Player Discussion Alexis Lafrenière

[NickyFotiu]

You guys ever sit and wait for a pot to boil water? Or paint dry? This kid is probably 4-5 years away from his peak. Grab a snickers.

 

[EdJovanovski]

I just don’t get it with this kid. Kakko’s slow start is frustrating but understandable. Kakko never really stood out as a particularly skillful player in his draft year, he was just a guy as was insanely productive and seemed to have some sort of competitive “it factor” that made him stand out against his peers.

This was not the case for Laf. He was clearly the best player in that draft year, and looked every bit the part every time you watched him play. The skill, the snarl, the compete - all there.

He has at least now flashed those things in the NHL. We need to hope the consistency follows, sooner rather than later.

I don’t know about that, I think they’re pretty similar players who were both more then the sum of their parts. Weren’t they both compared to the same player on the draft broadcast? (Huberdeau) I’d argue Kakko was actually the player with a more stand out skill (his puck control). People would compare him to Forsberg & Jagr the way he held the puck and was impossible to knock off of it.

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

I don’t know about that, I think they’re pretty similar players who were both more then the sum of their parts. Weren’t they both compared to the same player on the draft broadcast? (Huberdeau) I’d argue Kakko was actually the player with a more stand out skill (his puck control). People would compare him to Forsberg & Jagr the way he held the puck and was impossible to knock off of it.

Laf's scouting report was that his skill was S tier. Made up for his lack of elite speed. And watching his tape, he showed the skill, vision, great shot, and competitiveness constantly. Idk wtf happened to him. With Kakko its clear, he just isn't a good skater. Laf can skate fine.

 

[Synergy27]

I don’t know about that, I think they’re pretty similar players who were both more then the sum of their parts. Weren’t they both compared to the same player on the draft broadcast? (Huberdeau) I’d argue Kakko was actually the player with a more stand out skill (his puck control). People would compare him to Forsberg & Jagr the way he held the puck and was impossible to knock off of it.

Yeah, you might be right. Maybe just recently bias clouding my judgment. Look at Kakko in this video, much of it against Ryan Suter:



Where is that confidence? Maybe he’s just a big ice player?

 

[IDvsEGO]

Laf's scouting report was that his skill was S tier. Made up for his lack of elite speed. And watching his tape, he showed the skill, vision, great shot, and competitiveness constantly. Idk wtf happened to him. With Kakko its clear, he just isn't a good skater. Laf can skate fine.

and round and round we go on this. Kakko has excellent edges. He lacks the speed and explosiveness we'd like, and probably a hair too slow.
But Kakko's edges are actually elite, the way he gains speed while turning without crossing over. Thats not common, nor is it something most defensemen can match.
Laf has above average skating, and his top end is actually fairly quick, he just lacks the same burst as someone like mackinnon or mcdavid.

 

[mas0764]

Yeah, you might be right. Maybe just recently bias clouding my judgment. Look at Kakko in this video, much of it against Ryan Suter:



Where is that confidence? Maybe he’s just a big ice player?

It has to be coming.

 

[ReddestRum]

You guys ever sit and wait for a pot to boil water? Or paint dry? This kid is probably 4-5 years away from his peak. Grab a snickers.

Okay. 5 years from now, as a team, where are the Rangers?

 

[LORDE]

You guys ever sit and wait for a pot to boil water? Or paint dry? This kid is probably 4-5 years away from his peak. Grab a snickers.

Yup. 4-5 yrs Bread still even playing? Shesty is paid what? Kreider, Zbad, Trouba...

I have been saying forever that this team isn't built for a "prime"

The timeline is way off.

AND this is me saying he could be something in 4-5 years OTHER than a 3rd line tweener which he isn't and won't be.

This rebuild is failing BECAUSE he is 4-5 yrs away like Kakko and even then what they bring won't be enough

 

[Matt Rentfree]

You guys ever sit and wait for a pot to boil water? Or paint dry? This kid is probably 4-5 years away from his peak. Grab a snickers.

