Player Discussion Alexis Lafrenière

[Gordon Bombay]

I literally said it was a great move coming in. Lol. The rejoice part wasn't sarcasm because he actually showed some hands there that he normally doesn't show, but your reply seemed you took it exactly like that. You can't make a post like that, not expect a negative response, and then tell me to go have a beer. LOL.

Your post comes off very sarcastic, especially when you have a milk carton post of Laf 3 posts above that. I'm sure 90% of this board would've taken that as sarcasm.

It's all good. Things can be read wrong. You should still go have a beer though. We all should after a good win

 

[ReddestRum]

Your post comes off very sarcastic, especially when you have a milk carton post of Laf 3 posts above that. I'm sure 90% of this board would've taken that as sarcasm.

It's all good. Things can be read wrong. You should still go have a beer though. We all should after a good win

All good. It just gets tiresome having to come in this thread, point out flaws in Laf's game (and even in a joking way) and get told that because I have issues with his game, that I'm actively rooting against him as if I want him to fail. I've literally had to answer those posts by showing that I praise him elsewhere (and here) for making great plays and playing well in the past in this thread. I continuously have to fight against the mob to let people know I'm fair with my assessments of Laf, both good and bad. You thought I was sarcastic, and I took your return post as patronizing. Ah well.

 

[Gordon Bombay]

All good. It just gets tiresome having to come in this thread, point out flaws in Laf's game (and even in a joking way) and get told that because I have issues with his game, that I'm actively rooting against him as if I want him to fail. I've literally had to answer those posts by showing that I praise him elsewhere (and here) for making great plays and playing well in the past in this thread. I continuously have to fight against the mob to let people know I'm fair with my assessments of Laf, both good and bad. You thought I was sarcastic, and I took your return post as patronizing. Ah well.

All good brother, I agree with you he def still has his flaws. I don’t always see every post so I’ve prolly missed some of what you said.

Cheers man and LGR

 

[2014nyr]

kids a stud, who cares what people who don't know hockey say...his time will come to be leaned on for production. keep the receipts though. he's playing well on both sides of the puck and potted a beauty today. enjoy it or don't doesn't make a difference

 

[ORRFForever]

I sure hope he can one day string together games like tonight.

 

[markymarc1215]

He doubled the amount of points today that Kravtsov has scored in 12 games in a Top 6 role with Vancouver.

 

[Draft Guru]

He doubled the amount of points today that Kravtsov has scored in 12 games in a Top 6 role with Vancouver.

Kravtsov has been on the 4th line with Podkolzin and Dries. Far, far cry from a "top 6 role with Vancouver." Just saying.

 

[Chaels Arms]

He doubled the amount of points today that Kravtsov has scored in 12 games in a Top 6 role with Vancouver.

You're actually talking straight out of your rear end with this post. Kravtsov would be the only "top 6" forward in NHL history to average 11 minutes of ice time per game.

 

[Psycho for Perreault]

You're actually talking straight out of your rear end with this post. Kravtsov would be the only "top 6" forward in NHL history to average 11 minutes of ice time per game.

If anyone could find a way, it’s Krav.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Kravtsov has been on the 4th line with Podkolzin and Dries. Far, far cry from a "top 6 role with Vancouver." Just saying.

How about this?

Laf had double the production yesterday Kravtsov has had in almost 120 minutes with Vancouver?

Ditto Kakko and Chytil.

#1in12

 

[markymarc1215]

Fair points and I will revise the sentiment. I am happy that Laf had a 2 point game. I genuinely like his overall play and think he has incredible upside with a bigger learning curve than 1st anticipated. I feel the same about Kakko. I like their attitudes and their willingness, though not easy for them, to take reduced roles on a stacked team to win a cup. I will root for them even if both ultimately underperform our initial expectations for them.

