Player Discussion Alexis Lafrenière

[bhamill]

Come on B, wait 2-3 years to see who is better? In 2-3 years Stutzle will have double the points in less games and he still hasn't played a playoff game yet. Haha.

I’m not saying that’s not the case. Im also not sure how that determines who is the better all around player AT the age of 24. The better over all “finished product.” As opposed to who has had a better NHL career to that point.

He could have sent Hughes to the Netherrealm in the 3rd: Hughes had his head down constantly trying to regain possession of the puck. All he had to do was take one stride, but he just backed off to get the loose puck.

But here's the thing: that's actually a systematic problem for the whole team as there were numerous instances where Rangers swarmed Huges, all of them potentially had Hughes dead to rights, yet, no one blasted him.

There are things that reek because it has Turk's thumbprint...but there are rudimentary things that Laf does or doesn't do that make you go "wtf."

People wanted the kids to work on their acceleration. Did they work on their skating in the off-season?

Peeling off from checks is a pet peeve of mine, but various posters have reminded me that the puck should be the priority… there’s a balancing act there I guess, but I’m a neanderthal so I want the hit. Hahaha.

 

[Brutananadilewski]

Peeling off from checks is a pet peeve of mine, but various posters have reminded me that the puck should be the priority… there’s a balancing act there I guess, but I’m a neanderthal so I want the hit. Hahaha.

One-on-one? Definitely.

More than 2 players? At least one player should have the mindset "well, looks like I'm going to baptize this little hellspawn!"

Them all collectively thinking "go for the puck" also resulted in one of McDavid's highlight goal last season.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

I remember comparing Lafrenière and Stützle in their first 30 games of their careers, and I remember saying that I was really impressed with Stützle and very unimpressed by Lafrenière. I don't think this was simply a development issue. Stützle was probably the better prospect, but because he played in Germany he was written off.

That's also true. Playing in the DEL is something a lot of scouts (even armchair scouts on social media) seemed to use against him.

As much as I am certain that Stützle is just the better player (regardless of playstyle), I agree and have no doubt he would have struggled here big time.

How do we fix that though? That's bad, we can always lure the FA because of NYC, but if we're not willing to change and develop a developing culture, we're just a cash-cow*.

* no shit we are a cash-cow

Dolan only cares about making the playoffs, not about winning in the playoffs. A shortsighted owner who only cares about the bucks right in front of him, pushes an attitude that turns the Rangers into always being in win-now mode.

 

[CLW]

That's also true. Playing in the DEL is something a lot of scouts (even armchair scouts on social media) seemed to use against him.

Draft "politics" is a show in itself along with the herd mentality. Seider was also seen as a daring pick by many for the same reasons.

 

[NYRFANMANI]

That's also true. Playing in the DEL is something a lot of scouts (even armchair scouts on social media) seemed to use against him.

Which is just dumb. It's a men's league and when youngsters step in at 17, that's just nuts. You know the kid is legit in that case. I tried to find the youngster players in the DEL. Some guy 20 years back had his debut at 16. It's rare enough to happen in the first place and we have like several years in a row, where the kids that played DEL at 17, where picked in the first two rounds

Dolan only cares about making the playoffs, not about winning in the playoffs. A shortsighted owner who only cares about the bucks right in front of him, pushes an attitude that turns the Rangers into always being in win-now mode.

It's a shame. Not willing to invest more, as it's shitting out money left and right already.

 

[KOVALEV022473]

Unfortunately, I think Laff is a bust as a 1st overall. Especially, juxtaposed to baby Huey. I think he will end up a middle six player. Sad. I really think this franchise is cursed.

 

[Filip Chytil]

As much as I am certain that Stützle is just the better player (regardless of playstyle), I agree and have no doubt he would have struggled here big time.

How do we fix that though? That's bad, we can always lure the FA because of NYC, but if we're not willing to change and develop a developing culture, we're just a cash-cow*.

* no shit we are a cash-cow

Rangers would've turned Stutzle into Jamie Lundmark

 

[ReddestRum]

Did any of you guys watch Hughes or Stutzle in their rookie seasons? Both of those guys didn't start out laughably slow. While they were still trying to find their game, as well as cohesion at an NHL level, both of those players had the speed, agility, and hands, which is what you normally see from kids coming into the game today. They had it slightly easier by being on shit teams still trying to find their way, but I'll argue if you're a Laf type constantly playing against 3rd/4th line opponents, you've got to look like you've either got the skill to be better than your opponents or (even to a lesser degree) look like you're the leader on whatever line they put you on.

Neither Hughes nor Stutzle were blindly given top minutes in their rookie season, but their teams engaged in experiments at the top and PP, and you know what? It f***ing worked out. Both of those players can play against top lines and are PP captains, and they looked the part even though they weren't putting up crazy numbers.

