Player Discussion Alexis Lafrenière

[TopShelfSnipes]

yea it's incredibly frustrating and it starts with getting out of their own end clean with numbers. like how many times this season did the weak side wing creep down towards the dot or inside hash to support coverage only to have a dman or the c find the puck and whip it up their wall forcing the wing to stop and turn to race for the wall where the best they could hope for was getting a stick on it to try at best chip it to the neutral zone, or more often get pinched and have their momentum take them out of the play. the breakouts have everything thrown off already and there's never any coordination whether its offense off a dump in or carrying across the blue line.

the whole team is just generally bad at puck support, there's rarely outlets or stretch passes, and other than laf and panarin no one can handle a hard pass in stride. i've said it for years now, they need at least one speed demon forechecking/backchecking menace added. they're not a slow team, but they aren't a high pace team, and i think the pace needs to be upped by the next coach to get more puck pressure. but even with that they need at least one hagelin/motte/oconnor type added to the lineup and that's assuming we keep motte. if by some miracle we could source a higher skilled, high motor guy i'd be thrilled, but at a minumum we need another guy like that in the lineup to help open up ice.

100%. And this is why Gerard Gallant deserved to be fired. Because that's coaching and systems, not players.

 

[Vitto79]

play RW till he figure it out in the top 6

 

[duhmetreE]

Prophecy.

 

[mas0764]

In watching that scouting report and comparing it most of what I remember of Laf's play, it seems he's playing a very similar game stylistically, except in the NHL everyone is bigger and faster.

6-1 190 is pretty solid and you can see that guys struggle to contain him in the vid, in the NHL he's getting knocked off the puck or caught up along the walls. He gets to the soft spots for shots around the net, but NHL defenders just push him away

He sees and finds the open ice and gets passes through, but at the NHL level either those lanes don't exist and he's having to force them through defenders, or he doesn't make the pass hard enough and it gets picked off/deflected.

His shot is good, but it doesn't come off his stick all that quickly (in terms of time, not velocity) so at the next level either a defender or the goalie is getting in the way.

Obviously the expectation was that all those traits would transfer over and he'd continue to improve them, but it hasn't really happened yet.
I'd say he'd really want to work on his skating before getting much bigger, which means he really needs to work on getting his shots and passes off quicker, with greater velocity

Interestingly enough the scouting report says the best thing about his shot was it's quick release.

So again I have to believe he's overthinking at this level.

Prophecy.

From your lips to God's ears.

 

[TopShelfSnipes]

Interestingly enough the scouting report says the best thing about his shot was it's quick release.

So again I have to believe he's overthinking at this level.

If you look at Laf's play in the NHL, he rarely quick releases. He sets his feet and goes for the full body wrist shot most times. That's what makes his release "slow".
Even the goal he scored against Nashville where Zibanejad fed him at the side of the net (see link below) - he had to make a nice play to kick the puck to his stick, then he didn't just send it into the open net. He took a couple steps to pull the puck back, looked up to aim, then fired it into the open side. It very nearly almost cost him the chance to score. In a (better) future state, he'd take the puck off his skate and immediately send it into the net.

(Link since video doesn't appear to be working): https colon slash slash nhl.com/rangers/video/lafreniere-scores-goal/t-277437422/c-14134976


Like most players who come to the NHL he's got to work on quick snapping it while his feet are moving.

 

[Captain Monglobster]

Imagine the Rangers traded Kovalev before he turned into a superstar borderline hall of famer... oh wait.

Imagine the Rangers traded Doug Weight before he became a borderline hall of famer... oh snap.

Imagine the Rangers traded Marc Savard... woops.

Imagine trading Tony Amonte who scored 30+ eight times and 40+ three times... darn.

Imagine trading hall of famer Sergei Zubov because someone didn't like his face... yikes.

And we sit here demanding It-won't-ruin-my-weekend to trade Lafreniere, Kakko, Chytil, Schneider, and Miller before they reach their mid-20s... shit some of them are barely into their early 20s.

Ok... when does this ship sink from the holes it's taking? I need to find a raft.