I was not happy with Krav or Lias because it was all about them, not to mention both were reaches relative to their draft position. I did not care for their whining and inability to show anything at the NHL level. Both got their wish and were traded after walking out on the team. Lias can't make the Kings roster and Krav, on a very weak Canucks team, is getting 4th line minutes (though I swear he was on the PP too at least early on), with a stat line of 12gp 0-1-1

 

[bl02]

Fair points and I will revise the sentiment. I am happy that Laf had a 2 point game. I genuinely like his overall play and think he has incredible upside with a bigger learning curve than 1st anticipated. I feel the same about Kakko. I like their attitudes and their willingness, though not easy for them, to take reduced roles on a stacked team to win a cup. I will root for them even if both ultimately underperform our initial expectations for them.

I was not happy with Krav or Lias because it was all about them, not to mention both were reaches relative to their draft position. I did not care for their whining and inability to show anything at the NHL level. Both got their wish and were traded after walking out on the team. Lias can't make the Kings roster and Krav, on a very weak Canucks team, is getting 4th line minutes (though I swear he was on the PP too at least early on), with a stat line of 12gp 0-1-1

BIngo. Character. Glad they are complaining somewhere else.

 

[TopShelfSnipes]

Fair points and I will revise the sentiment. I am happy that Laf had a 2 point game. I genuinely like his overall play and think he has incredible upside with a bigger learning curve than 1st anticipated. I feel the same about Kakko. I like their attitudes and their willingness, though not easy for them, to take reduced roles on a stacked team to win a cup. I will root for them even if both ultimately underperform our initial expectations for them.

I was not happy with Krav or Lias because it was all about them, not to mention both were reaches relative to their draft position. I did not care for their whining and inability to show anything at the NHL level. Both got their wish and were traded after walking out on the team. Lias can't make the Kings roster and Krav, on a very weak Canucks team, is getting 4th line minutes (though I swear he was on the PP too at least early on), with a stat line of 12gp 0-1-1

I like Laf and Kakko's willingness too. I'd really just love to see the organization take on a more active role in facilitating their development. Would love to see Laf work with a powerskating coach as well as on his explosiveness in the offseason. He doesn't need to change the way he plays, but just to have the ability to quickly accelerate, or turn to linear crossovers for breakaway speed will have a massive impact on his ability to create offense. His hands are already elite. If he improves his skating by leaps and bounds this offseason, then works on improving his release next year, he will be elite. The trouble I see is that his body just doesn't do what he wants it to, so fighting through checks is not there for him as it was against lesser competition. If he does both of those, he's probably an 80 point player in 2 seasons.

For Kakko, it's mostly mental. Maybe the team could connect with Teemu Selanne to take him around Finland driving racecars and just otherwise living balls out for a couple weeks so he gets some swagger to his game. But from a coaching/mentorship standpoint, I would like to see someone with that level of knowledge work with him on getting open without the puck, and I'd also like to see the swagger play out more as him going, "I'm going to throw this 5'11" shrimp that's trying to defend me on my back and take him and the puck to the net" when he gets those mismatches instead of keeping the puck on the perimeter. If he can do that, he's a 65 point player already.

Lias was frustrating because he never was that good, and never really put up numbers anywhere, but expected top minutes on a roster where he was already typecast as a third, maybe second liner at best. Then, when he was playing in the NHL, he still wasn't satisfied. But he never showed anything (not even in training camp) that made you think he was anything other than a grinder.

Krav had his moments at times, and the team is as responsible for what happened as he was. At least he did show potential though. Unfortunately, Vancouver wasn't nearly as bad as their record early on (and the whole ownership-Boudreau situation didn't help anyone) but they've been quietly very good over the past few weeks and got a bunch of talent back, so Kravtsov is back on the 4th line. I haven't heard him complaining of late, so at least he's in the lineup. Understand his frustrations here when he was getting scratched for Jake Leschyshyn of all people though. Whatever the case, too much damage was done for it to work here. No idea what he'll be, but at least he has talent. Never saw the hype with Lias. It was like when we drafted McIlrath, and there were the people that thought he'd be our best defensive Dman since Beukeboom. Uh, based on what?