Guys like Zucc, Buch, Kovalev, CK, JT Miller, Fox, Stephan are homegrowns that have turned out great careers.

By the time you hit NHL level you aren't being "developed" like you would be in minors. The organization isn't holding your hand through you needing to get better, but will be giving you direction on what they think you need to be working on. The organization will move you throughout the lineup, give you some experience in different situations, but getting faster and stronger and better is something that IS and will ALWAYS be on the player. NHL player development is not sitting with you one on one in the gym counting your reps or scolding you on the fries you ate between games on the weekend. They give you a direction and will come up with a plan for you to carry out that direction.

I've said it before as well, but the only other way that the organization can help a player is by having a system that compliments that player. Unfortunately, you can't accommodate everyone. The Rangers continue to play a slow, aging dump and chase system as opposed to a high octane system than let's say... Kraken or Avs. It's the only organizational shortfall I see, but not force feeding minutes isn't one of them.

 

[RangersFan1994]

Unfortunately, I think Laff is a bust as a 1st overall. Especially, juxtaposed to baby Huey. I think he will end up a middle six player. Sad. I really think this franchise is cursed.

can’t be cursed if your scouting sucks. McIlrath over Tarasenko, Lias Andersson at 7th overall, Bobby Sanguinetti over Giroux, Huge Jessiman in a group of great NHL players, Parise, Brown, Perry etc. Not cursed. They just cant judge talent at any level of hockey. NHL level thought Bickel, Nemeth, Powe, McKegg, playing good players at the NHL. Never gave Graves a chance, dealt Duclair, put Yandle in a position to fail, Ollas Lindblom over Drury and other better NHL players, list goes on and on.


Point proven lmfao

 

[bhamill]

Did any of you guys watch Hughes or Stutzle in their rookie seasons? Both of those guys didn't start out laughably slow. While they were still trying to find their game, as well as cohesion at an NHL level, both of those players had the speed, agility, and hands, which is what you normally see from kids coming into the game today. They had it slightly easier by being on shit teams still trying to find their way, but I'll argue if you're a Laf type constantly playing against 3rd/4th line opponents, you've got to look like you've either got the skill to be better than your opponents or (even to a lesser degree) look like you're the leader on whatever line they put you on.

Neither Hughes nor Stutzle were blindly given top minutes in their rookie season, but their teams engaged in experiments at the top and PP, and you know what? It f***ing worked out. Both of those players can play against top lines and are PP captains, and they looked the part even though they weren't putting up crazy numbers.

Guys like Zucc, Buch, Kovalev, CK, JT Miller, Fox, Stephan are homegrowns that have turned out great careers.

By the time you hit NHL level you aren't being "developed" like you would be in minors. The organization isn't holding your hand through you needing to get better, but will be giving you direction on what they think you need to be working on. The organization will move you throughout the lineup, give you some experience in different situations, but getting faster and stronger and better is something that IS and will ALWAYS be on the player. NHL player development is not sitting with you one on one in the gym counting your reps or scolding you on the fries you ate between games on the weekend. They give you a direction and will come up with a plan for you to carry out that direction.

I've said it before as well, but the only other way that the organization can help a player is by having a system that compliments that player. Unfortunately, you can't accommodate everyone. The Rangers continue to play a slow, aging dump and chase system as opposed to a high octane system than let's say... Kraken or Avs. It's the only organizational shortfall I see, but not force feeding minutes isn't one of them.

Stutzle is “out of market” for me so I didn’t watch him too much. I won’t comment on that. His stats were slightly better than Laf’s overall, less at even strength.
Jack I watched. Hughes was a trash fire in his D+1. He got steady top line minutes and pp time and scored 21 points with no other contributions to the team on defense, physicality, etc. 12 points at even strength. The Devils never wavered. Kept him on big minutes and the pp. By contrast, Laf was awful as well, also 21 points. All even strength, while playing 5 less games and getting 4 minutes less a game than Hughes, with zero powerplay time, and getting sat often for his growing pains. And being punished for youthful mistakes continued right into this season. Their usage/responsibilities/leashes/development paths could hardly have been more different. Mostly because our teams could not have been more different. Hughes was groomed to be a team leader and top line player. Lafreniere was groomed to be a complimentary player. You can have your opinions on whether Laf would be much better now or not if given the same treatment, and you can have the opinion that a 3rd line complimentary grinder is all he will ever be, but to say they got the same treatment is objectively wrong.

 

[Megustaelhockey]

If I'm stepping up to the mic at the draft, I'm not picking a complimentary player 1st overall.

 

[bhamill]

If I'm stepping up to the mic at the draft, I'm not picking a complimentary player 1st overall.

Neither would I. But that is how they have brought Laf along, to this point.