The thought that scares me is that maybe those guys wouldve never reached their full potential if they werent traded.

 

[2014nyr]

100%. And this is why Gerard Gallant deserved to be fired. Because that's coaching and systems, not players.

i think ultimately, yea it's the right call. i would have considered keeping him if he brought in a guy who would be coaching systems basically kinda deal - because in fairness he did have consecutive 107+ point seasons with 1 conf finals appearance. by any objective measure that's a good couple of years. however, i think it's fair to say we were trending the wrong direction in several areas. while i don't place any blame on gallant for the less than ideal production from laf/kakko to date, i do think there are voices who can get more out of them both from playing more decisive having a structure and communicating with them.

i don't like that this came at least partially from exit meetings with players tho. they did this with quinn because he was a meanypants. now they complain about the players coach 2 years later. at some point these complainers need to start thinking maybe it's not the coach. maybe those 2 were justified, but if we go through a 3rd in short order...the needle starts to move towards the players.

i want brunette or leach and let them build a fast, aggressive, structured team...but man i'd love if somehow we could bring in keenan or some other psychopath to remind them things can get a lot worse if they start getting mouthy. call it an ebuc....but not for emergencies for laziness or refusing to play as part of the team. play a couple lifeless weeks? ok boys you earned a week with iron mike and practices that could possibly qualify as war crimes. they complain about the barker, they complain about the players coach...well have fun with the lunatic boys. i'd find it entertaining...give then some incentive to not suck. playing with the proverbial fire in your belly is a lot better than potentially a literal one....i mean mikes pretty old, who knows how crazy he might be?

 

[GENESISPuck94]

The thought that scares me is that maybe those guys wouldve never reached their full potential if they werent traded.

A lot of them were already on their way to that potential.

 

[Captain Monglobster]

A lot of them were already on their way to that potential.

No doubt. But they didnt reach it here, and no home grown forward has since then.

 

[JHS]

He’s a first overall playing like a physical 3rd, borderline 2nd, liner so he barely deserves a contract? That’s pretty insane. There’s zero logic there. You’re hung up on your disappointment in, and dislike of, the player because of where he was taken, and expect us to agree that he doesn’t deserve a contract? He absolutely deserves a contract. If he doesn’t then half the forwards in the league don’t. He’s disqualified because you (as well as most of us) are unsatisfied with his performance so far in relation to his draft position? Good gravy.
No one said this is all he wants. He hasn’t said this is all he wants. It’s pretty unusual for a 21 year old to be a finished product, so in all likelihood he WILL be more. The real question is “how much more.” It’s almost a lock that he’ll be a second liner, and, IMO, will likely be more than that.
He deserves a contract and he will likely be getting 2yrs at 2mil+.

Still waiting for the one skill or attribute he’s improved on. Still waiting for you to acknowledge that in the past 10 years of first overall picks he’s only the second to play so horrendously bad that he’s likely on his way to a bridge deal.

Getting a bridge deal as a top pick is the equivalent to not getting a contract from the sense of what that message shows about how the organization views this guy. There is no planet he gets even a contract offered to Taylor Hall 10 years ago when the cap was lower. It’s all right there to see, but I guess Laf will have 4 million dollars to rejoice over as opposed to the maybe 50 million he could have earned…

 

[JHS]

Imagine the Rangers traded Kovalev before he turned into a superstar borderline hall of famer... oh wait.

Imagine the Rangers traded Doug Weight before he became a borderline hall of famer... oh snap.

Imagine the Rangers traded Marc Savard... woops.

Imagine trading Tony Amonte who scored 30+ eight times and 40+ three times... darn.

Imagine trading hall of famer Sergei Zubov because someone didn't like his face... yikes.

And we sit here demanding It-won't-ruin-my-weekend to trade Lafreniere, Kakko, Chytil, Schneider, and Miller before they reach their mid-20s... shit some of them are barely into their early 20s.

Ok... when does this ship sink from the holes it's taking? I need to find a raft.