 

[IceColdOx]

I always thought Lias had an overinflated sense about himself. I remember when him and Fil both went down and Lias seemingly packed it in. Fil would his tail off and never got sent down again.

 

[LORDE]

Laf looked great last night but this BS about him being elite at anything or would be elite at anything needs to die

He's had his stints on line 1, 2 & PP1

He doesn't look like last night often & last night was still not elite.

He's good. He'll get better.

But he will never be elite.

 

[Rangerfan4life90]

Laf looked great last night but this BS about him being elite at anything or would be elite at anything needs to die

He's had his stints on line 1, 2 & PP1

He doesn't look like last night often & last night was still not elite.

He's good. He'll get better.

But he will never be elite.

At this point, if Laf becomes Huberdeau lite with a better physical defending forecheck game, I'll be happy.

 

[jerseyjinx94]

Laf looked great last night but this BS about him being elite at anything or would be elite at anything needs to die

He's had his stints on line 1, 2 & PP1

He doesn't look like last night often & last night was still not elite.

He's good. He'll get better.

But he will never be elite.

I got a lot of respect for you buddy, but it’s not BS. He has not had consistent time to develop in those spots. He gets jerked around. He’s had “stints” like you said, but a stint is a brief, temporary time period. Not one where a guy can work through the game and find it.

 

[ThirdEye]

I’m just trying to appreciate the two for who they are at this point and know that we have more than enough talent outside of them to win a Cup. The flip side to the lack of production is that we don’t need to worry as much about locking them up long term, so when Panarin and Zib hit their expiration date we can actually afford to build around them

 

[LORDE]

I got a lot of respect for you buddy, but it’s not BS. He has not had consistent time to develop in those spots. He gets jerked around. He’s had “stints” like you said, but a stint is a brief, temporary time period. Not one where a guy can work through the game and find it.

I just don't see what forcefeeding him PP mins will do when he looks anything but better on the PP than he does at ES

As I said, he'll get better. He's young. But elite is a pipedream at this pt

 

[PANARIN BREAD FAN]

I got a lot of respect for you buddy, but it’s not BS. He has not had consistent time to develop in those spots. He gets jerked around. He’s had “stints” like you said, but a stint is a brief, temporary time period. Not one where a guy can work through the game and find it.

those brief, temporary stints would have been long, permanent ones if he performed. you don't perform you fail the audition. it's as simple as that. bloop-down to the 3rd line.

cooper hasn't seen stamkos play to a high bar of established tampa standards. if coop can do that to a future hall of famer then gg can also go bloop-down to the 3rd line.

I just don't see what forcefeeding him PP mins will do when he looks anything but better on the PP than he does at ES

As I said, he'll get better. He's young. But elite is a pipedream at this pt

unless to be proven otherwise sometime down the road the kid is our version of beavillier.

 

[bhamill]

those brief, temporary stints would have been long, permanent ones if he performed. you don't perform you fail the audition. it's as simple as that. bloop-down to the 3rd line.

cooper hasn't seen stamkos play to a high bar of established tampa standards. if coop can do that to a future hall of famer then gg can also go bloop-down to the 3rd line.


unless to be proven otherwise sometime down the road the kid is our version of beavillier.

Problem with your argument is that prior to the second half of this season even when Laf has “passed the audition” and has played well he’s gotten yanked around. And I don’t think it was anything more than the fact that we have so many star veterans ahead of him in the pecking order. AND we have been a team trying to win.
Hughes’ D+1 season he scored 21 points. And 9 were on the PP. Laf’s D+1 he scored 21 points. All at even strength. In 5 less games than Hughes. Did Hughes “pass the audition”? No. He didn’t. But he wasn’t blocked by highly skilled vets on a team trying to win. So they stuck with him through his “audition failures”, gave him responsibility, built his confidence and got him rolling. Is it fair to say Laf would be scoring the way Hughes is now with the same support and usage? No. But it’s fair to say he’d be farther along in his development and probably not have anyone “proclaiming” that at 21 with a little over 200 games played in less than three seasons, including a COVID shortened one that he has zero chance to be elite. Hahaha.

