Player Discussion Alexis Lafrenière

[nyr2k2]

I mean, I get it. You don't think his overall play in the season has been weak and/or okay? Because just like you can quantify his last 10 games, why can't I quantify his first 10? Or next 10? Or the next? Why is quantifiable for you and not for me? Because I can definitely quantify some shit stretches and stats for Laf, just like you an quantify stretches where he's produced.

You can quantify all you want, I'm not telling you otherwise. Of course, quantifiable means something that can actually be counted and expressed as a number, rather than using generic labels like weak and okay.

What I saw preceding your post was people looking at small, recent samples to quantify his play of late, and then you getting snarky about people doing that. It makes sense reading your subsequent posts, that you've realized he's not the second coming of Jesus like you initially thought, but I...don't think that's what the other posters are trying to convey.

 

[IDvsEGO]

What would Laf need to do between now to the end of the post season run to change the Rangers priorities and lock him up to a long term extension? Is it even possible for the Rangers to give him a contract and have a 2nd line center for the breadline?

He cannot sign an extension until after next off season.
Kakko is this off season.

 

[IDvsEGO]

The nonsense is thinking how players play should not have any reflection on their playing time and role. Both Laffy and Kakko have been given a lot of quality ice time. Some other players would have been sent down with their lack of production. Our franchise has been very patient with them. You dont just throw them in the deep end of the pool and watch them drown. You let them learn how to swim. Both guys have played top 6 minutes before they earned them. I'm optimistic and Laf and Kakko but lets not get ahead of ourselves. If Kakko had another name people would be pulling their hair out complaining that he is dragging down our second line. He is a better option than Hunt but lets not pretend that he has produced like a top 6 forward.

Neither kakko nor laf their first year were eligible for the AHL I believe, and then last year kakko was playing much better and definitely looked like an NHL player at least defensively. Whereas laf would've had to go to the Q.
When you draft in the top 2, you cant say "ok go down the ahl and work on your game" because then you lose the player for the season to go back and forth.
Could we have asked kakko to stay in the Liiga for another year for his rookie season? Sure, but he might not have been happy about it, and we probably wanted to get him in as quickly as possible to adjust.

 

[Chaels Arms]

The nonsense is thinking how players play should not have any reflection on their playing time and role. Both Laffy and Kakko have been given a lot of quality ice time. Some other players would have been sent down with their lack of production. Our franchise has been very patient with them. You dont just throw them in the deep end of the pool and watch them drown. You let them learn how to swim. Both guys have played top 6 minutes before they earned them. I'm optimistic and Laf and Kakko but lets not get ahead of ourselves. If Kakko had another name people would be pulling their hair out complaining that he is dragging down our second line. He is a better option than Hunt but lets not pretend that he has produced like a top 6 forward.

Ah yes, more rewriting of history.

I look forward to seeing this more frequently as time goes forward.

Lafreniere didn't start producing until he was given lots of ice time with good players. Before that, he was doing diddly squat. In fact, for the first couple of games with Kreider and Mika he was doing diddly squat.

It's the chicken and the egg. Except in this case there is a definitive series of cause and effect.

There is a contingent who would like to gaslight people into believing that Lafreniere somehow "earned" his way onto Kreider and Mika's line by producing with lesser players in a lesser role. That definitively never happened.

Let's not forget that when Kakko comes back, has a few bad games and then proceeds to look like a trash player on the 3rd and 4th lines.

 

[IDvsEGO]

Ah yes, more rewriting of history.

I look forward to seeing this more frequently as time goes forward.

Lafreniere didn't start producing until he was given lots of ice time with good players. Before that, he was doing diddly squat. In fact, for the first couple of games with Kreider and Mika he was doing diddly squat.

It's the chicken and the egg. Except in this case there is a definitive series of cause and effect.

There is a contingent who would like to gaslight people into believing that Lafreniere somehow "earned" his way onto Kreider and Mika's line by producing with lesser players in a lesser role. That definitively never happened.