I’m sorry but this is some pretty wild revisionist history here that I’m not surprised has not been pointed out by anyone else. Amonte and Weight were clearly traded because the Rangers wanted to go all in and win the cup in 94. No one in 94 did not see their potential but the organization also( correctly) knew they wanted to try and get a cup while their main players were at their peak.

So those two should not be on your list.

Kovalev was a brutal move but was a causality of not meshing with the coaching staff. Again no one did not see his potential and in fact, you are not pointing out that he was already a extremely desired player who had developed pretty well under the Rangers tutelage.

Zubov was again brutal and I agree the worst move they made on on your list. The reason he is a poor example for you to use is because he had done most of his developing as a Ranger this invalidating the point you are trying to make about the Rangers organization being poor at developing players.

Neil Smith details main reason why Rangers traded Sergei Zubov - Forever Blueshirts

Neil Smith finally goes into detail on why he traded Sergei Zubov from the New York Rangers in 1995.

www.foreverblueshirts.com

Really good summary of what was going on when Zubov and Kovalev were being moved. Still makes no sense almost 30 years later but it’s a good read.

 

[GENESISPuck94]

I’m sorry but this is some pretty wild revisionist history here that I’m not surprised has not been pointed out by anyone else. Amonte and Weight were clearly traded because the Rangers wanted to go all in and win the cup in 94. No one in 94 did not see their potential but the organization also( correctly) knew they wanted to try and get a cup while their main players were at their peak.

So those two should not be on your list.

Kovalev was a brutal move but was a causality of not meshing with the coaching staff. Again no one did not see his potential and in fact, you are not pointing out that he was already a extremely desired player who had developed pretty well under the Rangers tutelage.

Zubov was again brutal and I agree the worst move they made on on your list. The reason he is a poor example for you to use is because he had done most of his developing as a Ranger this invalidating the point you are trying to make about the Rangers organization being poor at developing players.

Neil Smith details main reason why Rangers traded Sergei Zubov - Forever Blueshirts

Neil Smith finally goes into detail on why he traded Sergei Zubov from the New York Rangers in 1995.

www.foreverblueshirts.com

Really good summary of what was going on when Zubov and Kovalev were being moved. Still makes no sense almost 30 years later but it’s a good read.

That's exactly why Amonte and Weight should be on the list. They barely won with the aging vets they got in exchange. And the cupboard was completely emptied at that point. It forced the Rangers down the path that created the dark ages of missing the playoffs 7 straight seasons that required a salary cap to finally force them out of it.

 

[Synergy27]

That's exactly why Amonte and Weight should be on the list. They barely won with the aging vets they got in exchange. And the cupboard was completely emptied at that point. It forced the Rangers down the path that created the dark ages of missing the playoffs 7 straight seasons that required a salary cap to finally force them out of it.

If the Rangers didn’t win the Cup in 1994 the entire franchise would be unrecognizable today. The Dark Ages were worth that win. Amonte and Weight were very good players but sacrificing them to win that Cup was worth it yikes infinity.

 

[mas0764]

If you look at Laf's play in the NHL, he rarely quick releases. He sets his feet and goes for the full body wrist shot most times. That's what makes his release "slow".
Even the goal he scored against Nashville where Zibanejad fed him at the side of the net (see link below) - he had to make a nice play to kick the puck to his stick, then he didn't just send it into the open net. He took a couple steps to pull the puck back, looked up to aim, then fired it into the open side. It very nearly almost cost him the chance to score. In a (better) future state, he'd take the puck off his skate and immediately send it into the net.

(Link since video doesn't appear to be working): https colon slash slash nhl.com/rangers/video/lafreniere-scores-goal/t-277437422/c-14134976


Like most players who come to the NHL he's got to work on quick snapping it while his feet are moving.

It looks like part of the issue there is his trouble settling the pass as well. This is like basic shit. Someone who was a first overall pick shouldn't have problems receiving cross-ice passes.

I KNOW he has that ability. The fact that he's struggled with it tells me it's something else.

 

[TopShelfSnipes]

It looks like part of the issue there is his trouble settling the pass as well. This is like basic shit. Someone who was a first overall pick shouldn't have problems receiving cross-ice passes.

I KNOW he has that ability. The fact that he's struggled with it tells me it's something else.