 

[ReddestRum]

Problem with your argument is that prior to the second half of this season even when Laf has “passed the audition” and has played well he’s gotten yanked around. And I don’t think it was anything more than the fact that we have so many star veterans ahead of him in the pecking order. AND we have been a team trying to win.
Hughes’ D+1 season he scored 21 points. And 9 were on the PP. Laf’s D+1 he scored 21 points. All at even strength. In 5 less games than Hughes. Did Hughes “pass the audition”? No. He didn’t. But he wasn’t blocked by highly skilled vets on a team trying to win. So they stuck with him through his “audition failures”, gave him responsibility, built his confidence and got him rolling. Is it fair to say Laf would be scoring the way Hughes is now with the same support and usage? No. But it’s fair to say he’d be farther along in his development and probably not have anyone “proclaiming” that at 21 with a little over 200 games played in less than three seasons, including a COVID shortened one that he has zero chance to be elite. Hahaha.

Hughes came out looking like a f***ing stud in his D+3. You guys keep bringing up COVID, but Hughes played less games than Laf that season AND nearly doubled his points, and is now headed towards a 90 point season. Hughes didn't just get better mid-season, but he obviously put in the work in the off-season and came out of the gates hard. He looked like a different player right at the start of D+3. Laf has looked like Laf every time the season starts. He needs to go back to QC during the off-season and find himself a trainer that will work on his speed. Actually, work on his whole game.

 

[bhamill]

Hughes came out looking like a f***ing stud in his D+3. You guys keep bringing up COVID, but Hughes played less games than Laf that season AND nearly doubled his points, and is now headed towards a 90 point season. Hughes didn't just get better mid-season, but he obviously put in the work in the off-season and came out of the gates hard. He looked like a different player right at the start of D+3. Laf has looked like Laf every time the season starts.

First, if you think present Laf looks the same as D+1 Laf, we have nothing to talk about, that’s an extreme fundamental difference in perception.
Second, you aren’t really disputing my point at all. Hughes had usage and opportunity that was about 180° different than Laf’s even though Laf had a better D+1 than Hughes. So saying Laf “failed the auditions” just ignores the fact the 1OA picks are normally given the chance to fail, learn and improve “on the job.” Laf, because of our team circumstances, did not have the benefit of that, did not get the opportunity to make mistakes without “demotion,” did not get power play time. You may think that doesn’t make a difference, but logically it does. It builds confidence and gives experience. If you think this has made zero difference in the rate of Laf’s development, well, again, we have nothing to talk about here.
My only reference to COVID was in talking about Lafreniere’s game experience, as one of his two complete seasons was not a whole season. And obviously he hasn’t completed a third. I’m not sure what your issue is with that, as it’s clearly factual. I never said Hughes wasn’t affected by COVID, in fact it probably negatively factored into his development as well. It’s not like me saying COVID shortened one of Laf’s seasons, means that he was the only player affected. I’m not sure why you are taking that tact.

Edit: BTW, I totally agree he needs to "find himself a trainer that will work on his speed. Actually, work on his whole game." EVERY young player who wants to be his best should be doing that. And not just young ones. This should be a given.