Let's not forget that when Kakko comes back, has a few bad games and then proceeds to look like a trash player on the 3rd and 4th lines.

I mean Laf also opened his career playing with mika and ck, and he did not look comfortable.

Laf then had a great period when panarin was out where he was playing with strome last year, where he looked alot more comfortable, and we were all talking about how he looked.
And then he started this season off slow again.

I'm all for saying Laf is looking great, but I'd like to be honest in that its been a journey.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

I mean, I get it. You don't think his overall play in the season has been weak and/or okay? Because just like you can quantify his last 10 games, why can't I quantify his first 10? Or next 10? Or the next? Why is it quantifiable for you and not for me? Because you don't like me being negative about his production? Because I can definitely quantify some shit stretches and stats for Laf, just like you an quantify stretches where he's produced.

Because the most recent 10 games are going to be usually more relevant especially to a younger player. You're just trying to be a contrarian.

 

[Chaels Arms]

I mean Laf also opened his career playing with mika and ck, and he did not look comfortable.

Laf then had a great period when panarin was out where he was playing with strome last year, where he looked alot more comfortable, and we were all talking about how he looked.
And then he started this season off slow again.

I'm all for saying Laf is looking great, but I'd like to be honest in that its been a journey.

So what about this equation refutes the idea that playing your young, high draft picks with good players very often is a bad idea?

This isn't that complicated. It never has been.

Play Kakko and Lafreniere with good players. All the time. If they do poorly let them figure it out. Especially when you really don't have any definitively better options on the roster.

If there's an issue with effort or discipline than sure, drop them in the lineup. Punish them. Put them in the doghouse. But that's never been their issue. Their issue is confidence and experience. Neither of those are served by playing ten minutes a night with bozos. If we were waiting for Lafreniere to start looking good playing with Chytil and Gauthier before putting him in the top 6 we'd still be waiting. None of what you're seeing from him now would be happening.

Gallant has stumbled on the right answer here. My suspicion is that was mostly by necessity but I don't really care. I'd just like to see this right decision repeated in the future for a coach who hopefully is here for a long time.

 

[Lgrsean]

He cannot sign an extension until after next off season.
Kakko is this off season.

Didn't Jack Hughes sign an extension this offseason? He was drafted a year before Laf.

 

[ReddestRum]

Because the most recent 10 games are going to be usually more relevant especially to a younger player. You're just trying to be a contrarian.

Like one of the posters above, you should use 11 games instead of 10. It'll give him an extra point.

I said he's been doing well lately.
I said his overall play is weak.
I said his play as of late is okay.
I called out "on pace" because his name was being put beside players with like what.. 50-60 points?
I called out "on pace" because it reminded like like the "on pace" main board thread comparing McDavid's pace production to Gretzky before his production fell off about 90%.

Last I check you're allowed to be a realist on these boards as well as someone who cheers. I gave credit where it was due and criticism where it was due. What else do you want?

 

[IDvsEGO]

Didn't Jack Hughes sign an extension this offseason? He was drafted a year before Laf.

I believe he signed as soon as the off-season ended?
Or maybe he had to wait until free agency began which turned the year over.

 

[IDvsEGO]

So what about this equation refutes the idea that playing your young, high draft picks with good players very often is a bad idea?

This isn't that complicated. It never has been.

Play Kakko and Lafreniere with good players. All the time. If they do poorly let them figure it out. Especially when you really don't have any definitively better options on the roster.

If there's an issue with effort or discipline than sure, drop them in the lineup. Punish them. Put them in the doghouse. But that's never been their issue. Their issue is confidence and experience. Neither of those are served by playing ten minutes a night with bozos. If we were waiting for Lafreniere to start looking good playing with Chytil and Gauthier before putting him in the top 6 we'd still be waiting. None of what you're seeing from him now would be happening.