It was a bad pass in his skates, but it was made through traffic. The proper play is to stop the puck with the skate and immediately snap it home.

Watch this one for comparison. Draisaitl has to settle the puck after it hits a stick. Watch how he settles the puck and just fires it - doesn't reset his feet, pull the puck back, or need to lean into it. Still gets plenty on it and snaps it home. Laf doesn't do this, but it's a skill that can be taught.



Draisaitl releases this puck in fully half the time Laf does in the two replays.

 

[mas0764]

It was a bad pass in his skates, but it was made through traffic. The proper play is to stop the puck with the skate and immediately snap it home.

Watch this one for comparison. Draisaitl has to settle the puck after it hits a stick. Watch how he settles the puck and just fires it - doesn't reset his feet, pull the puck back, or need to lean into it. Still gets plenty on it and snaps it home. Laf doesn't do this, but it's a skill that can be taught.



Draisaitl releases this puck in fully half the time Laf does in the two replays.

Yeah, but again, that's a mental thing. He doesn't know how to stop the puck with his skate and then fire a one timer? My 7 year old knows how to do that.

Frankly in watching that Laf highlight I think he's almost trying to decide whether to pass it again once the pass to him isn't received clean.

 

[ReddestRum]

TBF, in our Round 1 losses, most of the team couldn't handle passes. Pass bobbles have been a problem most of the year. Especially in big moments that could've been high chances.

If you want to see some hilarity, find a way to rewatch Avs/Kraken this year and then watch our games. I've never seen two teams know exactly where everyone is with their passes being hard and crisp.

 

[OthmannOut]

TBF, in our Round 1 losses, most of the team couldn't handle passes. Pass bobbles have been a problem most of the year. Especially in big moments that could've been high chances.

If you want to see some hilarity, find a way to rewatch Avs/Kraken this year and then watch our games. I've never seen two teams know exactly where everyone is with their passes being hard and crisp.

I wasn't able to see much Playoff hockey outside of the Rangers, but that Avs/Kraken series had some bangers.

 

[mas0764]

TBF, in our Round 1 losses, most of the team couldn't handle passes. Pass bobbles have been a problem most of the year. Especially in big moments that could've been high chances.

If you want to see some hilarity, find a way to rewatch Avs/Kraken this year and then watch our games. I've never seen two teams know exactly where everyone is with their passes being hard and crisp.

That's why I believe it's a system thing and that's one of the reasons why I believe we are getting pennies on the dollar from Kakko and Laf.

Of course being a rudderless ship affects kids more than vets.

 

[GENESISPuck94]

If the Rangers didn’t win the Cup in 1994 the entire franchise would be unrecognizable today. The Dark Ages were worth that win. Amonte and Weight were very good players but sacrificing them to win that Cup was worth it yikes infinity.

I believe they could have gotten it done eventually had they kept everyone. No way to know.

Point is not to make that mistake again. The margin for error is too thin to go all in on a short window. Build, and have sustained success and you get many chances to win it.

 

[GENESISPuck94]

No doubt. But they didnt reach it here, and no home grown forward has since then.

Yea and its pretty sad. Kreider I think is the only one.

 

[PANARIN BREAD FAN]

If the Rangers didn’t win the Cup in 1994 the entire franchise would be unrecognizable today. The Dark Ages were worth that win. Amonte and Weight were very good players but sacrificing them to win that Cup was worth it yikes infinity.

they also got rid of mike gartner - my favorite player.

we did have a little run with gretzky in 97, even if we had made it past philly nobody was beating detroit that year.

 

[ReddestRum]

One thing I'm curious about that the Laf crowd has been attached to lately, is why we trade away players and they do well elsewhere or that it is a cardinal sin to trade away young players.

Let me ask you, with the current core we have, with the contracts we have, with the NMC's that are attached to those contracts, are we chasing another cup run or are we in a full rebuild? There's no in-between, because in-between is useless for teams and they neither make it far into the playoffs or get to build a team from the bottom up.