I'll grab some good Belgian chocolate, thank you very much. none of that mass produced Snickers crap.

 

[bondra]

I just don’t get it with this kid. Kakko’s slow start is frustrating but understandable. Kakko never really stood out as a particularly skillful player in his draft year, he was just a guy as was insanely productive and seemed to have some sort of competitive “it factor” that made him stand out against his peers.

This was not the case for Laf. He was clearly the best player in that draft year, and looked every bit the part every time you watched him play. The skill, the snarl, the compete - all there.

He has at least now flashed those things in the NHL. We need to hope the consistency follows, sooner rather than later.

Kakko is one of the best posession players who I have seen at that age and I still think he will be among the few Finns who can drive his own line.

Laf other hand is kind of meh, his not bad at anything like Kakko at shooting but he is not great at anything either, that worries me little bit.

Hard to say who will be the better player of these 2 but I think Kakko will breakout sooner. In future Kakko will feed and Laf will score, both will have 80-90 point seasons. Make it happen!

 

[HaveKnifeWillButcher]

I'll grab some good Belgian chocolate, thank you very much. none of that mass produced Snickers crap.

The Belgians make chocolate just for you?

 

[NickyFotiu]

I'll grab some good Belgian chocolate, thank you very much. none of that mass produced Snickers crap.

I'm low maintenance and there are no commercials saying better grab a Belgian chocolate lol.

 

[NickyFotiu]

Yup. 4-5 yrs Bread still even playing? Shesty is paid what? Kreider, Zbad, Trouba...

I have been saying forever that this team isn't built for a "prime"

The timeline is way off.

AND this is me saying he could be something in 4-5 years OTHER than a 3rd line tweener which he isn't and won't be.

This rebuild is failing BECAUSE he is 4-5 yrs away like Kakko and even then what they bring won't be enough

Bread is likely gone in 5 years. Kreider, Zbad and Trouba as well. Lafs peak in 4-5 years does not mean he can not get better during the journey and we can improve in other ways as well. We could win BEFORE Lafs peak.

 

[NickyFotiu]

Okay. 5 years from now, as a team, where are the Rangers?

That is easy. They are in NY.

 

[bhamill]

Caufield has scored at the same rate as Lafreniere at 5v5 except his SH% is 1/3 of Lafreniere's but his shot rate is almost double. Plus their playdriving numbers are almost identical. But yeah Lafreniere is a much better player just because.

Lafreniere has more even strength goals than Caufield and equal even strength points to Caufield. He also plays a 200 foot game with an edge. He's not a black hole defensively. You really trying to say Caufield is a better scorer because his shooting percentage is a third of Lafreniere's? Caufield is flashier at this point and that is about it.
There's no GM in this league that would make a Lafreniere for Caufield trade at this point... except Montreal's. In a half a heartbeat.

 

[NickyFotiu]

I wish people would be more realistic.

We had people saying for years they want to build through the draft. To give prospects a chance to play. Well this is what that looks like in general. Most prospects are not McDavid. They take years to develop. They are not going to hit their peaks till 24-26.

On the other hand we also have to be honest. None of us was hoping for 30 point players with the #1 and #2 draft choices. Chytil has also been disappointing at times production wise. Krav is no where to be found. 2 years of hype for Lunkvist seems to have died down a bit. Some of the highest hope prospect wise right now is for Brennan Othman.

 

[LORDE]

I wish people would be more realistic.

We had people saying for years they want to build through the draft. To give prospects a chance to play. Well this is what that looks like in general. Most prospects are not McDavid. They take years to develop. They are not going to hit their peaks till 24-26.

On the other hand we also have to be honest. None of us was hoping for 30 point players with the #1 and #2 draft choices. Chytil has also been disappointing at times production wise. Krav is no where to be found. 2 years of hype for Lunkvist seems to have died down a bit. Some of the highest hope prospect wise right now is for Brennan Othman.