Gallant has stumbled on the right answer here. My suspicion is that was mostly by necessity but I don't really care. I'd just like to see this right decision repeated in the future for a coach who hopefully is here for a long time.

It’s not a bad idea in isolation, but you have two competing concepts.

The coach wants to win now. He wants to show the locker room that effort and production are rewarded, and so he wants to get the most out of the players who are producing and encouraging those others to produce. no such thing as a free lunch

the gm looks long term. He sees high draft picks as his best way to maximize talent per cap space. he wants them producing at a ppg immediately while on that super cheap elc.

gallant gave Laf opportunities early in the season in the top 6. He struggled, so he went down. He got another opportunity and now he’s making the most of it.

When you play a kid who’s struggling with his assignment, and it costs his team, you want to sometimes give the kid less ice time, but more individual attention by coaches.
“Hey Laf, let’s go over this play, I want you to see the things you’re doing right, and I want you to see the things that’ll get you more time”


Gallant for all his win now mentality had helped kids develop, and it’s not by throwing them what they can’t handle, it’s about maximizing what they do best and putting them in positions to stack success on success.

 

[Levitate]

I still think you can't quite ignore the effect of the pandemic and weird circumstances over the past two years since Kakko and Lafreniere have been drafted. Lafreniere especially

E: Like, I don't think it's shocking that some of the players who spent a little more time in lower leagues than kakko and laf have had some stronger starts to their NHL careers

while kakko and laf were bouncing around a NHL lineup, having their seasons canceled, not getting full NHL training camps, dealing with all that kind of weird uncertainty in a league that at best they needed their full preparation and attention to be ready for (and at worst, they weren't ready for), players that had a little less pressure on them and were able to play and develop some confidence in lower leagues carried that over a bit better to the NHL while Kakko and Laf have still been trying to find their footing

 

[RagFinMet]

Is laf's value high enough to trade for zegras yet? :-p

 

[Lgrsean]

Do we use buzz phrases like "on pace" to cherry pick and justify a player's overall weak performance with spurts of okay performance for 12% of the season to players performing at said pace for the entirety of the season?

It reminds me of all the "on pace" main board posts about such and such player on pace for such and such, and it ages well because that player then suddenly stops performing at said pace. Lol.

What you say is mostly fair. The stat was cherry picked, and I’m being optimistic. But 11 games represent over 20% of lafs season so far, and it is his last 11 games. I’m hoping he can finish the season strong at or above the 11 game pace I cherry picked. At that point it would be close to half the season if he plays the remaining games.

 

[Hockey Gamer]

the whole "cherry picked" thing has become a meme throughout internet culture. Half of the time people misuse this expression. Simply pointing out or citing a certain thread of thought, whether it's a developing trend, case study or whatnot, doesn't mean it was "cherry picked".

It depends on what the person intended to demonstrate with that reference. If the person is saying "hey look at this one statistic I found, now ignore and forgive everything else that runs counter to it", then in that case it's fair to say they're cherry picking. However, if they're pointing out something to bring further nuance and analysis for a fuller picture, then no, that's not cherry picking at all. Context determines if citing an example is cherry picking or not. Simply pointing a statistic out, even if it's uncommon, doesn't necessarily make it cherry picking. It depends on what the user intended to demonstrate or discuss with it.

Whenever something simply gets cited now, it's "HEY THAT WAS CHERRY PICKED". It's also funny how whenever something that gets raised against someone else's argument, the probability of the opposing person saying "cherry picked" shoots up drastically.

 

[The Crypto Guy]

Didn't Jack Hughes sign an extension this offseason? He was drafted a year before Laf.

I believe he signed as soon as the off-season ended?
Or maybe he had to wait until free agency began which turned the year over.

He signed it on Nov 30th. Doesn't start until next season.

 

[duhmetreE]

He cannot sign an extension until after next off season.
Kakko is this off season.

He can sign an extension this offseason.

Kakko could have been extended once this season started.