If we're not going full rebuild, then why are people afraid to trade away players like it can't go 50-50 that they play well elsewhere. Players doing well after being traded is NOT unique to the Rangers, lol. My god, you should check the Flames board right now. Haha. The "Imagine..." scenario is flawed for the point that it's trying to make regarding this team. Do it for all the teams in the NHL in that timeframe. Not only that, but you also should highlight trades that actually made teams better. We can imagine in hindsight because the past is the past and crystal balls don't exist IRL.

I don't even want to get into not trading young players. It happens. Lucky for all of you that want to hold our young players to their chest, however, their trade stock is so low right that it isn't even worth it to consider trading them currently. Why cry about trading young players when draft picks not even associated to a name yet are thrown around willy nilly, especially by teams chasing the cup.

Either way, none of this matters in my opinion. I think we will chase the cup for at least two more years and continue to fail in that regard because the team falls asleep during the playoffs, vets don't produce, and the bottom 6 might not as well be there. If we commit to a rebuild, the team goes into the dark ages for years while we trade away the vets and scoop up more young players. Nothing but terrible years ahead no matter how you want to spin it.

 

[smoneil]

There's a psychological element to this as well. Kids who get picked top 3 are used to dominating and being the go-to guy on their teams. Laf and Kakko got here and never had to be that. They were support players. Even when they WERE moved up to the top six, they deferred to Bread, Zib, Kreider. And because coaches want to win more than develop, Laf and Kakko were played like support players. They lost out not only on the reps that come with larger roles but also the psychological drive to be THE guy that makes things happen.

If we want to have any chance of reclaiming the potential these kids once had, they need to either move Panarin or commit to playing him as a 3rd liner (which, IMO is unrealistic, but the threat of it might get him to waive his NMC). They need Laf and Kakko to know that the only way for the team to win is if THEY make it happen. Until they have that pressure/responsibility and the ice time/special teams that go along with it, they won't reach their true potential.

Right now, Kakko and (especially) Laf are too content to be good teammates and "wait their turn." If the team isn't going to help them by putting them into the best developmental position, then Laf and KK need to take a page out of Chytil's book. He was a LOT more assertive this season, and I have to wonder how much of that assertiveness was fueled by "f*** you" energy from the team signing Trocheck rather than giving Chytil his long-overdue opportunity in the top six when Strome left.

 

[ReddestRum]

There's a psychological element to this as well. Kids who get picked top 3 are used to dominating and being the go-to guy on their teams. Laf and Kakko got here and never had to be that. They were support players. Even when they WERE moved up to the top six, they deferred to Bread, Zib, Kreider. And because coaches want to win more than develop, Laf and Kakko were played like support players. They lost out not only on the reps that come with larger roles but also the psychological drive to be THE guy that makes things happen.

If we want to have any chance of reclaiming the potential these kids once had, they need to either move Panarin or commit to playing him as a 3rd liner (which, IMO is unrealistic, but the threat of it might get him to waive his NMC). They need Laf and Kakko to know that the only way for the team to win is if THEY make it happen. Until they have that pressure/responsibility and the ice time/special teams that go along with it, they won't reach their true potential.

Right now, Kakko and (especially) Laf are too content to be good teammates and "wait their turn." If the team isn't going to help them by putting them into the best developmental position, then Laf and KK need to take a page out of Chytil's book. He was a LOT more assertive this season, and I have to wonder how much of that assertiveness was fueled by "f*** you" energy from the team signing Trocheck rather than giving Chytil his long-overdue opportunity in the top six when Strome left.

TBF, Trocheck was a massive upgrade over Strome. Just for his F/O win percentage alone. He was the only person on the team with wins over 50% in the season. 56.1% to be exact. Chy was at 39.8%. Zibby was 49.5%. Goodrow was 45.9%.

I might be crazy here, but if he wants to be a Top 6 C, you'd want that percentage up way higher than the 30 percentile, no?

I think the same rules apply when we talk about kids in the Top 6. If you want to play in the Top 6 you've got to show you're dominating in the bottom 6. It just doesn't get easier for the kids putting them in the Top 6 with top minutes, because ultimately they will be playing opposite legit superstar lines.