This is kinda the point... we finally win 2 lotteries and we have very little to show for it when we need it most. Bread isn't going to be here in 5 yrs as you said... Trouba, Kreider, nope. Fox is ready... Shesty is ready and many other players are (Goodrow, maybe even Strome) but the kids on ELCs we need aren't nearly ready.

It's pretty sad. Everyone talks about having a long window or even two smaller windows... I see zero windows and more of a Hank-esque "window" where we may get close but not all the way and it's because the timing won't ever work out IF, and that's a BIG IF, the kids get close to their ceilings.

 

[HockeyBasedNYC]

Yeah, you might be right. Maybe just recently bias clouding my judgment. Look at Kakko in this video, much of it against Ryan Suter:



Where is that confidence? Maybe he’s just a big ice player?

Who wouldnt draft that kid at #2?! - the way he played in that tournament. I mean I was f***ing beside myself when the Rangers landed at 2.

Then we saw him do that ring around the rosy play in the prospects tournament and I was like oh yeah baby. We got a stud here.

He's had little flashes but the confidence we saw during those world games and with TPS is just not the same. Even the way he spoke in the interview.

 

[NickyFotiu]

This is kinda the point... we finally win 2 lotteries and we have very little to show for it when we need it most. Bread isn't going to be here in 5 yrs as you said... Trouba, Kreider, nope. Fox is ready... Shesty is ready and many other players are (Goodrow, maybe even Strome) but the kids on ELCs we need aren't nearly ready.

It's pretty sad. Everyone talks about having a long window or even two smaller windows... I see zero windows and more of a Hank-esque "window" where we may get close but not all the way and it's because the timing won't ever work out IF, and that's a BIG IF, the kids get close to their ceilings.

The hope is that the team can win before the kids hit their peaks. That the kids can contribute to those wins before their peaks. Will it happen? I have no idea. I do know we literally gave away Zooks, McD, and JT Miller so I hope we get some sort of reward for doing that.

 

[SA16]

I wish people would be more realistic.

We had people saying for years they want to build through the draft. To give prospects a chance to play. Well this is what that looks like in general. Most prospects are not McDavid. They take years to develop. They are not going to hit their peaks till 24-26.

On the other hand we also have to be honest. None of us was hoping for 30 point players with the #1 and #2 draft choices. Chytil has also been disappointing at times production wise. Krav is no where to be found. 2 years of hype for Lunkvist seems to have died down a bit. Some of the highest hope prospect wise right now is for Brennan Othman.

This is not true for number 1 picks.

Hughes - 21 points in 61 games (bad)
Hischier - 52 points in 82 games when he was not considered a good #1 pick option
Matthews - 69 points in 82 games
McDavid - 48 points in 45 games
MacKinnon - 63 points in 82 games
Yakupov - 31 points in 48 games
RNH - 52 points in 62 games
Hall - 42 points in 65 games
Tavares - 54 points in 82 games
Stamkos - 46 points in 79 games (with a slow start under Melrose)
Kane - 72 points in 82 games
Crosby - 102 points in 81 games
Ovechkin - 106 points in 81 games

That's every forward taken #1 since the lockout. Hughes and Laf are the only ones who did not produce at a 1st/2nd line level in their rookie years.

 

[NickyFotiu]

This is not true for number 1 picks.

Hughes - 21 points in 61 games (bad)
Hischier - 52 points in 82 games when he was not considered a good #1 pick option
Matthews - 69 points in 82 games
McDavid - 48 points in 45 games
MacKinnon - 63 points in 82 games
Yakupov - 31 points in 48 games
RNH - 52 points in 62 games
Hall - 42 points in 65 games
Tavares - 54 points in 82 games
Stamkos - 46 points in 79 games (with a slow start under Melrose)
Kane - 72 points in 82 games
Crosby - 102 points in 81 games
Ovechkin - 106 points in 81 games

That's every forward taken #1 since the lockout. Hughes and Laf are the only ones who did not produce at a 1st/2nd line level in their rookie years.