 

[2014nyr]

First, if you think present Laf looks the same as D+1 Laf, we have nothing to talk about, that’s an extreme fundamental difference in perception.
Second, you aren’t really disputing my point at all. Hughes had usage and opportunity that was about 180° different than Laf’s even though Laf had a better D+1 than Hughes. So saying Laf “failed the auditions” just ignores the fact the 1OA picks are normally given the chance to fail, learn and improve “on the job.” Laf, because of our team circumstances, did not have the benefit of that, did not get the opportunity to make mistakes without “demotion,” did not get power play time. You may think that doesn’t make a difference, but logically it does. It builds confidence and gives experience. If you think this has made zero difference in the rate of Laf’s development, well, again, we have nothing to talk about here.
My only reference to COVID was in talking about Lafreniere’s game experience, as one of his two complete seasons was not a whole season. And obviously he hasn’t completed a third. I’m not sure what your issue is with that, as it’s clearly factual. I never said Hughes wasn’t affected by COVID, in fact it probably negatively factored into his development as well. It’s not like me saying COVID shortened one of Laf’s seasons, means that he was the only player affected. I’m not sure why you are taking that tact.

yea i think covid has a severely underappreciated impact on some prospects. laf didn't just lose much of his predraft season, he also had to train in his garage from that point until he came to ny before training camp...canada was even more extreme with lockdowns. he then also had to play his entire first season under those weird protocols that didn't make for the most comfortable adjustment for an 18 year old leaving home for the first time. its not saying he'd have 90 points today if all had played out normally, but there's no doubt that had an impact physically and likely wasn't the easiest mentally.

when it comes to laf though, he is the real deal. i'm not sure he ever hits 100 points but it's possible. i am very confident he becomes at least a roughly pt per game guy who will wear the c and play the kind of game you love having on your team.

on covid impact more generally i've been saying for a while these last couple, and probably through this and maybe to some degree next year, draft could yield significantly more outliers in terms of hita/misses in each round. almost every kid lost some development time with a huge range of just how much at ages where there can be significant leaps taken. i'm thinking there's going to be a lot of kids who might fly a bit under the radar as of their draft year who take major leaps as they make up for lost time. will be interesting to look back at these drafts in 5-10 years and see how things played out....i mean the total number of stars/contributors will probably stay within your normal distribution, i just think you have a higher probability of finding those talents throughout the draft that normally skew towards the top round or 2. it could also be the lost time ultimately results in fewer nhl players by like over a standard deviation given the challenges of making up lost time.

 

[bhamill]

yea i think covid has a severely underappreciated impact on some prospects. laf didn't just lose much of his predraft season, he also had to train in his garage from that point until he came to ny before training camp...canada was even more extreme with lockdowns. he then also had to play his entire first season under those weird protocols that didn't make for the most comfortable adjustment for an 18 year old leaving home for the first time. its not saying he'd have 90 points today if all had played out normally, but there's no doubt that had an impact physically and likely wasn't the easiest mentally.

when it comes to laf though, he is the real deal. i'm not sure he ever hits 100 points but it's possible. i am very confident he becomes at least a roughly pt per game guy who will wear the c and play the kind of game you love having on your team.

on covid impact more generally i've been saying for a while these last couple, and probably through this and maybe to some degree next year, draft could yield significantly more outliers in terms of hita/misses in each round. almost every kid lost some development time with a huge range of just how much at ages where there can be significant leaps taken. i'm thinking there's going to be a lot of kids who might fly a bit under the radar as of their draft year who take major leaps as they make up for lost time. will be interesting to look back at these drafts in 5-10 years and see how things played out....i mean the total number of stars/contributors will probably stay within your normal distribution, i just think you have a higher probability of finding those talents throughout the draft that normally skew towards the top round or 2. it could also be the lost time ultimately results in fewer nhl players by like over a standard deviation given the challenges of making up lost time.

Yeah, honestly my point here was that it's pretty wild to be stating that a player as universally highly regarded as Lafreniere, considering how the team dynamics, and a lesser extent IMO, COVID, have affected his rate of development, has ZERO chance at becoming an elite player. It's one thing to say "I don't see it. I don't see him ever becoming elite." It's another to say, in so many words, "You're all wrong, I'm guaranteeing he has zero chance of being an elite player. Discussion: OVER." Hahaha.

Also, I think you are correct that we may see more outliers/surprises compared to draft position, both good and disappointing, due to the disruption in players' development from COVID.