 

[KOVALEV022473]

can’t be cursed if your scouting sucks. McIlrath over Tarasenko, Lias Andersson at 7th overall, Bobby Sanguinetti over Giroux, Huge Jessiman in a group of great NHL players, Parise, Brown, Perry etc. Not cursed. They just cant judge talent at any level of hockey. NHL level thought Bickel, Nemeth, Powe, McKegg, playing good players at the NHL. Never gave Graves a chance, dealt Duclair, put Yandle in a position to fail, Ollas Lindblom over Drury and other better NHL players, list goes on and on.


Point proven lmfao

As true as all of that is, I don’t really know what it has to do with Laff. I mean Stutzle was two picks later.

 

[CLW]

Stutzle is “out of market” for me so I didn’t watch him too much. I won’t comment on that. His stats were slightly better than Laf’s overall, less at even strength.
Jack I watched. Hughes was a trash fire in his D+1. He got steady top line minutes and pp time and scored 21 points with no other contributions to the team on defense, physicality, etc. 12 points at even strength. The Devils never wavered. Kept him on big minutes and the pp. By contrast, Laf was awful as well, also 21 points. All even strength, while playing 5 less games and getting 4 minutes less a game than Hughes, with zero powerplay time, and getting sat often for his growing pains. And being punished for youthful mistakes continued right into this season. Their usage/responsibilities/leashes/development paths could hardly have been more different. Mostly because our teams could not have been more different. Hughes was groomed to be a team leader and top line player. Lafreniere was groomed to be a complimentary player. You can have your opinions on whether Laf would be much better now or not if given the same treatment, and you can have the opinion that a 3rd line complimentary grinder is all he will ever be, but to say they got the same treatment is objectively wrong.

Great post. Ranger fans want to have Schrödinger's prospects, for them to contribute immediately to a cup contending team while not having any serious flaws. J. Hughes/Zegras/Stützle would undoubtedly have been told by the Rangers to not deke on his backhand and to work on his board game and to use the off season to bulk up, with playtime on the 3rd line and instructed not to try anything so they don't cough up the puck. The team must make the playoffs see... (owner's instruction).

 

[The New Russian Five]

Stutzle is “out of market” for me so I didn’t watch him too much. I won’t comment on that. His stats were slightly better than Laf’s overall, less at even strength.
Jack I watched. Hughes was a trash fire in his D+1. He got steady top line minutes and pp time and scored 21 points with no other contributions to the team on defense, physicality, etc. 12 points at even strength. The Devils never wavered. Kept him on big minutes and the pp. By contrast, Laf was awful as well, also 21 points. All even strength, while playing 5 less games and getting 4 minutes less a game than Hughes, with zero powerplay time, and getting sat often for his growing pains. And being punished for youthful mistakes continued right into this season. Their usage/responsibilities/leashes/development paths could hardly have been more different. Mostly because our teams could not have been more different. Hughes was groomed to be a team leader and top line player. Lafreniere was groomed to be a complimentary player. You can have your opinions on whether Laf would be much better now or not if given the same treatment, and you can have the opinion that a 3rd line complimentary grinder is all he will ever be, but to say they got the same treatment is objectively wrong.

I watched Jack his first season. He clearly struggled, but what was evident right from the beginning was that he had immense talent that he flashed at times during games. Laf on the other hand, it has been 3 years and the only really talented thing I've seen him do is that between the legs move in the slot that he tried twice. That's it.

 

[ReddestRum]

Stutzle is “out of market” for me so I didn’t watch him too much. I won’t comment on that. His stats were slightly better than Laf’s overall, less at even strength.
Jack I watched. Hughes was a trash fire in his D+1. He got steady top line minutes and pp time and scored 21 points with no other contributions to the team on defense, physicality, etc. 12 points at even strength. The Devils never wavered. Kept him on big minutes and the pp. By contrast, Laf was awful as well, also 21 points. All even strength, while playing 5 less games and getting 4 minutes less a game than Hughes, with zero powerplay time, and getting sat often for his growing pains. And being punished for youthful mistakes continued right into this season. Their usage/responsibilities/leashes/development paths could hardly have been more different. Mostly because our teams could not have been more different. Hughes was groomed to be a team leader and top line player. Lafreniere was groomed to be a complimentary player. You can have your opinions on whether Laf would be much better now or not if given the same treatment, and you can have the opinion that a 3rd line complimentary grinder is all he will ever be, but to say they got the same treatment is objectively wrong.

For 4-5 games in a row we tried Laf on the first line, getting top minutes (18-21+), and top PP1 minutes. He didn't do anything with his opportunity, but you can't say that he never got the opportunity. Want to argue that's not enough to get a sample of what the kid would look with big minutes? Fine. But you're moving goalposts at that point. If you took Laf off the top unit in juniors and played him on the 4th unit on his team, he'd be both the leader on that line AND still getting points.