All the #1 pick means is that you were rated highest in that years draft class. It does not guarantee any production. If you want to call it a bad draft class that is fine but Laf was the overwhelming consensus as the #1 pick of that bad draft class. The #1 picks you posted did not hit their peaks at 19-20 years old. You can argue they produced more than Laf but you can not say that their peaks were usually at 19-20.

 

[SA16]

All the #1 pick means is that you were rated highest in that years draft class. It does not guarantee any production. If you want to call it a bad draft class that is fine but Laf was the overwhelming consensus as the #1 pick of that bad draft class. The #1 picks you posted did not hit their peaks at 19-20 years old. You can argue they produced more than Laf but you can not say that their peaks were usually at 19-20.

I didn't say they hit their peaks right away. I said every one except Laf/Hughes performed at a 1st or 2nd line level immediately. It's year two now. Lafreniere still isn't. Hughes didn't in year two either (he now is).

It is very disingenuous to say people should have more realistic expectations. Realistic expectations should have been 1st or 2nd line level performance. That's what their peers did. Even guys that weren't considered great number one picks like RNH and Hischier did that. Maybe the raw numbers would be lower due to PP time and such, and that's fine, but the rates have not been there and are being propped up by 20% shooting as well.

 

[DanielBrassard]

Lafreniere has more even strength goals than Caufield and equal even strength points to Caufield. He also plays a 200 foot game with an edge. He's not a black hole defensively. You really trying to say Caufield is a better scorer because his shooting percentage is a third of Lafreniere's? Caufield is flashier at this point and that is about it.
There's no GM in this league that would make a Lafreniere for Caufield trade at this point... except Montreal's. In a half a heartbeat.

He's also played 13 more games than Caufield, that's why you use rates instead of raw point totals. Also LOL at he plays a 200 foot game, he's not good defensively and yeah he throws hits but that's about all the edge to his game there is right now. He doesn't win puck battles, he's not a good forechecker, which is where playing with an edge actually matters. I'm saying Caufield generates more offense than Lafreniere, and even with his SH% being 1/3 of Lafreniere's, he's just as productive. Also that's just conjecture, you have no idea what GM's would do.

 

[bhamill]

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say Lafreniere has a better NHL career than Yakupov. Hahahaha.
A hockey player's first couple of years do not define their career. Not even for 1OA picks.
You want to say Laf's been disappointing to you as a 1OA pick, that's fair. To say at 115 games or so in that he is a bust or a career bottom 9 player is pure opinion. You're entitled to it, but I'm entitled to say I disagree wholeheartedly. Hahaha. Lets see where we are when these players from the 2020 and 2021 drafts hit age 22 or so. Until then I'm going to (hopefully) enjoy watching them develop. Whoever wants to wallow in despair is free to do so, just don't expect there won't be people who don't.

 

[bhamill]

He's also played 13 more games than Caufield, that's why you use rates instead of raw point totals. Also LOL at he plays a 200 foot game, he's not good defensively and yeah he throws hits but that's about all the edge to his game there is right now. He doesn't win puck battles, he's not a good forechecker, which is where playing with an edge actually matters. I'm saying Caufield generates more offense than Lafreniere, and even with his SH% being 1/3 of Lafreniere's, he's just as productive. Also that's just conjecture, you have no idea what GM's would do.

Staying in the lineup is part of being an NHLer. Durability matters, not getting sat games matters. Unless the team/league isn't playing due to a pandemic or lockout/strike, I don't give a shit about pace. Isn't this one of the reasons the Buch trade was so bad? Blais missing games? If you aren't in the games you are useless in those games.
Also, next to Caufield he's a Selke level defensive player. Hahaha. And has Ryan Reaves level edge. Twice as a young player he's dropped his gloves to go after a vet that has taken a shot at a teammate. That is not in Caufield's game from anything I've seen. And I don't even want to run Caufield down, I like him. But NO WAY is anyone thinking Laf for Caufield is a good trade except Montreal. Hahahaha.