 

[Peltz]

Ah yes, more rewriting of history.

I look forward to seeing this more frequently as time goes forward.

Lafreniere didn't start producing until he was given lots of ice time with good players. Before that, he was doing diddly squat. In fact, for the first couple of games with Kreider and Mika he was doing diddly squat.

It's the chicken and the egg. Except in this case there is a definitive series of cause and effect.

There is a contingent who would like to gaslight people into believing that Lafreniere somehow "earned" his way onto Kreider and Mika's line by producing with lesser players in a lesser role. That definitively never happened.

Let's not forget that when Kakko comes back, has a few bad games and then proceeds to look like a trash player on the 3rd and 4th lines.

I hope when Kakko comes back, he's on the Panarin Strome line. It's where he played his best hockey. And that line needs a more responsible back-checking forward on it.

 

[The New Russian Five]

I mean Laf also opened his career playing with mika and ck, and he did not look comfortable.

Laf then had a great period when panarin was out where he was playing with strome last year, where he looked alot more comfortable, and we were all talking about how he looked.
And then he started this season off slow again.

I'm all for saying Laf is looking great, but I'd like to be honest in that its been a journey.

This and there is still a lot he needs to do to get his game to "star" level. There's a handful of players I would draft over him if we did a redraft from that same season. I still think a lot of this can be fixed if the rangers just get him a skating coach to work with over the off-season. You can see the brain and the instincts are there, but he can't skate well enough to create openings for himself or establish a good forecheck.

 

[IDvsEGO]

This and there is still a lot he needs to do to get his game to "star" level. There's a handful of players I would draft over him if we did a redraft from that same season. I still think a lot of this can be fixed if the rangers just get him a skating coach to work with over the off-season. You can see the brain and the instincts are there, but he can't skate well enough to create openings for himself or establish a good forecheck.

See and with his play right now I’d heavily disagree.
He’s playing right now at a level where he’s flashing all the things necessary to be a star, and he’s doing them at 5v5.
If he finishes with around 40 points, after the start he had, and almost no pp points, that’s probably a 70-80 point season with pp time.

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

See and with his play right now I’d heavily disagree.
He’s playing right now at a level where he’s flashing all the things necessary to be a star, and he’s doing them at 5v5.
If he finishes with around 40 points, after the start he had, and almost no pp points, that’s probably a 70-80 point season with pp time.

i don't see it. Will be a solid player. Don't think he'll ever be elite.

 

[bhamill]

Let me pour a little kerosene on the "pace" fire...
Kid has 25 goals in his first 110 NHL games starting when he was 18 or just turned 19.
That is basically PACING for 20 goal full NHL seasons, in his D+1 and D+2. With no real power play time. Much of it with sub average line mates. During a f***ed up global pandemic that has messed with the development of most young players.
Ahahaha. Elite? Franchise? Nah he will be "solid" at best if not a total bust.

 

[duhmetreE]

i don't see it. Will be a solid player. Don't think he'll ever be elite.

what's your defintion of elite?

I see him falling somewhere in between Rantanen and Draisaitl. So, I'm most definitely optimistic he will be 'elite'.

Laffy will be a 70-80pts player next season if he takes Strome spot on PP1

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

what's your defintion of elite?

I see him falling somewhere in between Rantanen and Draisaitl. So, I'm most definitely optimistic he will be 'elite'.

Laffy will be a 70-80pts player next season if he takes Strome spot on PP1

So you see him as a top 10 forward in the league? Sorry i don't see it. They are both 100+ point players, and showed elite play early on. Laf has upgraded from useless to useful since being promoted but still doesn't look like anything special.

 

[IDvsEGO]

So you see him as a top 10 forward in the league? Sorry i don't see it. They are both 100+ point players, and showed elite play early on. Laf has upgraded from useless to useful since being promoted but still doesn't look like anything special.

rantanen has never had a 100 point season, and drai benefits from mcdavid far more than mcdavid benefits from drai.