouldn't be twisting the data to show he's actual the leading 5v5 goal scorer among these guys and ignoring he's doing it with low volume and 20% shooting. We shouldn't be discussing his goal scoring numbers to make ourselves believe he has been better when up until recently he just hasn't been noticeable on the ice. Guys in his position are expected to come in and produce right away. He was not seen as one of the lesser #1 picks at the time of the draft. That is how almost all of them do it. We should be hoping he gets better and becomes an impact player in the future without lying to ourselves and acting like he's been good so far in his career or like the expectations should be set insanely low.

I agree we should not cherry pick stats to make ourselves feel better.

I agree we should not lie to ourselves or make excuses.

I disagree about patience. Some guys mature at different stages than others. I could want water to boil in 10 seconds but that doesn't mean it will.

We cant say he was the #1 pick so he should be as good as other years #1 picks. That is not realistic. Some draft years are better than others. Sometimes a star player is not available. We can't stomp our feet and say he was the #1 pick so he must be great. The world does not work that way. That goes in all sports. Some years there are 3 hall of fame QBs in the first round. Some years there are none.

 

[Adam Fox Time]

Laf got a PP assist!

 

[ORRFForever]

Laf got a PP assist!

WEW HEW !!!!!!!!

Time on the PP can make all the difference on the stats line.

 

[Rangers in 7]

WEW HEW !!!!!!!!

Time on the PP can make all the difference on the stats line.

No no no he’s supposed to put up 75 even strength points