The kids that are scoring 60, 70, 80, 90 points a season don't even need special teams to play Top 6. They don't need PP1 scoring to continue looking like they belong in even the Top 3.

Laf could've easily put up some big points this season, even being in the bottom 6 against bottom 6 competition, but how can a coach that doesn't want to lose his job, put Laf and keep him in the Top 6, keep him on PP1 as a pylon, when he can go 11 games, 17 games, without putting up a single point??

 

[RangersFan1994]

As true as all of that is, I don’t really know what it has to do with Laff. I mean Stutzle was two picks later.

If Lafy was on other teams, he’d be given top line minutes from the start like Berniers for the Krakken. I’d take Berniers over both all day. They rather coddle to the vets and make the kids earn their minutes by getting the vets their lunch during the pregame meals and whatnot

 

[SA16]

If Lafy was on other teams, he’d be given top line minutes from the start like Berniers for the Krakken. I’d take Berniers over both all day. They rather coddle to the vets and make the kids earn their minutes by getting the vets their lunch during the pregame meals and whatnot

Sort of like how Laf played with either Zibanejad or Panarin in every game of the first month of his rookie season excluding game 1?

 

[The Crypto Guy]

Sort of like how Laf played with either Zibanejad or Panarin in every game of the first month of his rookie season excluding game 1?

One whole month? How the f*** didn't he turn into Gretzky from that?!

 

[ReddestRum]

Sort of like how Laf played with either Zibanejad or Panarin in every game of the first month of his rookie season excluding game 1?

Mercer seems to be a permanent 3rd liner who has to play a harder game as a C. He has 7 more points than Laf in his two NHL seasons and with 52 less games played. 3 points in 6 games riding that 3rd line in the playoffs. Most teams would kill for any 3rd liner who is pushing 60 (even more if they were a Center), but alas, our kids aren't there yet. We tried Laf in the top 6 yesterday and he looked... ordinary.

Please more excuses for our guy. While most of the "kids" in the NHL continue to pass Laf by, we're going to continue saying how x-player made an amazing play, while we keep blaming other players for Laf being Laf by saying, "Well if x-player finished Laf's pass, he would have a point."

 

[Synergy27]

Remember that feeling when we won the lottery? That was something, wasn’t it?

 

[ReddestRum]

One whole month? How the f*** didn't he turn into Gretzky from that?!

I think the point was, like most top draft picks touted with the skill to go his number, he was put on top lines right out of the gate.

Unfortunately for us, he popped more bubblelicious bubbles than produced at the top. Not sure why'd you keep him there with that poor output then there are other wingers deserving of that time.

 

[KOVALEV022473]

Sort of like how Laf played with either Zibanejad or Panarin in every game of the first month of his rookie season excluding game 1?

Exactly.

 

[RangersFan1994]

Mercer seems to be a permanent 3rd liner who has to play a harder game as a C. He has 7 more points than Laf in his two NHL seasons and with 52 less games played. 3 points in 6 games riding that 3rd line in the playoffs. Most teams would kill for any 3rd liner who is pushing 60 (even more if they were a Center), but alas, our kids aren't there yet. We tried Laf in the top 6 yesterday and he looked... ordinary.

Please more excuses for our guy. While most of the "kids" in the NHL continue to pass Laf by, we're going to continue saying how x-player made an amazing play, while we keep blaming other players for Laf being Laf by saying, "Well if x-player finished Laf's pass, he would have a point."

they did not have to pick Lafy. They could have went off the board like they always do

 

[bhamill]

For 4-5 games in a row we tried Laf on the first line, getting top minutes (18-21+), and top PP1 minutes. He didn't do anything with his opportunity, but you can't say that he never got the opportunity. Want to argue that's not enough to get a sample of what the kid would look with big minutes? Fine. But you're moving goalposts at that point. If you took Laf off the top unit in juniors and played him on the 4th unit on his team, he'd be both the leader on that line AND still getting points.

The kids that are scoring 60, 70, 80, 90 points a season don't even need special teams to play Top 6. They don't need PP1 scoring to continue looking like they belong in even the Top 3.

Laf could've easily put up some big points this season, even being in the bottom 6 against bottom 6 competition, but how can a coach that doesn't want to lose his job, put Laf and keep him in the Top 6, keep him on PP1 as a pylon, when he can go 11 games, 17 games, without putting up a single point??

4 or 5 whole games, huh? And he wasn’t immediately up to it? Bustville. Come on. Hughes wasn’t a deserved first liner 4 or 5 or 50 games in.
Again, you can be disappointed with Laf‘s play, you can believe he’s a career 4th liner. Doesn’t matter to me. Im not here to tell anyone what to think. And I’m not going to let anyone tell me what to think either. But he simply didn’t get the treatment Hughes, Stutzle and other top picks normally get. That’s just factual.